271 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

jack was not made to fight the collectors....that was a contingency

even tho Cerberus succeedes partially in some of their goals ultimately they fail in the long run

the Rachni and the Creepers (both backfired), Jack (she is uncontrollable). Shepard (can backfire majorly especially if he destroys the collector base....hell the entire Lazarus cell goes rogue, Project overlord....yeah need I go on?

[Hatchetman77]

I have a feeling that there is more to the story than just Cerberus being indoctrinated.  TIM is the Mass Effect version of Lex Luthor, he's got something up his sleeve. Betcha he has a cure for indoctrination, and at the last minute he'll activate it and all the reaper's slaves will turn against them, or even TIM may have figured out how to indoctrinate the reapers.  He's using the reapers to eliminate all those pesky aliens and non believing anti-Cerberus humans.  TIM is the real threat, not the reapers.

I'm calling it now, there will be a 3rd act team up between Shepard and Harbringer to bring down TIM... 

[Labrev]

If it is, in fact, Reaper indoctrination, then yes. Cliche and anti-climatic.

But, it might not be. Remember when Miranda talked about implanting Shepard with a control-chip? Maybe they are actually being indoctrinated by TIM.

[corrin1984]

crimzontearz wrote...

jack was not made to fight the collectors....that was a contingency

even tho Cerberus succeedes partially in some of their goals ultimately they fail in the long run

the Rachni and the Creepers (both backfired), Jack (she is uncontrollable). Shepard (can backfire majorly especially if he destroys the collector base....hell the entire Lazarus cell goes rogue, Project overlord....yeah need I go on?

True, Jack wasn't made to fight Collector's. TBH, we aren't sure what the full intent of the Project was. However, as TIM's MO seems to be elevating Humanity. Creating the worlds most powerful human biotic, even if you can't control her still shows your muscle.

Rachni and Creepers... sure, failure. As much as Jurassic Park was a failure. No control, but creation itself is a step furthering science.

Shepard? Major success. Who cares if you have a Collector's base if humanity is enslaved? Even if Shepard destroys the base, TIM has a ton of research data on not only the Collectors, but the other races on board the Normandy. He's got the location of the Migrant Fleet, codes to get into it(again), information and location on the new Shadow Broker, the structure of the Blue Suns... ton's of data, all spoken on the Normandy. If anyone thinks there weren't bugs implanted on that ship... That one is a total success. And we still have no idea if Jacob or Miranda will actually stay loyal to Shepard, or if they are sleeper agents. Same with Jack... and well... everyone on your crew. The Shadow Broker may have had Dr. Wilson in his pocket, but Cerberus has Liara's buddy in theirs.

Overlord was still a success. It's proof of concept. The data they got from it proved that the Geth could be controlled. And with the right test subject, controlled correctly. Most of their work goes out of control because they are pushing the boundaries of Science. And we've only seen the experiments that don't go as planned. What about all of the ones that actually were total successes?

[crimzontearz]

wait what???

dude...if your intent is creating an AI that will help you win a war but the AI turns around and causes a galactic technological apocalypse BEFORE the war even starts that is not a success no mattter how much "creating" the AI in the first place could matter....same for shepard


also..which ones were "total successes"???

Modifié par crimzontearz, 30 juin 2011 - 04:39 .

[Hulk Hsieh]

How about every of Cerberus except TIM get indoctrinated and TIM flees Cerberus to fight as a companion of Shepard?
I really want try fighting alongside with him once.

Modifié par Hulk Hsieh, 30 juin 2011 - 04:40 .

[Getorex]

ThePwener wrote...

[SPOILERS]

Bioware said we'd have to buy ME3 to find the reason that Cerberus wants Shepard dead. I thought there was going to be a great reason only BW could deliver. A month later I see a ME3 demo and one of the developers of BW says that they're indoctrinated. Then Shepard himself says they're indoctrinated. At first I thought BW wanted to mislead us, but minutes later I saw Cerberus forces in what they said was a Heretic Geth base, and then a Reaper spider thing comes out, ect.

So Cerberus got indoctrinated? That's the amazing reason? Not very original. ANd we can't blame it on the Collector Base because it apperantly happens either way.

So is BW misleading us and Shepard only thinks they're indoctrinated? Maybe... or maybe BW got lazy, which I don't want to believe.

I haven't heard, nor read, this from Bioware anywhere (but then I don't follow it that closely).  HOWEVER.  I am reading the ME books and am currently reading "Mass Effect: Retribution".  Not too far along but I am far enough along to make a leap here:  Grayson is artificially made into a Cerberus-created "indoctrinated" person as revenge and for research purposes by order of the Illusive Man.  Right there is an avenue for indoctrination of Cerberus.  In fact, without going too far into it I can see it as poetic justice.  A human-centric to the extreme (racist/xenophobic) terrorist organization, self-appointed by the Illusive Man to be the sole protector of humanity by any means gets indoctrinated and turned directly opposed to their founding principles (such as they are).  TIM indoctrinates a victim (he has a way of choosing people to be "martyrs for humanity" without their sayso, just his order) and like every other scheme cooked up by TIM and Cerberus, they lose control of it and...hilarity ensues.  If not the original victim (Grayson) then any follow-on selected/involuntary "martyrs for humanity".  Cerberus eats dookie again only in a really really contrary way.  Poetic justice.

Of course, simply being far enough along in the book for the initial indoctrination to occur on one character this seems a viable avenue for the organization's indoctrination.  Also, unless you played Shepard as a damned sociopath then there is some bad blood remaining with Cerberus and the Illusive Man at the end of ME2.  That in itself is another avenue for violence between Shepard and his dudes/dudettes and Cerberus AGAIN.  Hell, a lot of my time in ME1 (and yours) was spent thwarting/fighting against Cerberus goons so it is only fitting that there be a return to wildtype here in ME3.  If you do the right thing at the end of ME2, you have the Illusive Man demanding that you be killed to prevent you from preventing HIM from getting his mitts on the Collector Base.  You can get back to fighting the Cerberus creeps without there being any weird plot turns - the entire Shep-Cerberus alliance was shakey from the start (unless you are a sociopath Shep and we know Bioware doesn't base the storyline on a sociopath in the lead).

Modifié par Getorex, 30 juin 2011 - 04:58 .

[Getorex]

Undertone wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Undertone wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Do they need to be indoctrinated?

They were always evil and idiots.

Uh-uh and yet somehow they continue to persist and have a large influence within the galaxy. And somehow have a sufficient army now at ME3.

You can call the army plot magic if you want. I call Cerberus failings plot magic then, since Shepard has to do something right like visit Overlord, Pragia etc.

Cerberus always had an army.

Miranda few times said they have military divisions.
Cerberus might not have same numbers as Geth in ME1, but they are powerful enough to make attack and run tactics and to do heavy damage( saving female Krogan for example) and to guard important locations( Geth base holding a Reaper).



Also Illusive Man did send clean up crew on Pragia right after Jack's escape. How did you missed that?
And it's Jack that sent Shepard on Pragia, not he.


As for Overlord?
Well it's much faster and better to sent elite squad who is experienced in fighting Geth to clear are of hostiles then sent an army.
Which could have came after Shepard to do a clean up.

You misunderstood me I think. I was saying a lot of the Cerberus failings from a meta perspective is because well Shepard needs to do something within the game you know.

Anyway your argument that Cerberus is evil and idiots is well wrong on many accounts but honestly I'm tired of explaining why since obviously you Cerberus haters ignore any evidence presented and keep your yelling "Lol CERBERUS  IS EVIL LET ME KILL ILLUSIVE MAN AWSOME" or let's destroy the base to show TIM the middle finger. Uh-uh.

Uh, no, you cannot properly argue that Cerberus is NOT evil.  Impossible.  It is NOT defensible that TIM chooses people against their will to be "martyrs" in experiments to "help humanity".  Bullcrap.  That is the defnition of evil.  Cerberus under TIMs orders regularly kill/torture/abuse human subjects and aliens all so "humans will come out on top".  

See, first this assumes (wrongly) that it is a zero sum game, that for humanity to "win" then everyone else (aliens) has to "lose".  Based on that false premise, everything that flows from it is evil.  It leads to torturous abuse (creating/abusing Jack, for instance - plus all the other children at that facility...and don't forget Gillian from the book Mass Effect: Ascension).  It leads to carelessly killing aliens (they're just alien scum) and humans who interfere (race traitors/traitors to humanity which is sickly related to white supremecist crap on "race traitors").  It leads to undermining diplomatic gestures and peaceful coexistence with Council races, instead seeking to insert humans (Cerberus-approved, of course) to LORD over the other races and if they don't like it, tough ******.  That is evil.

The goal of Cerberus is evil: putting a boot on the throat of all other alien races and lording over them as humans.  The means to that goal is evil: anything necessary.  Even if their goals were laudible (they are not and are based on false dichotomy) it is the methods that matter:  they are what define you.  Cerberus, in its every action, has done evil either to unwilling/unwitting human subjects (you have to break a few eggs eh?) or aliens (because, you know, who cares, they're aliens and have no value).  Evil.

All you have to do is read the ME books to see that TIM and Cerberus are evil.  They employ alien HATING individuals, not merely human-favoring people but actively alien-hating individuals who take pleasure in harming/killing aliens...merely because they are not human.  TIM repeatedly asserts the need for humanity to come out on top with all the other alien races on the bottom.  By any means necessary.  Every operation of Cerberus you fought against in ME1 was evil.  It is not viable to allow that TIM didn't know or that they are ALL "rogue operations".  My ass.  Just as it was bullcrap that Reagan didn't know squat about his own administration's actions regarding Columbia, Argentina, Nicuaragua, Iran, etc, etc, etc.  TIM knew/ordered/approved of EVERY Cerberus operation.  You get that quite clearly from the books that do a nice job of fleshing out the back story pre-ME1, and fill in between ME1 and ME2.  There is no way to misinterpret TIM or Cerberus.

Modifié par Getorex, 30 juin 2011 - 05:17 .

[Mathy16]

I don't care about Cerberus, but I do not want TIM to be the main enemy next to the Reapers...
I'm still hoping TIM is somewhere hiding because he has been kicked from his throne.

[Crackseed]

ThePwener wrote...

Im just amazed how bad they handled it. First they say we have to play the game to find out and afterwards they release a demo with a huge plot killer, and the dev says it so casually too, like they don't care anymore.

They did it wrong.

You need to relax. Even if we've heard Shep say they are indoctrinated, there are multiple points where people have asked the devs if that's the big secret and they have said no - the reasoning behind why Cerb is indoctrinated, etc is still under wraps and it's not something just as simple as "Oh hey they got too close to Reapers and got brainwashed" - there's more to it.

So let's stop throwing out the cliche, blah blah lines and wait to see what exactly is going on. Eesh - Alarmists these days >.>

[Ahglock]

As much fun as the Cerberus is/is not evil/incompetent debate is, I'll just go back to the original topic of indoctrination. Cerberus is probably on a logical level one of the last organization in the Galaxy that should get indoctrinated, certain cells sure they can, but given how many reaper parts from sovereign are spread throughout the various races this could be happening everywhere. The Cerberus structure is a semi-unconnected network of cells, there isn't really a central repository for Cerberus goons to be indoctrinated. That isn't something you can really indoctrinate without getting the galaxy first. It would be easier to indoctrinate Turians as an enemy than Cerberus, in that a single indoctrination tool in a population center could get you an army.

[Getorex]

Ahglock wrote...

As much fun as the Cerberus is/is not evil/incompetent debate is, I'll just go back to the original topic of indoctrination. Cerberus is probably on a logical level one of the last organization in the Galaxy that should get indoctrinated, certain cells sure they can, but given how many reaper parts from sovereign are spread throughout the various races this could be happening everywhere. The Cerberus structure is a semi-unconnected network of cells, there isn't really a central repository for Cerberus goons to be indoctrinated. That isn't something you can really indoctrinate without getting the galaxy first. It would be easier to indoctrinate Turians as an enemy than Cerberus, in that a single indoctrination tool in a population center could get you an army.

Actually it is just the opposite. Again, to borrow from the book "Mass Effect: Retribution", TIM is right there as an observer and driving force at the creation of an indoctrinated human victim for "research purposes". Doing something like this right there is more than enough to lead to the full indoctrination of all Cerberus. TIM could end up being indoctrinated as a result of his (evil) experiments and being TIM, could easily then indoctrinate all around him and spread that outward to the rest of Cerberus. All he would have to do is send indocrinated messengers hither and yon to produce more indoctrinated members, order others to appear directly before him, etc. Indoctrinate the core leadership of Cerberus (by doing such experiments right there) and the rest would be easily consumed.

[sp0ck 06]

We still don't know the whole story of what the deal is with Cerberus and TIM...

[Lotion Soronarr]

littlezack wrote...
See, that's the thing - knowing about indoctrination doesn't help. You. Can't. Prevent it.

Sez who? Indoctrination is technology like any other. And like any other it can be mastered and countered.

Aslo, it's not any and all reaper-tech that indoctrinates - it's a reaper itself. The only time poeple were indoctrinated is when they were in close proximity to a reaper. Not when they were studying pieces of reaper tech...like let's say, a cannon.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 30 juin 2011 - 08:33 .

[Ahglock]

Getorex wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

As much fun as the Cerberus is/is not evil/incompetent debate is, I'll just go back to the original topic of indoctrination. Cerberus is probably on a logical level one of the last organization in the Galaxy that should get indoctrinated, certain cells sure they can, but given how many reaper parts from sovereign are spread throughout the various races this could be happening everywhere. The Cerberus structure is a semi-unconnected network of cells, there isn't really a central repository for Cerberus goons to be indoctrinated. That isn't something you can really indoctrinate without getting the galaxy first. It would be easier to indoctrinate Turians as an enemy than Cerberus, in that a single indoctrination tool in a population center could get you an army.

Actually it is just the opposite. Again, to borrow from the book "Mass Effect: Retribution", TIM is right there as an observer and driving force at the creation of an indoctrinated human victim for "research purposes". Doing something like this right there is more than enough to lead to the full indoctrination of all Cerberus. TIM could end up being indoctrinated as a result of his (evil) experiments and being TIM, could easily then indoctrinate all around him and spread that outward to the rest of Cerberus. All he would have to do is send indocrinated messengers hither and yon to produce more indoctrinated members, order others to appear directly before him, etc. Indoctrinate the core leadership of Cerberus (by doing such experiments right there) and the rest would be easily consumed.

Unless they changed things in the comics/books indoctrination isn't a disease you catch.  He would have to send indoctrination devices out to every location and they don't seem to be things you fit in a backpack.  Also indoctrination takes time and far too many of the Cerberus troops/cells have nothing to do with reaper tech so it is fairly off for a organization like Cerberus to get nailed, especially when the only person who can connect the dots(TIM) has shown no hints of indoctrination up to the last point he is seen.  Indoctrination just doens't hold up without massive ammounts of handwavium.  But hey you needed massive ammounts of handwavium to get the Shepard works with Cerberus story to work so aparently Cerberus has plenty of it stocked up.  

[ME-ParaShep]

Ahglock wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

As much fun as the Cerberus is/is not evil/incompetent debate is, I'll just go back to the original topic of indoctrination. Cerberus is probably on a logical level one of the last organization in the Galaxy that should get indoctrinated, certain cells sure they can, but given how many reaper parts from sovereign are spread throughout the various races this could be happening everywhere. The Cerberus structure is a semi-unconnected network of cells, there isn't really a central repository for Cerberus goons to be indoctrinated. That isn't something you can really indoctrinate without getting the galaxy first. It would be easier to indoctrinate Turians as an enemy than Cerberus, in that a single indoctrination tool in a population center could get you an army.

Actually it is just the opposite. Again, to borrow from the book "Mass Effect: Retribution", TIM is right there as an observer and driving force at the creation of an indoctrinated human victim for "research purposes". Doing something like this right there is more than enough to lead to the full indoctrination of all Cerberus. TIM could end up being indoctrinated as a result of his (evil) experiments and being TIM, could easily then indoctrinate all around him and spread that outward to the rest of Cerberus. All he would have to do is send indocrinated messengers hither and yon to produce more indoctrinated members, order others to appear directly before him, etc. Indoctrinate the core leadership of Cerberus (by doing such experiments right there) and the rest would be easily consumed.

Unless they changed things in the comics/books indoctrination isn't a disease you catch.  He would have to send indoctrination devices out to every location and they don't seem to be things you fit in a backpack.  Also indoctrination takes time and far too many of the Cerberus troops/cells have nothing to do with reaper tech so it is fairly off for a organization like Cerberus to get nailed, especially when the only person who can connect the dots(TIM) has shown no hints of indoctrination up to the last point he is seen.  Indoctrination just doens't hold up without massive ammounts of handwavium.  But hey you needed massive ammounts of handwavium to get the Shepard works with Cerberus story to work so aparently Cerberus has plenty of it stocked up.  

Individuals in an organization don't have to be indoctrinated in order to fulfill seemingly indoctrinated roles. If the leader is indoctrinated or believes in the same faith as people who are known to indoctrinate, then that leader can easily manipulate his/her "pawns" to do whatever he or she suggests.

E.G. Liara taking over as the new ShadowBroker. The minions have no idea who the ShadowBroker really is, but they still follow him/her because it's either their job or it's their calling (no matter what missions and purposes the ShadowBroker has) It could be to save the universe or it could be to destroy it. It doesn't matter, they're fighting for the ShadowBroker and that's final.

Same for Cerberus. TIM could be indoctrinated by the Reapers, but he doesn't have to be. If he believes in the same thing that the Reapers believe in, he would be acting in correspondence to their own accord. Some people assume that TIM is indoctrinated by the Reapers because he's attacking Shepard in ME 3, but he could just believe that what the Reapers are doing truly is salvation or that there's more to the attacks than we think. TIM could be off to kill Shepard because it's in his best interests to keep Cerberus alive. By helping the Reapers and gaining their acknowledgment, there may be a possibility that the Reapers will grant mercy upon Cerberus for their actions against Shepard. The Reapers don't have to indoctrinate TIM because he already is fighting on their side even though he fully doesn't believe/trust in their culture/religion/motives. As long as he sees the means to an end to survive, that's all he wants and to that end he'll justify whatever he can just to obtain that goal.

[Phaedon]

Hulk Hsieh wrote...

How about every of Cerberus except TIM get indoctrinated and TIM flees Cerberus to fight as a companion of Shepard?
I really want try fighting alongside with him once.

TIM is a confirmed antagonist.

[Lotion Soronarr]

An undesputable fact is - without Cerberus, humanity would be that much weaker. The galaxy would have probably fallen...weather to Sovereign of the Collector-built reaper.

TIM and Cerberus provided crucial support and intel at the right time.
People an talk about the nice and proper way that pays off in the long run, but sometimes you dont' have the luxury of time...as proven by ME3.

[Apollo Starflare]

Still living in the hope that there is more to it than simple indoctrination. It just makes very little sense given the way Cerberus is structured as an organisation. Plus whilst Cerberus may seem reckless and into stupid experiments (they are) TIM always has contingencies in place and never allows himself to be in harms way (nor the organisation as a whole). For that to all change within the space of a handfull of months stretches my credibility to the max.

I mean, I get the hate for Cerb, but do people really want a thick villain whereas previously we had, had the making of a much more subtle and ambiguous foe? Not to mention those understandable put out that despite one or more of their Shepard's 'siding' with Cerberus to some extent there seems to be no continuity of that decision and instead we all get the same twist.

So yeah, not raging about it or anything but very much hope there is more to the whole subplot than meets the eye.

[Quole]

ThePwener wrote...

And Im tired of people's mentally that's Cerberus is an incompetent pack of morons. They brought back a human from death! Dammit, how is that worth nothing!? Saved the human race! Rebuild the Normandy! And this isn't the point either.

They do like to put their logo on everything though.

[Adanu]

Big_Stupid_Jelly wrote...

Undertone wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Cerberus saved the galaxy from Harbinger and Sovereign.

What Cerberus has to do with Sovereign?
Sure, Cerberus was the one behind spoiling Harbingers plan, but Cerberus had nothing to do with Sovereign.

Cerberus persuaded the Alliance to work with the Turians in order to create the first Normandy. Without Cerberus there wouldn't be both Normandy 1 and 2 and without it Shepard would be blown to pieces on multiple occasions since he/she wouldn't have a stealth ship.

Technically Cerberus part of the Alliance at the time of the Normandy 1's commission, so basically the Alliance told itself.

Also in ME2 the Normandy 2 didn't prove to be that Stealthy as some mercs on Omega 'saw' them coming miles away, apparently.

Try to use semantics and technicalities all you want. They still saved the galaxy.

[Undertone]

Site ***ed up my spacing yet again. Tried fixing it but couldn't. Really lazy to fix each sentence spacing one by one.

[quote]ME-ParaShep
wrote...

[quote]Undertone wrote...

[quote]hwf
wrote...

They don't have to be
indoctrinated.
Indoctrination introduces a certain doctrine,
belief system, ideas, strategies by "force" or
coercion.

There
is another way you can reach that doctrine;
by coming to those
conclusions due to your own research and
analysis - ie. Cerberus agrees
with with that Reapers are doing
and have been doing for so long.
Superficially this looks very
much like indoctrination, but isn't.
[/quote]

So you are
saying ME2 is pointless then. Because clearly Cerberus is fighting
against the Reapers there. Where do you get that they agree with
the Reapers and *have been doing for so long* ??




[quote]Arcian
wrote...

[quote]Undertone wrote...

At least it's more
interesting to play the game this way then having a magic blue button
that fixes it all. Aren't you boring?[/quote]
So being a colossal
failure AND a massive, hated douchebag in every possible way is
fun to you?

Hihohahahuhihoho.jpg
[/quote]

Colossal
failure how? Clearly Cerberus have successes and failures like
every other organizations. Being a person for whom results justifies
the means doesn't make you a douchebag. All people in power have
to cut loose ends and do immoral things for the greater good and for
a bigger number of people. It's called power and using it.

I
do thank you though for not inserting a picture and making me waste
my time scrolling more.

[/quote]

I'm replying to the
bolded statements, but first I'd like to ask: Would you support
slavery in your district if the petition to have slaves were to be
lifted? Would you initiate a war with a country you like just so you
can steal it's goods? (E.G. Petrol and agriculture) Lastly, If you
were TIM himself, would you be able to survive an invasion of giant
sapient constructs annihilating numerous worlds and civilizations all
the while surviving attacks from many civilizations and
organizations?

If you say "Yes" to any of those
questions, I want you to explain how Cerberus can be so successful
and able to procure a means to an end and vast benefits for
themselves when majority of the most powerful organizations in the
galaxy is hunting them down and out to kill any one of their members
after what they've done in ME 3? The way I see it, doing devious
deeds to acquire the best results does succeed sometimes, but doing
so all the time isn't the smartest idea. Take for example Cerberus'
actions in Overlord. They used David as a tool to find a way to
communicate with Geth. Look how that turned out? The Rogue VI almost
escaped and so many "innocent" people who were working on
the project were murdered.

Doing rash things doesn't always
make results work out. In fact, it makes their reputation a lot worse
than it already is.  People who sacrifice other people gain
something are people that don't deserve to be cared for in my book.
Those types of people will never find true happiness in the end even
though whatever they accomplish is remarkable. Their unjust actions
can't be justified; almost like the genophage. The difference between
the STG's actions is that it can be reversed. It's possible to fix a
wrong and make something better out of it if things can be properly
worked out. People may say that "Sacrifices are necessary",
but sacrificing people only causes more pain and suffering for other
people in the world. More fights, battles, and wars occur because of
people who sacrifice others for their own appeals.

Do you
think it's a bright idea if you waste resources on a way that
shouldn't have happened in the first place? Especially if one side
caused it because of hatred for another countries culture and
misunderstandings? That's just being immature. It's risking lives,
begets anger in societies, forges racism, creates a reason to support
violence and extremism, and increases tensions among areas where
different ethnicites are held. All of which are for the
WRONG reasons. We don't need to create tensions and bloodshed
based off of immoral actions. If anything, it's smarter and a better
logical method to appease to other moral people's motives. It's
saving lives and finding the smarter, more secure, less risky, and
still producing great results that makes lives better. If you want to
be a dominant player go right ahead, but don't ever risk lives. Those
people will regret doing so.

Another prime example of why
immorality doesn't cut it is Jacob Taylor's Loyalty Mission. His
father became acting Captain and made a harem of lesser intelligent
women, killed off his subordinates, and kept all of the good food to
himself and his officers (in which he killed them off as well when
the time came). In the end, he had his fun, but when he wanted out,
his immorality got him arrested or killed.

The point of these
examples is that immorality and covert action in terms of negativity
is not a smart methodology. Even though it may sometimes procure
results, the actions won't ever be as forgivable and as safe as doing
the good things. Doing good things gives better rewards in the long
run and it keeps you out of trouble; cutting off unnecessary loose
ends. Doing the good things also is low risk and still productive.
You can help out your own species and you can help out others as
well. If others are moral as well, everybody flourishes. No
bloodshed, more allies, more happiness, less hatred, less to worry
about, less stress, more reasons to live, more ways to have fun,
don't have to worry about being assassinated or something along those
lines, and most importantly.. "Every step of the path you take
is less than the amount you have to do to get something done" if
only you do the good things.

Cerberus isn't being the good
organization. It doesn't have to be a good group to get the best
results, but it sure as hell hurts your organization and everyone
else involved with you in the long run and that's not what anybody
would want in a critical moment like war and diplomacy.

[/quote]













Do I support slavery? No. Not because
of any moral arguments or some such but because I don't think it's
effective. People work much harder when they work for themselves or
when they are given such illusion. Plus competition is very useful
for a number of reasons. Would I initiate war with a country to steal
their goods? Yes. The strong survive and thrive, the weak perish or
are subjugated. You can spout moralities and civil values but that's
the hard cold truth. If you are familiar with aspects of philosophy
you should know the Athenian/Melian argument about power. Second you
need sufficient power to make any kind of change in society or
elsewhere – good or bad. Without power you are unable to change
anything. I don't get the last question of yours but Cerberus has
enough potential to help stop the Reapers and ultimately “redeem”
itself (if you want to call it that) in the face of the galactic
societies by stopping the Reapers.




I haven't played Overlord so I can't
comment on that with much depth. At any rate to gain something you
must sacrifice something else – it's the working of life and it's
the way it is. And really if you can gain something without
sacrificing anything, was that thing worth in the first place? I
never said anything about happiness. Crude, harsh, unfair things
happen in life and one must accept and adapt to that and seek to get
better from that and use it to it's advantage. Nothing comes without
a price and sometimes you pay that prize with a piece of your soul,
conscience or your night sleep in order to do good in the long run or
sacrifice other people for the great many. There's no way everyone is
coming unscathed in any scenario.




The STG is no different in any way –
they killed thousands of krogan (still-born, un-born, whatever) in
order to preserve peace. As for war, war happens for any reason –
out of spite, religion, money, love, hate, peace, freedom etc. Any
reason is sufficient and enough to start a war because people by
nature desire strife and get better from conflict.




We can have all our civil virtues,
religions and other “rules” society has created – take away
food, electricity and things of basic necessity and suddenly people
aren't so virtuous anymore. That's the hard truth whether you like it
or not. Just by your existence other people suffer because there
isn't enough for everyone.



If you want to be the dominant player –
that doesn't work without sacrifices or making cuts or whatever.
Being a leader and being in power means you have to weigh the
virtues, values etc. vs. what needs to be done.




Jacob's father was partially right in
doing what he did. Again the strong survive – simple rule in nature
valid for everyone. What he didn't do right is that he could have
activated the beacon years ago. Instead he started to play God.




Diplomacy is all good when it works.
What happens in the case of Batarians when it doesn't or when the
Council doesn't want to intervene because it would trigger a war? You
are on your own. And that's when you need steel. No law every written
is as powerful as cold steel.




[quote]Phaedon
wrote...

[quote]Undertone wrote...
I love it how you avoid
clear evidence of Cerberus success and just shove it under there
somewhere. Fact of the matter is all you Cerberus
haters[/quote]
Accusatory tone already? Cool.
[quote]are clearly biased uncapable of admitting that Cerberus
does things (not everything) successful. And the fact of the matter
is you are biased based on emotions and moral reasoning whereas logic
and results[/quote]

By not everything, you mean that they have a 35% success rate
at best at anything that they do?
"We" are biased due to
emotions and moral reasoning?

We sure as hell are. And let me
clear at this, if you really think that anyone who tortures innocents
and abducting children is not evil (yes, that's moral reasoning) and
not your ally, then you won't function very well as a member of
society. And I am not even attacking you.

I
dislike utilitirianism, it's true. I don't finding it
disguisting however. 
Sometimes you have to achieve goals
that help others by sacrificing your own morals. The universe is not
made up of black and white, I think that we can agree on that.

The
goals that Cerberus sets are disguisting to say the least.
Abducting
dozens of children from their families to pick out one single
biotic?
Killing units of marines to...test their
devices?
Assasinating people just to change the political
climate?

What does all this have to do with saving billions of
people from the Reapers? Nothing.

These are just minor goals
to ensure human domination over everyone else. If you think that
people are biased because they value equality and helping others,
then that's your problem, not "ours".




[quote]is what counts. Some Cerberus operations do fail indeed
yet they always produce results in one aspect or another. The game
gives you enough facts where Cerberus has promoted something or
succeed in one area or another. You just choose to ignore blinded by
your morality.[/quote]

What exactly has Cerberus achieved?
They failed to interact
with the geth properly, because a silly scientist thought that if you
keep someone awake for days they'll be fine, and not have problems
with their brain.
They failed to create a special biotic for their
own use, at least twice.
They failed to achieve human domination,
it is Shepard who can choose that based on his choices in ME1.

Have
they resurrected Shepard? They have been of some use. No one denies
that, but to consider that and rebuilding a ship as a success  that
makes it worth all of they have done, seeing as how both projects end
up is just wrong.
[quote]Fact of the matter is Cerberus is Black Ops just like the
STG and just like any other black ops that the other species
have. Maybe you should check what duties black ops have.[/quote]

Black ops? Well this explains why they killed Kahoku and both
Anderson and Hackett raided their bas- oh wait.

They are
certainly not black ops of the Alliance, but they certainly have a
lot of allies from within the Alliance. Besides, that justifies
nothing. You bring up STG as a good example, what's next, CIA?
[quote] There's nothing wrong with promoting our species
instead of others. Believing in ever lasting peace and not having the
necessary counter-measures to stay strong and competetive is pure
blind idealism.[/quote]

Plato, Anaxagoras, and Kant would probably frown at
you.

There is nothing wrong with human domination? There's no
problem with war?

Good then. Let me know when another race or
species treat you as a second class citinzen, burn your house and
kill your family.






[quote]Also research, development and discoveries often happen
through immoral means, war and so on. If you believe otherwise you
should just look at the real world. The means might be wrong, but the
end justifies it - in the end more people are saved. Being
competetive and having the ability to be competitive are positive
things.
[/quote]

Research comes through war?
There's only one group in
history that believed that, afaik. And don't bring Einstein to the
argument.

Maybe you should change the prefix "anti"
from antagonism with "syn" now and then. It certainly
wouldn't hurt, and you wouldn't be any less competitive. Team work
helps.

Now, there is no problem being competitive with other
species, but that doesn't require killing people or doing anything
immoral. 

[quote]I also think I told you in
some other thread that racism is part of the psyche - conscious and
sub-conscious. It's not something inherently bad, it's
something that happens whether we like it or not. I do it, you do it,
everyone does it. You might not verbally or physically act upon it
yet you still judge things from the moment you see it. And that's
just the way it is - like it or not.

[/quote]
Racism is
not inherently bad? That's all I wanted to know, thank
you.

Prejudism and hating on differences is a weakness and it
hurts other people. You think that ulitirianists don't accept
that?

They do. That's why they try not to be
prejudiced.

EDIT:
You also said that BioWare made them from
"morally gray" to "evil".

That makes no
sense for two reasons:
-They were never "morally gray".
They were amoral and proud of it, and their actions were immoral
according to normative ethics.
-Why would Cerberus be evil now?
Because they are attacking you? 

Evil is a moral term, if
you don't believe in ethics, then don't use it.

Cerberus is as
we have said, amoral, and have no problem with killing you if it is
profitable.

[/quote]





Accusatory tone? Naah. I'm just willing to admit Cerberus failings
and successes. You on the other hand only speak of the first and deny
of the latter.





And you calculated that percentage how? As I said by the nature of
the organization Cerberus is and the position Shepard is he (he for
better easy although she in my case) should mostly hear about the
failures because he can assist in those. As I also said before
Cerberus can't exactly go and say “Wohoo listen everyone we
succeeded at this and this”. And from meta perspective Shepard
gotta do something in the game – like hey let's assist Cerberus
since they are the main faction in ME2 and we work for them.

The part about innocents and children is arbitrary at best –
especially the children part. The cell has gone rogue or some such
(it's been awhile since I last visited Pragia). Either way research
whether ethical or not brings results regardless. I don't necessarily
agree with some of the methods that Cerberus employs but regardless
all resources and all results regardless how achieved need to be used
against the Reapers. You know how the N used people for test subjects
in cold water? Well surely that's immoral yes. But we can treat
people from extreme cold now based on that research. Should we stop
using that knowledge and save people because of how the knowledge is
gotten? Same applies about the Collector Base.

Don't worry about my functioning in society I'm also not
utilitarianism, I just see the world for what it is – mostly gray
that is rather then black and white indeed. Assassinating people to
get a proper political climate is actually very important. Someone is
not willing to deal with the Reapers or hate humans, another does
not. Would I assassinate the Council if I would get more competent
people that would prepare for the Reapers? Gladly.

[quote]I think people are biased
because they say Cerberus did nothing good or beneficial – that's
clearly wrong and the game provides lots of facts that say otherwise.
I never said once however that Cerberus is moral, virtuous, good or
Mother Teresa.

Again only DLC I haven't played yet is
Overlord. Can't comment there. I dunno which the other biotic is
(maybe books, which I consider **** and non-cannon since they ****
the plot even more) but Jack did just fine – helped you with the
Collectors didn't she? Plus all the results helped the Alliance
biotic program. Achieving human domination is not something that can
be done so easy especially considering the other species have
centuries (if not more?) of advantage time-wise. But considering
humanity's state, I think we are doing just fine there too.

Have
they resurrected Shepard? Yep and perfectly at that. Have they helped
in the creation of the first Normandy? Yep. Built the second one?
Yep. EDI? Yep. Reaper counter-measures? Yep.
[/quote]
[quote]Kahoku was just poking his nose
in the wrong hole. I could go in more detail but I'm kind of tired by
now. It's clear though Cerberus is backed financially by high-ranking
Alliance personal. What can you say about that? Anderson is a moron
and a tool for the Council. Hackett is just another guy with agenda
that uses Shepard for his use on many occasions, Arrival being the
last straw.
[/quote]
Just because a few people close to Shepard don't know about it
doesn't necessarily mean anything. And let's talk about the
anti-matter that Cerberus apparently stole. What did the Alliance
just forget about it just like that, what did they thought nothing
will go wrong so no sufficient protection was needed? Come on...it's
like money laundry.




Since we are talking philosophy again you should be probably
familiar with the Athenian/Melian argument. And I don't really care
who would frown upon me. I am who I am.

Domination happens naturally. War happens naturally see my above
paragraph to the other dude. It's part of nature whether you like it
or not. I would rather help my own species then aliens.
Why so apprehensive in your next line? Yes I have been treated as
a second class citizen, as for the latter I have my share of
experiences. And if you do as well – so? Does that make you
special? There's suffering in a lot of places, you are not alone.
Your truth isn't my truth.

Research does come from war and
you are foolish to think otherwise. Humanity level of technology
jumped a huge huge leap during and post WW2.

Team work is fine and dandy. I would rather not relay on anyone
when I can rely on myself. Or do you think there will be always
someone to watch your back?

Racism occurs naturally, whether you act upon it or not is
entirely up to your choice, up to anyone's choice. It's a process
that occurs naturally but you should apply morality to the actions
that come off from that process, not to the process itself. Again I'm
not utilitarian.




Bioware tried to make them morally gray in ME2. They are committed
to preserve mankind and always were and want to stop the Reapers
which while helps them save themselves helps save everyone. In the
first game you don't know the reason why Cerberus is doing things
hence why they can be considered “evil”, in the second you do
hence why they can be considered “gray”. And in the third one
they are well...indoctrinated thus they are technically not “evil”
since they don't act on their free way so I suppose I can correct
myself there.


So to come back to my original point – give credit where
credit is due. Saying one liners “Omg Cerberus is stupid and evil.”
doesn't make you look cool or smart. I also wish there was more depth
to them and that they weren't so predictably chosen as sub-nemesis
in ME3 but that's not my fault.

Modifié par Undertone, 30 juin 2011 - 10:44 .

[kaiki01]

Adanu wrote...

Big_Stupid_Jelly wrote...

Undertone wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Adanu wrote...

Cerberus saved the galaxy from Harbinger and Sovereign.

What Cerberus has to do with Sovereign?
Sure, Cerberus was the one behind spoiling Harbingers plan, but Cerberus had nothing to do with Sovereign.

Cerberus persuaded the Alliance to work with the Turians in order to create the first Normandy. Without Cerberus there wouldn't be both Normandy 1 and 2 and without it Shepard would be blown to pieces on multiple occasions since he/she wouldn't have a stealth ship.

Technically Cerberus part of the Alliance at the time of the Normandy 1's commission, so basically the Alliance told itself.

Also in ME2 the Normandy 2 didn't prove to be that Stealthy as some mercs on Omega 'saw' them coming miles away, apparently.

Try to use semantics and technicalities all you want. They still saved the galaxy.

Nope. The Alliance did. They built the first Normandy. Without the Alliance there wouldn't be both Normandy 1 and 2(since 2 was a modified replica of 1) and without it
Shepard would be blown to pieces on multiple occasions since he/she
wouldn't have a stealth ship.

[Manic Sheep]

We know the Cerberus troop you are fighting are indoctrinated but there may be more to it than that and that doesn’t necessarily mean everyone in Cerberus is indoctrinated.
If it is just indoctrinated then yes it is anticlimactic and a waste. I still think it would have been more interesting to go the uncomfortable ally (or just ally for those who actually like Cerberus ) route with them rather than making them sub enemies again but I will wait to see how it is handled in ME3.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 30 juin 2011 - 11:30 .