97 réponses à ce sujet

[AlphaDormante]

There are a lot of gray areas, but I overall support the genophage. With Wrex at least, it looks to me like the changes he's pushing are focused on creating a more "civil" culture among the krogan...placing more importance on unification and discouraging needless slaughter to an extent. Those are the sorts of social behaviors that Mordin cited when criticizing the uplifting of the krogan.

However, wiping an entire culture of an attitude so deeply ingrained seems like a hopeless task, even for Wrex - more so when the lifespan of its individuals is as long as it is. Even if there is change within the krogans' behavior, the time it would take in comparison to the speed at which the rest of the galaxy moves along...there are too many things to count that could go wrong during that time, not excluding genophage business itself.

In short, I think Wrex is doing a good thing from a good-bad thing, but I have my doubts that it's going to work out. This also doesn't account for Wreav, whatever that nice fellow is doing.

Modifié par AlphaDormante, 30 juin 2011 - 10:12 .

[Wulfram]

It's fairly obvious that it's going be cured someday, somehow - the fact that Shepard's come across two credible attempts shows that. Better the cure be used to rally the Krogan against the Reapers than for it to become the instrument of people like Saren or Weyrlock Guld.

[Mathy16]

Paragon interrupt...

[Robhuzz]

Since I doubt curing the genophage will magically add 1 billion krogan soldiers and 1000 krogan battleships over the course of a few weeks I don't think curing the Genophage is going to matter much. It has been shown on numerous occasions the Krogan cannot be trusted. Curing the Genophage will cause another war with the Krogan as the Krogan will agressively expand again, I don't think even Wrex can stop this. Never mind what happens when Wrex eventually dies (or is killed). That said even though I kept the genophage cure in every playthrough I doubt I'll be curing the Krogan if I get that choice in ME3.

It's fairly obvious that it's going be cured someday, somehow - the fact that Shepard's come across two credible attempts shows that. Better the cure be used to rally the Krogan against the Reapers than for it to become the instrument of people like Saren or Weyrlock Guld.

Like Mordin said, the salarian STG continues to monitor the situation. If it becomes apparent the Krogan are close to finding a cure or are adapting to the genophage, the Salarians will step in again to renew the genophage. I doubt the Krogan will ever be cured if it doesn't happen in ME3.

Modifié par Robhuzz, 30 juin 2011 - 10:47 .

[GiggleLooper]

nhsk wrote...

You never stabilize a culture by meddling in their affairs. Change has to come from within, not without. You can offer outside help, if they ask, but not force change upon it.

Ummm fairly certain the arms embargo, and restriction of spaceship production that you suggested in the previous post is meddling in their affairs. And by restricting them you are forcing them to change, 'you can't do or have this unless you change' is forcing them. Stupid.

[Majin Paul]

I'd probably go for curing the genophage, even if it was to a small number of the population at first and then slowly grow the population who are cured whilst keeping an eye on Krogan activities.

[Ieldra]

Spectre_907 wrote...
I have no intention of curing the genophage but I'd rather have Maelon's research data and not need it. The genophage isn't detrimental to maintaining a viable krogan population. The primary contributor to their 'dying race' status is their culture.

This.

What I'd do is get the krogan to accept an obligation to control their population somewhat, then create a new genophage with a lesser reduction in fertility. Wait a hundred years, then check on the progress. Repeat until either the krogan can and will control their population completely on their own or re-introduce an older genophage version.

The problem, of course, is to get the recalcitrant krogan to accept such an obligation in the first place. If they cannot, it might be that the galaxy is better off without them.

(Yes, I notice that parallel: if we humans cannot control our population, then Earth *will* be better off without us)

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 juin 2011 - 12:03 .

[Goneaviking]

Parion wrote...

The genophage was the the right, moral choice.
The krogan need to quit thier whining. If they don't like it they should cure it themselves, otherwise they should man up an learn to live with it instead of acting like a bunch of spoiled children.

nhsk wrote...

You never stabilize a culture by meddling in
their affairs. Change has to come from within, not without. You can
offer outside help, if they ask, but not force change upon it.

Pffft. Evolutionary pressure comes from without more often than within, and that's all the genophage is.

Evolutionary pressure came, and they evolved. Then the aliens came and sterilised them again. And will come again, and again, and again until the Krogan find a way to do to the aliens what was done to them.

I vote for a plague to sterilise the Salarians. See how they like a little evolutionary pressure.

[Kaiser Shepard]

"The krogan aren't ready for the genophage to be cured. You can't risk this data being stolen, and I know you can recreate it."

"Yes. Only safe course. Wiping drive."

[l DryIce l]

ThePwener wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

JayTheWolf wrote...

 Take the genophage away. Cure it. It was wrong to do in the first place. 
But if they uprise again, I'd just kill them all. The genophage was below the belt, IMO. The Krogan were the strongest species in the galaxy and everyone knew it, so the salarians and turians decided "Hey, let's try and even the battlefield.".
Genocide preferable to genophage. Why mutate a species instead of giving them a glorious death? Krogan live to have an honorable death. Patriarch says this, a little more elegantly than I can remember. 
In the end, everyone was ****ed over. Now the Reapers are here and no one has a brute species to deal with the heavy hitting, the Krogan hate everyone, and that's just a bunch of BS. 

It wasn't like that at all. The Krogan were taking over already inhabited worlds by force. They did not negotiate, and had no plan to stop expanding. What's preferable? Going to war against the Krogan and have heavy losses on both sides, or affect Krogan birthrate and reduce their numbers? 

The problem is that the Genophage did not work as intended... at first. It was slowly killing them and then they grew an immunity to it overtime. Then Mordin and the pack of souless proffesors made it even worse then it was originally and then if it wasn't for Shepard (if you took the cure in ME2) the Krogan would have eventually died out. 

The Krogan would have eventually died out? You know this how? Mordin said that they could have wiped them out, but the team made the modifications to stabilize the population, not destroy it. Advancing the Krogans before they were ready was the wrong choice, but that's long gone; it has no relevance to this situation. 

[Akizora]

Curing the Genophage will do nothing against the current problem, unless Krogan are born seconds after being conceived and then pop out fully matured as warriors. So no, I won't cure it, the Krogan are dangerous when they don't have a common enemy to fight - they would turn against the rest of the galaxy.

[Aimi]

I prefer the term "Krogan Question", like the Eastern Question and the German Question. "Problem" sounds too Holocausty - "die Endlösung der Kroganfrage"?

[Whatever42]

The genophage was necessary. At some point, curing the genophage will be the right thing to do. Is that point now? In a mere 2 years, has Wrex sufficiently transformed Krogan society to a point where they will control their own birthrates? If not, we have a problem.

The Salarians elevated the Krogan to fight the Rachni. Mordin thinks this was unethical because the Krogran were not ready and it resulted in a violent confrontation that almost led to their extinction and did lead to the genophage.

Now if we give them the genophage research to convince them to fight the Reapers and they are still not ready, aren't we repeating the same unethical choice? Aren't we returning the Krogan to an out-of-control birthrate which will result in us possibly having to obliterate them just to serve our own needs?

I find this odd that this is the paragon choice, really. It should be the renegade choice.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 30 juin 2011 - 02:04 .

[KenKenpachi]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...
I have no intention of curing the genophage but I'd rather have Maelon's research data and not need it. The genophage isn't detrimental to maintaining a viable krogan population. The primary contributor to their 'dying race' status is their culture.

This.

What I'd do is get the krogan to accept an obligation to control their population somewhat, then create a new genophage with a lesser reduction in fertility. Wait a hundred years, then check on the progress. Repeat until either the krogan can and will control their population completely on their own or re-introduce an older genophage version.

The problem, of course, is to get the recalcitrant krogan to accept such an obligation in the first place. If they cannot, it might be that the galaxy is better off without them.

(Yes, I notice that parallel: if we humans cannot control our population, then Earth *will* be better off without us)

At the very least it would be nice to remove you from the human race. Its funny how screaming eugenics have been proven wrong, again, again and again. No race is as cruel as humanity, that can judge killing its young as a "needed" out come. Wars or space exploration will handle the dreaded population climb. War has always been good for that. And gee fancy it that the only nation that uses such a policy is going to dump it fully in a couple of years. And ONLY had it as the previous leaders made a cluster **** of the country. In fact said nation has a two child policy now, and is much more lienant on having more. And is set in 2014 to ice the policy all together, while the populations of the West die.

As to the Korgans. Hmm. It was wrong to use population control no matter the terms. Its more humaine to have a blockade and bomb anything moving out to dust. At least it promts an even fight, and a chance for battle. But then again I don't see the krogan as that big of a threat if you can mold them, or give them a puprose....such as shock infantry for the Council?  After all only the smallest section of the Milky Way has been controlled or seen, surely other threats will rise up.

daqs wrote...

I prefer the term "Krogan Question", like the Eastern Question and the German Question. "Problem" sounds too Holocausty - "die Endlösung der Kroganfrage"?

Also agreed. Though Jews or Slavs don't breed in the thousands, the jest remains the same.

Modifié par KenKenpachi, 30 juin 2011 - 02:08 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

daqs wrote...

I prefer the term "Krogan Question", like the Eastern Question and the German Question. "Problem" sounds too Holocausty - "die Endlösung der Kroganfrage"?

"Frage" means question as well, though.

Still, the whole krogan matter is more of a (potential) holocausty situation than anything. As Mordin so aptly put it: "genophage or genocide".

[gunswordfist]

Krogan, priority number one. Even over humans. I will make sure they survive and go in the right direction by making sure the female Krogan stays alive and does her part and that Wrex's stays alive and gets whatever resources he needs for the Krogan to survive.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

My Paragon Shepard has always supported the Genophage and will continue to do so, even while being nice to all the Krogan. Why save the galaxy from the Reapers only to have it overrun by the Krogan? Same with the Rachnai.

[Aimi]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

daqs wrote...

I prefer the term "Krogan Question", like the Eastern Question and the German Question. "Problem" sounds too Holocausty - "die Endlösung der Kroganfrage"?

"Frage" means question as well, though.

Still, the whole krogan matter is more of a (potential) holocausty situation than anything. As Mordin so aptly put it: "genophage or genocide".

Yeah, but I mean, Holocausty from the point of view of the Hitlerites - the issue is similar, but the meaning seems more sinister.  I dunno, I just feel like it has Wannsee Conference connotations.  

[GodWood]

Curing it creates deaths.
Leaving it prevents births.


I prefer the latter.

[-Skorpious-]

I agree with Mordin's summary of the Krogan as a whole - uplifting sentient beings with the intelligence equivalent to cavemen and arming them with nuclear weapons will always end with bloodshed. With that said, I also agree that using the Genophage was the right call - at least initially.

However, I kept the cure in ME2. Why? With Wrex leading the Korgan (not sure about Wreav), perhaps there is a chance that their species can naturally develop to assimilate into modern galactic civilization.

Of course I need to play ME3 first to determine if curing the Genophage so soon is the correct choice, but as it is now, I find it hard to watch the Krogan slowly die out because of another species ignorance.

[GodWood]

-Skorpious- wrote...
I agree with Mordin's summary of the Krogan as a whole - uplifting sentient beings with the intelligence equivalent to cavemen and arming them with nuclear weapons will always end with bloodshed.

Do you consider the survivors in the Fallout universe to be as smart as cavemen?

Because that's basically what the krogan were, descendants of those who had created a nuclear fallout by themselves (meaning somewhere in their history was a krogan as smart as Einstein)

[KyreneZA]

I'll just have to shoot Wrex again... (and again... and again...) damn regenerating krogan!

[Labrev]

I saved Maelon's data as a break-the-glass-in-emergency sort of thing if needed in the war with the Reapers. But no, until I'm convinced that the krogan can enter the galactic community again as a responsible and contributing member, I will not support curing the genophage. And after seeing Tuchanka, even with Wrex in charge, they clearly have a long way to go.

[Whatever42]

daqs wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

daqs wrote...

I prefer the term "Krogan Question", like the Eastern Question and the German Question. "Problem" sounds too Holocausty - "die Endlösung der Kroganfrage"?

"Frage" means question as well, though.

Still, the whole krogan matter is more of a (potential) holocausty situation than anything. As Mordin so aptly put it: "genophage or genocide".

Yeah, but I mean, Holocausty from the point of view of the Hitlerites - the issue is similar, but the meaning seems more sinister.  I dunno, I just feel like it has Wannsee Conference connotations.  

What jews, gypies, and homosexual numbers were increasing exponentially, overwhelming their ability to provide for their people so they ran amok and invaded other countries? They then refused any overture at peace, continuing to invade and attack their neighbours without pause or mercy?

Yeah, sounds identical.

[-Skorpious-]

GodWood wrote...

-Skorpious- wrote...
I agree with Mordin's summary of the Krogan as a whole - uplifting sentient beings with the intelligence equivalent to cavemen and arming them with nuclear weapons will always end with bloodshed.

Do you consider the survivors in the Fallout universe to be as smart as cavemen?

Because that's basically what the krogan were, descendants of those who had created a nuclear fallout by themselves (meaning somewhere in their history was a krogan as smart as Einstein)

Perhaps I could have worded that better. What I meant to say was that their mindset and culture were equivalent to modern-day cavemen; not their ability to adapt using technology. 

Anyways, I'm not going to potentially doom an entire species to extinction because they made an unfortunate decision in their past. Afterall, weren't we ourselves on the verge of repeating the Krogan's mistake during the Cold War's Cuban missle crisis? 

But thats not the point. The real question is whether or not the average Krogan mindset has matured since the Krogan Rebellions. Can they put past grudges aside and peacefully join the galaxies other races? Can they abandon their lust for needless violence? I'll admit, I don't believe they have, but I would prefer to wait until I play ME3 before I make any final decisions. 

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 30 juin 2011 - 04:30 .