271 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

Undertone wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Do they need to be indoctrinated?

They were always evil and idiots.

Uh-uh and yet somehow they continue to persist and have a large influence within the galaxy. And somehow have a sufficient army now at ME3.

You can call the army plot magic if you want. I call Cerberus failings plot magic then, since Shepard has to do something right like visit Overlord, Pragia etc.

Cerberus always had an army.

Miranda few times said they have military divisions.
Cerberus might not have same numbers as Geth in ME1, but they are powerful enough to make attack and run tactics and to do heavy damage( saving female Krogan for example) and to guard important locations( Geth base holding a Reaper).



Also Illusive Man did send clean up crew on Pragia right after Jack's escape. How did you missed that?
And it's Jack that sent Shepard on Pragia, not he.


As for Overlord?
Well it's much faster and better to send elite squad who is experienced in fighting Geth to clear area of hostiles then send an army.
Which could have came after Shepard to do a clean up.

Modifié par Mesina2, 30 juin 2011 - 09:06 .

[Undertone]

Lumikki wrote...

Seboist wrote...


Go talk to EDI post Collector abduction of the crew about the SR-2. She says Cerberus recommended the Alliance co-develop a ship with the Turians so they could get the latter's technology.

Yeah, but it was not Ceberus who builded SR-1. You can't take full credit for few words.
Later Cerberus "stole" the Normandy design from Aliance.

Cerberus and the Alliance is the same thing...Cerberus is promoting the Alliance and humankind and doing immoral stuff while the Alliance is keeping "good face" in front of the Council and the other races. It always has been one and the same and still is. If the Alliance trully wanted to destroy Cerberus they could have done so by now.

[Seboist]

Lumikki wrote...

Seboist wrote...


Go talk to EDI post Collector abduction of the crew about the SR-2. She says Cerberus recommended the Alliance co-develop a ship with the Turians so they could get the latter's technology.

Yeah, but it was not Ceberus who builded SR-1. You can't take full credit for few words.
Later Cerberus "stole" the Normandy design from Alliance.
Normandy SR-1 was fully Alliance ship.
Normandy SR-2 was fully Cerberus ship.

Don't take credits where it doens't belong.

Cerberus was still officially part of the Alliance then. :happy:

[Lumikki]

Cerberus is not same thing that Alliance.

Cerberus belongs to Aliance only by been humans, but they are two different organations.

Modifié par Lumikki, 30 juin 2011 - 09:09 .

[Undertone]

Mesina2 wrote...

Undertone wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Do they need to be indoctrinated?

They were always evil and idiots.

Uh-uh and yet somehow they continue to persist and have a large influence within the galaxy. And somehow have a sufficient army now at ME3.

You can call the army plot magic if you want. I call Cerberus failings plot magic then, since Shepard has to do something right like visit Overlord, Pragia etc.

Cerberus always had an army.

Miranda few times said they have military divisions.
Cerberus might not have same numbers as Geth in ME1, but they are powerful enough to make attack and run tactics and to do heavy damage( saving female Krogan for example) and to guard important locations( Geth base holding a Reaper).



Also Illusive Man did send clean up crew on Pragia right after Jack's escape. How did you missed that?
And it's Jack that sent Shepard on Pragia, not he.


As for Overlord?
Well it's much faster and better to sent elite squad who is experienced in fighting Geth to clear are of hostiles then sent an army.
Which could have came after Shepard to do a clean up.

You misunderstood me I think. I was saying a lot of the Cerberus failings from a meta perspective is because well Shepard needs to do something within the game you know.

Anyway your argument that Cerberus is evil and idiots is well wrong on many accounts but honestly I'm tired of explaining why since obviously you Cerberus haters ignore any evidence presented and keep your yelling "Lol CERBERUS  IS EVIL LET ME KILL ILLUSIVE MAN AWSOME" or let's destroy the base to show TIM the middle finger. Uh-uh.

[Undertone]

Lumikki wrote...

Cerberus is not same thing that Alliance.

Cerberus belongs to Aliance only by been humans, but they are two different organations.

No, they are not. And there are tons of evidence in the game for that. In terms of diplomacy Teh Alliance is the human PR agency while Cerberus does all the stuff to actually promote humans and keep them at good competition level with the other species.

It's something that the Alliance can always say "it's teh evil Cerberus, we got nothing to do with it" to the Council if they get accussed for something but actually Cerberus is funded secretly by key Alliance military personal.

Isn't it obvious?

[Lumikki]

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus was still officially part of the Alliance then. :happy:

Check you time line. Cerberus started to to action agaist Alliance before Normandy was build.
Admiral Kohuku started to investigate Cerberus activity before Normandy.

Modifié par Lumikki, 30 juin 2011 - 09:19 .

[Undertone]

Lumikki wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus was still officially part of the Alliance then. :happy:

Check you time line. Cerberus started to to action agaist Alliance before Normandy was build.
Admiral Kohuku started to investigate Cerberus activity before Normany.

As I said, that's just a front for the Council. And no it was after the Normandy was already built. Hell you go to the Citadel with it.

Modifié par Undertone, 30 juin 2011 - 09:19 .

[Lumikki]

Undertone wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Cerberus was still officially part of the Alliance then. :happy:

Check you time line. Cerberus started to to action agaist Alliance before Normandy was build.
Admiral Kohuku started to investigate Cerberus activity before Normany.

As I said, that's just a front for the Council. And no it was after the Normandy was already built. Hell you go to the Citadel with it.

2157 Cerberus was creates same time as First Contact War
2160 The Systems Alliance Parliament is formed.
2165 Cerberus does first sabotase agaist system Alliance by stealing antimater from Alliance.
2171 Cerberus assassinates Pope Clement XVI on Earth to promote someone more with Cerberus ideal.
...

You are maybe right that Normandy was allready build before Kohuku started investigate. Hard to say as Kohuku started inventigate year 2182 and Normandy was take to use in 2183 with lead of Anderson. That's year later, so I assume Normandy could have been ready before the invenstigation, even if it was not in use yet. So, same year 2183 Shepards gets the Normandy, so Anderson did not have it long at all. Shepard also take over Admiral Kohuku's investigation at same year 2183 as Admiral's invenstigation was was blocked and Shepard as Spectre could do what's needed. So Admiral Kohuku asked Shepards help.

Modifié par Lumikki, 30 juin 2011 - 10:16 .

[ME-ParaShep]

Undertone wrote...

hwf wrote...

They don't have to be indoctrinated.
Indoctrination introduces a certain doctrine, belief system, ideas, strategies by "force" or coercion.

There
is another way you can reach that doctrine; by coming to those
conclusions due to your own research and analysis - ie. Cerberus agrees
with with that Reapers are doing and have been doing for so long.
Superficially this looks very much like indoctrination, but isn't.

So you are saying ME2 is pointless then. Because clearly Cerberus is fighting against the Reapers there. Where do you get that they agree with the Reapers and *have been doing for so long* ??

Arcian wrote...

Undertone wrote...

At least it's more interesting to play the game this way then having a magic blue button that fixes it all. Aren't you boring?

So being a colossal failure AND a massive, hated douchebag in every possible way is fun to you?

Hihohahahuhihoho.jpg

Colossal failure how? Clearly Cerberus have successes and failures like every other organizations. Being a person for whom results justifies the means doesn't make you a douchebag. All people in power have to cut loose ends and do immoral things for the greater good and for a bigger number of people. It's called power and using it.

I do thank you though for not inserting a picture and making me waste my time scrolling more.

I'm replying to the bolded statements, but first I'd like to ask: Would you support slavery in your district if the petition to have slaves were to be lifted? Would you initiate a war with a country you like just so you can steal it's goods? (E.G. Petrol and agriculture) Lastly, If you were TIM himself, would you be able to survive an invasion of giant sapient constructs annihilating numerous worlds and civilizations all the while surviving attacks from many civilizations and organizations?

If you say "Yes" to any of those questions, I want you to explain how Cerberus can be so successful and able to procure a means to an end and vast benefits for themselves when majority of the most powerful organizations in the galaxy is hunting them down and out to kill any one of their members after what they've done in ME 3? The way I see it, doing devious deeds to acquire the best results does succeed sometimes, but doing so all the time isn't the smartest idea. Take for example Cerberus' actions in Overlord. They used David as a tool to find a way to communicate with Geth. Look how that turned out? The Rogue VI almost escaped and so many "innocent" people who were working on the project were murdered.

Doing rash things doesn't always make results work out. In fact, it makes their reputation a lot worse than it already is.  People who sacrifice other people gain something are people that don't deserve to be cared for in my book. Those types of people will never find true happiness in the end even though whatever they accomplish is remarkable. Their unjust actions can't be justified; almost like the genophage. The difference between the STG's actions is that it can be reversed. It's possible to fix a wrong and make something better out of it if things can be properly worked out. People may say that "Sacrifices are necessary", but sacrificing people only causes more pain and suffering for other people in the world. More fights, battles, and wars occur because of people who sacrifice others for their own appeals.

Do you think it's a bright idea if you waste resources on a way that shouldn't have happened in the first place? Especially if one side caused it because of hatred for another countries culture and misunderstandings? That's just being immature. It's risking lives, begets anger in societies, forges racism, creates a reason to support violence and extremism, and increases tensions among areas where different ethnicites are held. All of which are for the WRONG reasons. We don't need to create tensions and bloodshed based off of immoral actions. If anything, it's smarter and a better logical method to appease to other moral people's motives. It's saving lives and finding the smarter, more secure, less risky, and still producing great results that makes lives better. If you want to be a dominant player go right ahead, but don't ever risk lives. Those people will regret doing so.

Another prime example of why immorality doesn't cut it is Jacob Taylor's Loyalty Mission. His father became acting Captain and made a harem of lesser intelligent women, killed off his subordinates, and kept all of the good food to himself and his officers (in which he killed them off as well when the time came). In the end, he had his fun, but when he wanted out, his immorality got him arrested or killed.

The point of these examples is that immorality and covert action in terms of negativity is not a smart methodology. Even though it may sometimes procure results, the actions won't ever be as forgivable and as safe as doing the good things. Doing good things gives better rewards in the long run and it keeps you out of trouble; cutting off unnecessary loose ends. Doing the good things also is low risk and still productive. You can help out your own species and you can help out others as well. If others are moral as well, everybody flourishes. No bloodshed, more allies, more happiness, less hatred, less to worry about, less stress, more reasons to live, more ways to have fun, don't have to worry about being assassinated or something along those lines, and most importantly.. "Every step of the path you take is less than the amount you have to do to get something done" if only you do the good things.

Cerberus isn't being the good organization. It doesn't have to be a good group to get the best results, but it sure as hell hurts your organization and everyone else involved with you in the long run and that's not what anybody would want in a critical moment like war and diplomacy.

[lovgreno]

I know I often mock Failberus for being losers (failtastic goals, methods, agenda and results) but even so I think TIMmy deserves to be a better villain than just a puppet for the reapers. He is neither stupid nor evil, just blinded by idealism and isolation. A tragic but sadly not rare fate even for real life people who had the potential for greatness but wasted it. Going out like Gollum however would be a more glorious and well deserved end for him. I like the idea of TIMmy getting the last laugh on Shepard like that.

[corrin1984]

Really, I still think it makes perfect sense that Cerberus is indoctrinated. We've seen that the Reapers, according to history, wiped out galactic civilization over and over; yet two species, the Collectors and Keepers, survived as slaves. If TIM wants humanity to reign, then it makes sense that he'd have one hand in helping Shepard defeat the Reapers, while the other is working WITH them in case he fails. Either way, Humanity is either the savior race of the Galaxy, superior in every respect to the other Council races, or it's the only one left and then used as the new Collectors. In an indoctrinated person's mindset, slavery is better than death.

[Lumikki]

Interesting points.

First I do agree that TIM deservers better, he has been fighting agaist reapers and trying to keep humans alive and strong.

Collectors, aren't just slaves, they appears to be like a drone with no distinctions between individuals. They are little like Geths as they seem to have common like mind. They do act they own, like Geths also do, but they are all same minded. Point been Geths and Collectors are very similar, but other is syntetic life form while other is organic.

Keepers how ever, are created as tool to keep stuff working. Meaning they are totally harmless. How ever, are they created by Reapers or Protheans is question. Because if they are created by Protheans, then Reapers haven't met them yet as 50 000 cycle. So, will they be destroyed or not is question.

Point been the slave teory is very interesting, but is slave the correct word? Because it seem that both Keepers and Collectors aren't much more than tools. They don't seem to have induviduality same way as we humans and many other races do.

Modifié par Lumikki, 30 juin 2011 - 12:03 .

[Phaedon]

Undertone wrote...
I love it how you avoid clear evidence of Cerberus success and just shove it under there somewhere. Fact of the matter is all you Cerberus haters

Accusatory tone already? Cool.

are clearly biased uncapable of admitting that Cerberus does things (not everything) successful. And the fact of the matter is you are biased based on emotions and moral reasoning whereas logic and results

By not everything, you mean that they have a 35% success rate at best at anything that they do?
"We" are biased due to emotions and moral reasoning?

We sure as hell are. And let me clear at this, if you really think that anyone who tortures innocents and abducting children is not evil (yes, that's moral reasoning) and not your ally, then you won't function very well as a member of society. And I am not even attacking you.

I dislike utilitirianism, it's true. I don't finding it disguisting however. 
Sometimes you have to achieve goals that help others by sacrificing your own morals. The universe is not made up of black and white, I think that we can agree on that.

The goals that Cerberus sets are disguisting to say the least.
Abducting dozens of children from their families to pick out one single biotic?
Killing units of marines to...test their devices?
Assasinating people just to change the political climate?

What does all this have to do with saving billions of people from the Reapers? Nothing.

These are just minor goals to ensure human domination over everyone else. If you think that people are biased because they value equality and helping others, then that's your problem, not "ours".

is what counts. Some Cerberus operations do fail indeed yet they always produce results in one aspect or another. The game gives you enough facts where Cerberus has promoted something or succeed in one area or another. You just choose to ignore blinded by your morality.

What exactly has Cerberus achieved?
They failed to interact with the geth properly, because a silly scientist thought that if you keep someone awake for days they'll be fine, and not have problems with their brain.
They failed to create a special biotic for their own use, at least twice.
They failed to achieve human domination, it is Shepard who can choose that based on his choices in ME1.

Have they resurrected Shepard? They have been of some use. No one denies that, but to consider that and rebuilding a ship as a success  that makes it worth all of they have done, seeing as how both projects end up is just wrong.

Fact of the matter is Cerberus is Black Ops just like the STG and just like any other black ops that the other species have. Maybe you should check what duties black ops have.

Black ops? Well this explains why they killed Kahoku and both Anderson and Hackett raided their bas- oh wait.

They are certainly not black ops of the Alliance, but they certainly have a lot of allies from within the Alliance. Besides, that justifies nothing. You bring up STG as a good example, what's next, CIA?

 There's nothing wrong with promoting our species instead of others. Believing in ever lasting peace and not having the necessary counter-measures to stay strong and competetive is pure blind idealism.

Plato, Anaxagoras, and Kant would probably frown at you.

There is nothing wrong with human domination? There's no problem with war?

Good then. Let me know when another race or species treat you as a second class citinzen, burn your house and kill your family.

Also research, development and discoveries often happen through immoral means, war and so on. If you believe otherwise you should just look at the real world. The means might be wrong, but the end justifies it - in the end more people are saved. Being competetive and having the ability to be competitive are positive things.

Research comes through war?
There's only one group in history that believed that, afaik. And don't bring Einstein to the argument.

Maybe you should change the prefix "anti" from antagonism with "syn" now and then. It certainly wouldn't hurt, and you wouldn't be any less competitive. Team work helps.

Now, there is no problem being competitive with other species, but that doesn't require killing people or doing anything immoral. 

I also think I told you in some other thread that racism is part of the psyche - conscious and sub-conscious. It's not something inherently bad, it's something that happens whether we like it or not. I do it, you do it, everyone does it. You might not verbally or physically act upon it yet you still judge things from the moment you see it. And that's just the way it is - like it or not.

Racism is not inherently bad? That's all I wanted to know, thank you.

Prejudism and hating on differences is a weakness and it hurts other people. You think that ulitirianists don't accept that?

They do. That's why they try not to be prejudiced.

EDIT:
You also said that BioWare made them from "morally gray" to "evil".

That makes no sense for two reasons:
-They were never "morally gray". They were amoral and proud of it, and their actions were immoral according to normative ethics.
-Why would Cerberus be evil now? Because they are attacking you? 

Evil is a moral term, if you don't believe in ethics, then don't use it.

Cerberus is as we have said, amoral, and have no problem with killing you if it is profitable.

Modifié par Phaedon, 30 juin 2011 - 12:16 .

[CroGamer002]

^+100

[crimzontearz]

seriously

no one saw this coming since the very beginning of ME2?

Cerberus manages to screw up EVERY single project they work on aside for weapon developement (and even then we are not 100% sure). They eventually start messing with reaper tech, how long were people thinking it would take for them to screw up there too? It was kinda obvious that that was the intended path.

[Ahriman]

ThePwener wrote...

[SPOILERS]

Bioware said we'd have to buy ME3 to find the reason that Cerberus wants Shepard dead. I thought there was going to be a great reason only BW could deliver. A month later I see a ME3 demo and one of the developers of BW says that they're indoctrinated. Then Shepard himself says they're indoctrinated. At first I thought BW wanted to mislead us, but minutes later I saw Cerberus forces in what they said was a Heretic Geth base, and then a Reaper spider thing comes out, ect.

That really annoys me, especially because Casey personally and pretty clear told that Cerberus' reasons will be kept in secret. "That was a joke", Casey? Still part of me believes that this is just red herring and something else is coming.

[Someone With Mass]

So this ancient machine race arrives, and one its most effective weapon is to brainwash their victims, yet it comes like a total shock to some people when one of the enemies in ME3 suffers from the indoctrination when the Reapers are everywhere and think it's cheap of them to use indoctrination as one of the reasons why Cerberus is attacking Shepard? Really?

It's what the Reapers do, if you haven't noticed. They indoctrinate people to destroy the resistance from within. It makes sense that they'd pick a group which consists of humans that have been subjects to indoctrination many times before as their puppets.

[Kaiser Shepard]

On one hand, I'd like to speculate that the Illusive Man is merely playing the cards he's given, waiting for the right time to turn against his new machine masters.

On the other, the series has lost much of its subtlety, so it wouldn't totally surprise me if they went with the simple indoctrination route.

[HTTP 404]

this isn't a surprise. in fact I look forward to kicking some Cerberus butt, regardless of indoctrination.

Also, I get more tired of the "thats a cliche" argument....its getting "cliche"

Reaper 1:  should we indoctrinate Cerberus?

Reaper 2: nah, thats too cliche.  we did that in me1 and me2

Reaper 1: but isnt that one of our attack methods?

Reaper 2: nah, I am bored of that attack....

Modifié par HTTP 404, 30 juin 2011 - 01:28 .

[corrin1984]

Whole thing is... Cerberus doesn't really screw up everything they touch. Look at Jack. Yeah... hundreds died... but she's one of the most powerful, if not possibly THE most powerful Biotic human ever. Sherpard was brought back from the dead. Project Overlord had a human controlling the Geth. They've bred Rachni, created husks, infiltrated the Alliance Military and different points in the Galactic community... this isn't a group run by Gargamel and Azrael from the Smurfs here. They may not be a very huge organization, but they are everywhere. Heck, they are mostly responsible for Biotic humans in general(won't spoil the novels) TIM has done a lot to elevate humanity past the other races. Most of it is unethical, deranged and misguided... but that doesn't lessen it's impact. If the Reapers have all of Cerberus on their side... that's a VERY bad sign for humanity and the galactic community.

Modifié par corrin1984, 30 juin 2011 - 02:20 .

[littlezack]

corrin1984 wrote...

Whole thing is... Cerberus doesn't really screw up everything they touch. Look at Jack. Yeah... hundreds died... but she's one of the most powerful, if not possibly THE most powerful Biotic human ever. Sherpard was brought back from the dead. Project Overlord had a human controlling the Geth. They've bred Rachni, created husks, infiltrated the Alliance Military and different points in the Galactic community... this isn't a group run by Gargamel and Azrael from the Smurfs here. They may not be a very huge organization, but they are everywhere. Heck, they are mostly responsible for Biotic humans in general(won't spoil the novels) TIM has done a lot to elevate humanity past the other races. Most of it is unethical, deranged and misguided... but that doesn't lessen it's impact. If the Reapers have all of Cerberus on their side... that's a VERY bad sign for humanity and the galactic community.

Jack's really not a good example of them 'succeeding'. Yes, they made an extremely powerful biotic...but the goal was to make an extremely powerful biotic that they could control. And they can't control Jack worth a damn.

[HTTP 404]

littlezack wrote...

corrin1984 wrote...

Whole thing is... Cerberus doesn't really screw up everything they touch. Look at Jack. Yeah... hundreds died... but she's one of the most powerful, if not possibly THE most powerful Biotic human ever. Sherpard was brought back from the dead. Project Overlord had a human controlling the Geth. They've bred Rachni, created husks, infiltrated the Alliance Military and different points in the Galactic community... this isn't a group run by Gargamel and Azrael from the Smurfs here. They may not be a very huge organization, but they are everywhere. Heck, they are mostly responsible for Biotic humans in general(won't spoil the novels) TIM has done a lot to elevate humanity past the other races. Most of it is unethical, deranged and misguided... but that doesn't lessen it's impact. If the Reapers have all of Cerberus on their side... that's a VERY bad sign for humanity and the galactic community.

Jack's really not a good example of them 'succeeding'. Yes, they made an extremely powerful biotic...but the goal was to make an extremely powerful biotic that they could control. And they can't control Jack worth a damn.

she did fight the collectors, as Cerberus wanted