271 réponses à ce sujet

[littlezack]

Exactly. Arrival, Project Rho, et cetera.

And indoctrination isn't technology like any other - it's technology belonging to a race of advanced sentient warships that have been alive for millions of years. It's so far beyond anything available that it might as well be magic.

[KevShep]

hhh89 wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...

They aren't indoctrinated. The indoctrination part in the demo was a simplification of the premise that Ceberus and the Reapers are against you. We don't know why they decided to turn on you.

I hope that there'll be a valid reason, but I really can't see HOW Cerberus, and especially TIM, could decide to join the Reapers without indoctrination.

 
I have a theory on why cerberus could in fact be working for the reapers willingly called "Cool Reaper Theory"

Specter_907.... I agree with you that they are not indoctrinated. In the Spike TV demo shepard does say that cerberus is indoctrinated but during that same video Casey Hudson says that you have to spend part of the game finding out why cerberus is working for the reapers. If cerberus is actually indoctrinated then that would already answer that question but because Casey says that you need to find the real reason so from that we know that they are in fact not indoctrinated!

Also note that in the GameInformer mag (the one with the pic of shepard on the cover) has an interview with bioware and GI asks why is cerberus working for the reapers and bioware says that the reason is a... "close guarded secret in bioware"! ----on page 58

Modifié par KevShep, 01 juillet 2011 - 10:17 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

littlezack wrote...

Exactly. Arrival, Project Rho, et cetera.

And indoctrination isn't technology like any other - it's technology belonging to a race of advanced sentient warships that have been alive for millions of years. It's so far beyond anything available that it might as well be magic.

ALL reaper technology is advanced technology belonging to a race million fo years old.

yet the Thanix cannon, derived from repaer tach, seems to work perfectly well wihout indoctrinating anyone. Fancy that!

Sci-fi is sci-fi, fantasy is fantasy. Technology and science are NOT magic.
Reper tech can be understood and countered and even replicated..of course, it takes time and research.

[Massadonious1]

I would imagine that being able to manipulate spare parts from Sovereign doesn't mean we automatically have the knowledge to give the middle finger to indoctrination.

Scale is clearly an issue in this case.

[GiggleLooper]

ThePwener wrote...

CheeseEnchilada wrote...

This. The devs seem rather willing to give us this information, which can only mean there's more to it than they've revealed. Why else would they give away a huge plot twist nine months before release? 

oooor someone dropped the ball big time and got fired for it.

What a stupid statement. So someone accidently tell us a massive plot twist, Bioware fire him for doing so, then think "oh well" and release the 'dropped ball' on a demo. You really have no gray matter between your ears.

[corrin1984]

Hey no need to say things are stupid. It's quite possible that information was leaked, and Bioware just decided to go with it. I DOUBT that's what happened, but hey... stranger things have occurred.

[GiggleLooper]

Bluko wrote...

We learned early on Cerberus was going to be after Shepard in ME3. Which is occuring during the Reaper invasion. So if Cerberus is trying to stop Shepard it can only mean one thing: they are working with the Reapers.

I

It's amazing how many people are assuming this. It could be possible that TIM is looking to control the Reapers and Reaper technology, on the belief that it will put humans at the top of the pecking order. Shepard's aim is to wipe out the Reaper threat which doesn't fit with TIM's plans, so Shepard must be removed. Just a theory.

[GiggleLooper]

corrin1984 wrote...

Hey no need to say things are stupid. It's quite possible that information was leaked, and Bioware just decided to go with it. I DOUBT that's what happened, but hey... stranger things have occurred.

ThePwener comment he posted was quite condescending, so I felt a similar response was required to prove a point. The likelihood of Bioware going with a 'dropped ball' 9 months before release is so small.  

Modifié par GiggleLooper, 01 juillet 2011 - 11:25 .

[Phaedon]

[quote]Undertone wrote...
Accusatory tone? Naah. I'm just willing to admit Cerberus failings
and successes. You on the other hand only speak of the first and deny
of the latter. [/quote]
Then you need to read my post again. I specifically said that their "successes" limited or not, don't undo everything that they have done.

And how could it? You suggest that there is some success that we have not heard of. Even if you don't care about morals, nothing screams "incapable" more than several dozens of dead operatives per game.



[quote]And you calculated that percentage how? As I said by the nature of
the organization Cerberus is and the position Shepard is he (he for
better easy although she in my case) should mostly hear about the
failures because he can assist in those. As I also said before
Cerberus can't exactly go and say “Wohoo listen everyone we
succeeded at this and this”. And from meta perspective Shepard
gotta do something in the game – like hey let's assist Cerberus
since they are the main faction in ME2 and we work for them. [/quote]
Nice attempt at ignoring the Shadow Broker files. Try again.


[quote]The part about innocents and children is arbitrary at best –
especially the children part. The cell has gone rogue or some such
(it's been awhile since I last visited Pragia).[/quote]
It's explicitly states that the part where it went rogue was when too many children started dying. TIM had no problem with abducting or killing children. He actually gave the order to create the project in the first place.

Going rogue does not exactly make the operatives part of another organization either.

[quote]Either way research
whether ethical or not brings results regardless. I don't necessarily
agree with some of the methods that Cerberus employs but regardless
all resources and all results regardless how achieved need to be used
against the Reapers. You know how the N used people for test subjects
in cold water? Well surely that's immoral yes. But we can treat
people from extreme cold now based on that research. Should we stop
using that knowledge and save people because of how the knowledge is
gotten? Same applies about the Collector Base. [/quote]
The Collector Base argument is facepalm-worthy at best. TIM simply states "To achieve human domination blah blah Reapers and beyond."

And you still miss my main point, all of Cerberus' projects, or at least the ones that we are aware of, have no connection to the Reapers whatsoever, other than the Lazarus Project and the Retribution project, the last one of which showed how immature TIM is and how incapable Cerberus is. What we saw in Retribution is a monstrous experiment with little use, TIM's lust for vengeance, Cerberus being incapable in containing the subject, and eventually not defending their bases against a small strike team.

[quote]Don't worry about my functioning in society I'm also not
utilitarianism, I just see the world for what it is – mostly gray
that is rather then black and white indeed. Assassinating people to
get a proper political climate is actually very important.[/quote]
Important? 
For starters, democracy is impossible in such a climate.  I can't really understand how you publically state that you are okay with killing politicians for your own view to dominate.

[quote]Someone is
not willing to deal with the Reapers or hate humans, another does
not. Would I assassinate the Council if I would get more competent
people that would prepare for the Reapers? Gladly. [/quote]
And how would you get these competent people and what would they do exactly? Preserve racial unity is certainly not one of these, I suppose.

[quote]I think people are biased
because they say Cerberus did nothing good or beneficial – that's
clearly wrong and the game provides lots of facts that say otherwise.
I never said once however that Cerberus is moral, virtuous, good or
Mother Teresa. [/quote]
None of Cerberus' actions are morally good so far.
Beneficial? Yeah, okay, we have already seen this argument used half a dozen times.

[quote]Again only DLC I haven't played yet is
Overlord. Can't comment there. I dunno which the other biotic is
(maybe books, which I consider **** and non-cannon since they ****
the plot even more)[/quote]
Is this the smudboy syndrome or something?
The DLC are perfectly cannon. They were written by ME writers and are accepted in the MEverse storyline, and some even have effects in the storyline of the games.

[quote]but Jack did just fine – helped you with the
Collectors didn't she?[/quote]
Oh, yeah Jack did just fine as a person right.
And I am sure that this was TIM's master plan all along.

Not to mention that Jack is easily the most useless squadmate in ME2.

[quote]Plus all the results helped the Alliance
biotic program.[/quote]
What.

[quote]Achieving human domination is not something that can
be done so easy especially considering the other species have
centuries (if not more?) of advantage time-wise. But considering
humanity's state, I think we are doing just fine there too. [/quote]
Human domination is a good thing..? You really believe that? At this point of time?

[quote]Have
they resurrected Shepard? Yep and perfectly at that.[/quote]
lol


[quote]Have they helped
in the creation of the first Normandy?[/quote]
Source.

[quote]Yep. Built the second one?
Yep. EDI? Yep. [/quote]
Building a ship and an AI? That's all? 

[quote]Reaper counter-measures? Yep. [/quote]
...nope?
[/quote]


[quote]Kahoku was just poking his nose
in the wrong hole. I could go in more detail but I'm kind of tired by
now. [/quote]
Heh, you don't even believe in eye for an eye.

You believe in eye for a hair.

Kahoku did his job, and hunted down a terrorist group who slaughtered his men for no reason. What pointless wastes of lives. I want to see you justify all of them.
[quote]It's clear though Cerberus is backed financially by high-ranking
Alliance personal.[/quote]
tru fax

[quote]What can you say about that? Anderson is a moron
and a tool for the Council.[/quote]
You have clearly not read even the description of the book because that makes no sense.

[quote]Hackett is just another guy with agenda
that uses Shepard for his use on many occasions, Arrival being the
 [/quote]
Hackett and Anderson are two of the highest ranking Alliance soldiers. "Uses" Shepard? You can always say no, you know.

[quote]last straw.[/quote]
What?

[quote]
Just because a few people close to Shepard don't know about it
doesn't necessarily mean anything. And let's talk about the
anti-matter that Cerberus apparently stole. What did the Alliance
just forget about it just like that, what did they thought nothing
will go wrong so no sufficient protection was needed? Come on...it's
like money laundry. [/quote]
Uh, for starters they declared Cerberus as a criminal group.

Moreover, money laundering doesn't mostly include your operatives getting killed and one of them actually revealing your supah dupah secretive organization.




[quote]Since we are talking philosophy again you should be probably
familiar with the Athenian/Melian argument. And I don't really care
who would frown upon me. I am who I am.[/quote]
Yes?


[quote]Domination happens naturally. War happens naturally see my above
paragraph to the other dude. It's part of nature whether you like it
or not.[/quote]
No, not even for animals.
Ever heard of collective empathy?

[quote]I would rather help my own species then aliens.
Why so apprehensive in your next line? Yes I have been treated as
a second class citizen, as for the latter I have my share of
experiences. And if you do as well – so? Does that make you
special? There's suffering in a lot of places, you are not alone.
Your truth isn't my truth. [/quote]
"War is good, racism is good"

That your point?

Hurting people is beneficial? Social inequality too? Really?

[quote]Research does come from war and
you are foolish to think otherwise. Humanity level of technology
jumped a huge huge leap during and post WW2. [/quote]
"during"=/="from"

[quote]Team work is fine and dandy. I would rather not relay on anyone
when I can rely on myself. Or do you think there will be always
someone to watch your back? [/quote]
Yes, in fact, not having trust issues and being functional in a small group of people is a natural process and very beneficial for the state of mind as a whole.

[quote]Racism occurs naturally, whether you act upon it or not is
entirely up to your choice, up to anyone's choice. It's a process
that occurs naturally but you should apply morality to the actions
that come off from that process, not to the process itself. Again I'm
not utilitarian. [/quote]
You are utilitarian, since you clearly share their philosophy.
Occurs naturally and good couldn't be further.

Why is racism good again? Because it is natural?



[quote]Bioware tried to make them morally gray in ME2.[/quote]
No, that's your assumption.

[quote]They are committed
to preserve mankind and always were and want to stop the Reapers
which while helps them save themselves helps save everyone. In the
first game you don't know the reason why Cerberus is doing things
hence why they can be considered “evil”, in the second you do
hence why they can be considered “gray”. And in the third one
they are well...indoctrinated thus they are technically not “evil”
since they don't act on their free way so I suppose I can correct
myself there. [/quote]
Your ends don't make your means moral, in normative ethics. So no.


[quote]So to come back to my original point – give credit where
credit is due.[/quote]
Why? Cerberus only conducts a few projects -some time two only- at once, and we have already seen a lot of failures, on projects who were going on for years. Therefore, they are incapable for the most part.

[quote]Saying one liners “Omg Cerberus is stupid and evil.”[/quote]
Cerberus is evil, collectively.

I'd say that most ultranationalists have the IQ of a dog, but to be clear, TIM and Cerberus have done several goofs.



[quote]doesn't make you look cool or smart. I also wish there was more depth
to them and that they weren't so predictably chosen as sub-nemesis
in ME3 but that's not my fault. [/quote]
Not that they were build up like that from before ME2.

[Ghost Warrior]

Interesting discussion between Phaedon and Undertone. I mostly agree with Phaedon,but in some points I'm with Undertone who has more realistic point of view,unlike Phaedon's more idealistic views.

[hwf]

Phaedon: For starters, democracy is impossible in such a climate.  I can't really understand how you publically state that you are okay with killing politicians for your own view to dominate.

No offense here, but we're talking about a game here. It's OK to be evil in one as long as you don't start axe-murdering your neighbours or something.

Fact is, in the world of today we see a lot of similarly dark and dubious things going on. Cerberus would be such an organisation that, especially since they've gone rogue, has absolutely no problems with removing someone permanently if it suits their agenda.

Modifié par hwf, 01 juillet 2011 - 12:07 .

[Bad King]

Seboist wrote...

"Anybody can get indoctrinated!!!"

I'm sure people would take it real well if it was Anderson leading an Alliance army against Shepard, right..... right?

The Alliance fleets have already been humiliatingly crushed by the reapers, I doubt there are many armies left to be indoctrinated. But saying that, I do agree with the point that you're making.

[Bad King]

KevShep wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Spectre_907 wrote...

They aren't indoctrinated. The indoctrination part in the demo was a simplification of the premise that Ceberus and the Reapers are against you. We don't know why they decided to turn on you.

I hope that there'll be a valid reason, but I really can't see HOW Cerberus, and especially TIM, could decide to join the Reapers without indoctrination.

 
I have a theory on why cerberus could in fact be working for the reapers willingly called "Cool Reaper Theory"

Specter_907.... I agree with you that they are not indoctrinated. In the Spike TV demo shepard does say that cerberus is indoctrinated but during that same video Casey Hudson says that you have to spend part of the game finding out why cerberus is working for the reapers. If cerberus is actually indoctrinated then that would already answer that question but because Casey says that you need to find the real reason so from that we know that they are in fact not indoctrinated!

Also note that in the GameInformer mag (the one with the pic of shepard on the cover) has an interview with bioware and GI asks why is cerberus working for the reapers and bioware says that the reason is a... "close guarded secret in bioware"! ----on page 58

I bet in a few months time, Casey Hudson will announce that the close guarded secret is in fact that Cerberus are indoctrinated. It would be one of the biggest trolls in gaming history.

But what I think is that the basic grunts are indoctrinated (from being so close to the reapers) while Cerberus command itself has allied with the reapers without succumbing to indoctrination.

[CroGamer002]

Phaedon and Undertone discussion.

[Phaedon]

hwf wrote...

Phaedon: For starters, democracy is impossible in such a climate.  I can't really understand how you publically state that you are okay with killing politicians for your own view to dominate.

No offense here, but we're talking about a game here. It's OK to be evil in one as long as you don't start axe-murdering your neighbours or something.

We are not talking about the game's storyline, at least not exclusively, but morality in general.

Fact is, in the world of today we see a lot of similarly dark and dubious things going on. Cerberus would be such an organisation that, especially since they've gone rogue, has absolutely no problems with removing someone permanently if it suits their agenda.

I'd say that the "the ends justify the means" and organizations like Cerberus were more active a few decades ago but I agree.

Not so much on the political assasinations part, however.

[lovgreno]

Political assasinations are actualy usualy counter productive as it creates martyrs for your opponents. It makes the competent join political and economical forces against you and the incompetent tries to kill you as they suspect they may be next in line. Your own organisation starts to fall apart (is happening to Cerberus already, no one trusts Cerberus, especialy not those working for Cerberus) as everyone fears that they will be assasinated for real or imagined things.

In real life political killings are the method of the small, isolated and blinded by idealism organisations (sounds like a organisation we know right?). The big, strong and competent organisations doesn't have to take such risks as they have developed cheaper and more efficent methods.

[GiggleLooper]

Geez, this threat has rapidly drifted away from the OP. I thought is was about the possible plot reveal of Cerberus indoctrination, not the moral standing of their actions throught the series.

[Phaedon]

GiggleLooper wrote...

Geez, this threat has rapidly drifted away from the OP. I thought is was about the possible plot reveal of Cerberus indoctrination, not the moral standing of their actions throught the series.

That's already covered.

We don't know enough.

Plus, considering that: a) the banter systems are unfinished, all of the lines in the demo that were voice-acted were done in a special session (the rest of the game isn't voice-acted yet), c) BioWare wants to keep the Cerberus secret hidden,

I don't think that it is too far fetched too assume that BioWare is trolling us by specifically having that piece of banter dialogue voice acted and shown to everyone.

Modifié par Phaedon, 01 juillet 2011 - 12:58 .

[littlezack]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

littlezack wrote...

Exactly. Arrival, Project Rho, et cetera.

And indoctrination isn't technology like any other - it's technology belonging to a race of advanced sentient warships that have been alive for millions of years. It's so far beyond anything available that it might as well be magic.

ALL reaper technology is advanced technology belonging to a race million fo years old.

yet the Thanix cannon, derived from repaer tach, seems to work perfectly well wihout indoctrinating anyone. Fancy that!

Sci-fi is sci-fi, fantasy is fantasy. Technology and science are NOT magic.
Reper tech can be understood and countered and even replicated..of course, it takes time and research.

The Thanix cannon doesn't indoctrinate anyone because all it does is imitate Sovereign's technology. It's not like they took the cannon straight off Sovereign and hooked it up to a ship.

Can Reaper tech be imitated? Sure. But how the hell is the galaxy at large supposed to make a counter for a mind control technique that belongs to a race sentient machines that the vast majority of them don't even believe exists? You mean to tell me that, if people sense they're being indoctrinated, what they'll do is immediately hit the labs and figure out how it works?

[sponge56]

hwf wrote...

Phaedon: For starters, democracy is impossible in such a climate.  I can't really understand how you publically state that you are okay with killing politicians for your own view to dominate.

No offense here, but we're talking about a game here. It's OK to be evil in one as long as you don't start axe-murdering your neighbours or something.

Fact is, in the world of today we see a lot of similarly dark and dubious things going on. Cerberus would be such an organisation that, especially since they've gone rogue, has absolutely no problems with removing someone permanently if it suits their agenda.

This would be true if it wasn't for the fact that mass effect forces you to make moral decisions which other games do not.  It allows you to discuss issues such as morality through a context which we all understand.  If this was grand theft auto I would be agreeing with you, as this is mass effect I am not

[CaolIla]

Wow so Cerberus know they will get indoctrinated if they get to close to a reaper object,they still do it again and again just to get indoctrinated in the end, since there is no way to avoid it and they are not supposed to be ... well slow to keep it diplomatic?
Reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Lisa makes experiments to determine if a hamster or Bart is smarter. Cerberus seems to be Bart.

That's my opinion Based on the simple information that Cerberus is indoctrinated and knowing what happened in ME1 and 2.

I'm pretty sure this whole thing will be explained in the game in more detail than "Ah by the way Shepmaster, those Cerberus dudes are now indoctrinated.", so I wait to render my judgment whether this "twist" itself is stupid or not.

[Lumikki]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

kaiki01 wrote...

Encouraged =/= build, design, implement.

Encourage = pressure, push, convince.
Would the Normandy have even be built withous Cerberus influence?
Even if it wold, would it have been built IN TIME for Shaperad to make use of it?

Wihout TIM and Cerberus, would Shepard even know about Collectors.? The Colelctor base? The Reaper IFF?
And while Cerbers was TECHNICLY part of the alliance, it was a separeate group even then, with it's own agende. If that wasn't hte case it would have gone rouge.


Lt's face the facts here - Bioware writers did screw up a bit wiht Cerberus, for thy couldn't think up of better missions.
Dev1: "We need a few mroe missions for this expansion pack."
Dev2: "Hmm..How about a Batarian terrorist act?"
Dev1: "We did that."
Dev3: "failed Cerberus experiment?"
Dev2: "We already did that too."
Dev1: "Don't matter. If yo udon't think of anything better than that b tomorrow, roll with it."

Teh cerberus side-missions stretch my supension of disbelief as it is already.

So, it's the butterfly, who saved the world.

You know the butterfly effect. One actions leads in other and cause chain reaction, but what did start it all. Who was before TIM? Because TIM would not Encourage anyone if the science would not found the data cache on Mars. Or was it the person who deside we need to go mars. Or was it the one who orginally desined the "deep scout" frigate class ship, where Normany was based on. Where does this end?

Person who saved us was Shepard and he used Alliance ship to do it. End of story, because other ways there is no end in chain reaction of butterfly effect. Because if you start go to that path, there is no end and not just Normandy related, but everyting else, like would Shepard be able to save Galaxy without Liara or other grew members. What about other technology what Shepard used, armors, weapons and so on. There is 1 000 000 factors if you go too deep. So, you have to just leave it as it is. Cerberus contribute for saving Galaxy in ME1 was allmost none exsistence compared also all other factors, if you bring them also in surface.

Modifié par Lumikki, 01 juillet 2011 - 04:31 .

[hwf]

Phaedon: We are not talking about the game's storyline, at least not exclusively, but morality in general. I'd say that the "the ends justify the means" and organizations like Cerberus were more active a few decades ago but I agree.
Not so much on the political assasinations part, however.

I see. I'd agree, morally speaking.
But in desperate situations like war, or worse, political assasinations will be par for the course I'm afraid. I don't presume Humanity has changed at all, or can change for that matter.

Phaedon: I don't think that it is too far fetched too assume that BioWare is trolling us by specifically having that piece of banter dialogue voice acted and shown to everyone.

Definately. And now that it's out you can bet on it that they'll time and again bluntly mention Cerberus is indoctrinated or working for the Reapers right up until the day of release.
Nuancing the statement would be an actual spoiler.

Modifié par hwf, 01 juillet 2011 - 03:53 .

[VolusvsReaper]

I think the indoctrination is just fine, it makes sense and now I can take pleasure in killing Cerberus operatives for all of the crooked things they did in the past.