271 réponses à ce sujet

[Garrison2009]

Like I've said before here, I simply believe that The Illusive Man is a second Saren, in essence. When the Repares return, he'll realize it's too late to stop them and instead go down the Arterius path of trying to prove Organics usefulness to them. Unlike Saren however, his interest will only be in saving humanity.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lumikki wrote...
So, it's the butterfly, who saved the world.

You know the butterfly effect. One actions leads in other and cause chain reaction, but what did start it all. Who was before TIM? Because TIM would not Encourage anyone if the science would not found the data cache on Mars. Or was it the person who deside we need to go mars. Or was it the one who orginally desined the "deep scout" frigate class ship, where Normany was based on. Where does this end?

Person who saved us was Shepard and he used Alliance ship to do it. End of story, because other ways there is no end in chain reaction of butterfly effect. Because if you start go to that path, there is no end and not just Normandy related, but everyting else, like would Shepard be able to save Galaxy without Liara or other grew members. What about other technology what Shepard used, armors, weapons and so on. There is 1 000 000 factors if you go too deep. So, you have to just leave it as it is. Cerberus contribute for saving Galaxy in ME1 was allmost none exsistence compared also all other factors, if you bring them also in surface.

Reductio Ad Absurdum much?


A mover/shaker in a chain of events is not the same as a random link. Cerberus actively pushed for the Normandy project. They were a major mover of events.
And even if you could completely dismiss them in ME1, what about ME2? Could anyone stopped the reapers without Cerberus? Not bloody likely, since no one else was even trying.

[Lotion Soronarr]

A quick comment on the Cerberus and morality issue.

Morality is a luxury one can indulge in when ALIVE and safe. All the morality in the world will be useless if your entire race is dead.
Cerberus at this point is necessary. And no, it's not fully evil. Don't forget that your crew is mostly Cerberus and they seem a nice bunch.

And I'm saying this prom the position of a goody-two-shoes player who always plays paladins/paragons and stuff like that.


Also, human dominance is a good thing if you're human. Pecking order exist in the universe.
It's why the big powerfull nations can do almost whatever they want and why the small nations have 0 power/influence.

[kotor610]

i would like to think that Cerberus's connection to the reapers is complex and full of twists, but after ME2; my faith that they can still deliver on this deepness is rapidly eroding. With a massive push towards the fps audience, and over simplifying the decisions in mass mass effect one; from shades of grey to a rudimentary good\\evil. i was not angry that Cerberus is the main infantry baddie in the game, its just that they couldn't find a unique reason to why Cerberus is after you.

[qworty]

TIM is a reaper/ was indoctrinated from the beginning. Everything Cerberus has done was part of an elaborate reaper contingency plan.

Better yet when Sovereign reported the multitude of species to the Reaper fleet they decided to pick one species to elevate and sent a reaper to make it happen and that reaper created Cerberus.

[Urazz]

kotor610 wrote...

i would like to think that Cerberus's connection to the reapers is complex and full of twists, but after ME2; my faith that they can still deliver on this deepness is rapidly eroding. With a massive push towards the fps audience, and over simplifying the decisions in mass mass effect one; from shades of grey to a rudimentary goodevil. i was not angry that Cerberus is the main infantry baddie in the game, its just that they couldn't find a unique reason to why Cerberus is after you.

Do they really need a unique reason to be after you since they are working for the reapers?

Truth is that we truly don't have all the information about Cerberus in ME3 so we can't judge it completely yet.

[littlezack]

The Reapers indoctrinate people and control them. It's one  of their main methods of attack. On top of that, without access to the Citadel, the Reapers are low on something they've really enjoyed in past reapings...information. Infecting Cerberus suits all their needs - they're a shadowy organization that they can infiltrate without causing a big stir, and they're connections give the Reapers valuable intel that they wouldn't otherwise be privy to.

It's not a big stretch that the Reapers would want to get them, and it's not a big stretch that they'd fall for it. It's what the Reapers do. It's like going to watch a vampire movie, then claiming that vampires biting people is such a tired cliche. It's their thing.

[yogolol]

Nvm, I had an idea about TIM`s eyes but I just found there`s already an offical reason.

Modifié par yogolol, 03 juillet 2011 - 05:58 .

[JedTed]

The way i see it, Cerberus becoming indoctrinated only reinforces the argument that keeping the Collector base is bad. Those who destroyed the base will probebly have an easier time fighting TIM's minions as they won't have the advanced technology recovered from the Collectors.

[yogolol]

JedTed wrote...

The way i see it, Cerberus becoming indoctrinated only reinforces the argument that keeping the Collector base is bad. Those who destroyed the base will probebly have an easier time fighting TIM's minions as they won't have the advanced technology recovered from the Collectors.

I don`t think they`ll make the gameplay easier based on a decision you make.

[Xavier St. Cloud]

littlezack wrote...

I really don't get why this bothers people so much. Cerberus has a long history of screwing with crap that comes back to bite them in the ass. On top of that, because of the way the organization works, all it would really take was the Illusive Man getting indoctrinated - from there, the Reapers could poison the whole system.

I don't call it lazy. I call it an inevitable conclusion.

This.

Cerberus tried to master the dangerous lifeforms of the Rachni and Thorian, and they paid for it in blood.

Cerberus commited additional atrocities against Shepard via the Akuze massacre, the torture of Toombs, and the murder of Admiral Kahoku and his men.

Cerberus brought back Shepard, and again almost killed her/him with a traitorous mole in their ranks. And to that an ends-kind of leader who seeks to master Reaper technology... what could go wrong?

This indoctrination might be too convenient a plot device for an entity that's been featured strongly in both ME games; however, it is also quite believable and poetic.

[Davie McG]

Not read the whole thread, so I don't know if this has been said:

Haven't we only seen evidence of one group of Cerberus troops being indoctrinated and not TIM?

I know we apparently fight Cerberus 40% of the time but that was the case in mass effect one, and TIM wasn't indoctrinated then. TIM has plenty reasons to want Shepard's head to roll.

Not saying it's not possible I just don't want Saren 2.0 with a Cerberus army in place of a Geth one.

[fenrya13]

   When it comes to indoctrination, TIM is not the 2.0 Saren was. TIM and Saren's indroctination both began the same way, in the comics. But, TIM was the one that it happened to first. People have mentioned before that they have the same eyes; guess what, it's because they were both exposed to same peice of reaper tech.
     That exposure is probably the reason that Saren was able to track down Soverign to be begin with. Soverign was probably "calling" to both of them and TIM just happened to be stronger willed. With all the reapers heading into the galavy at once though chances are that Tim just flat isn't strong enough to resist anymore.

[Savber100]

And we're concluding this with what? A 2-3 second comments on the supposed indoctrination? ;P

It's like seeing a snippet of the Reaper IFF mission in ME2 and conclude that Cerberus were all indoctrinated husks.

[KevShep]

kotor610 wrote...

i would like to think that Cerberus's connection to the reapers is complex and full of twists, but after ME2; my faith that they can still deliver on this deepness is rapidly eroding. With a massive push towards the fps audience, and over simplifying the decisions in mass mass effect one; from shades of grey to a rudimentary goodevil. i was not angry that Cerberus is the main infantry baddie in the game, its just that they couldn't find a unique reason to why Cerberus is after you.

I believe that they have found a unique reason why. I KNOW that there will be awesome plot twists in ME3 and one of the big ones is going to be about cerberus working for the reapers. Knowing that I....highly doubt....that cerberus would turn out to be just indoctrinated, or just part of cerberus is indoctrinated because that is hardly a twist at all. On top of that Bioware states that cerberus is working for the reapers, and if they have announced that 9 mouths before release then that does not leave much room for thought about why cerberus is with them. If they were indoctrinated then Bioware would NOT tell people about cerberus working for the reapers because...THAT....would be the twist....so because they have stated that cerberus is in on the reapers plan then that means that they are....NOT incdoctrinated and that there...IS...a really big twist about cerberus!

[sevach]

If they go with simple indocrination (which i'm against), at least develop this point.

How exactly indocrination works? Can it be cured/combated/blocked?
Right now it's just an easy way out of ridculous plot "twists".

"But i've just saved her, she taught me her whole plan... why is she trying to kill me???"

Oh... yeah...ahhhh... she's indocrinated!!!!

Modifié par sevach, 03 juillet 2011 - 06:04 .

[Wolfborn Son]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sci-fi is sci-fi, fantasy is fantasy. Technology and science are NOT magic.
Reper tech can be understood and countered and even replicated..of course, it takes time and research.

Eh, Mass Effect
really isn't pure sci-fi. It has a universe destroying cosmic evil,
a messianic hero, and magic by another name.  Having pure Reaper tech (i.e.: stuff that actually came off a Reaper, not simply tech based off it) really isn't that big of a leap.  Especially considering the Reapers themselves are robo-Cthulhus.

[Seboist]

laecraft wrote...

Who cares how they came to be indoctrinated? It's the result that matters. Suppose that at the very beginning of the ME3 you learn that the Earth has been wiped out, all humanity died, and you're the last human in the galaxy. Do you really want to play the game to unravel the mystery of why? Unless it's going to change something, like discovering that the Earth isn't really destroyed, but merely moved into a parallel dimension from where you can extract it, what's the point of learning why and how?

True, unless I can realign my Shepard with TIM and Cerberus again they're nothing but Blue Suns and Eclipse to me.

[Getorex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

A quick comment on the Cerberus and morality issue.

Morality is a luxury one can indulge in when ALIVE and safe. All the morality in the world will be useless if your entire race is dead.
Cerberus at this point is necessary. And no, it's not fully evil. Don't forget that your crew is mostly Cerberus and they seem a nice bunch.

And I'm saying this prom the position of a goody-two-shoes player who always plays paladins/paragons and stuff like that.


Also, human dominance is a good thing if you're human. Pecking order exist in the universe.
It's why the big powerfull nations can do almost whatever they want and why the small nations have 0 power/influence.

Ugh.  So here we have one of those "torture apologists" who likely was A-OK with Bush's (and now Obama's) torture system.  "The situation is/was dire and we needed information so...it's OK when we do it."  Except for one inconvenient fact:  it isn't humanity that is in danger here, it is ALL the various alien races/civilizations.  It is NOT as if humanity is stuck out on a limb getting screwed by all the other races, they are merely all there on the same limb as everyone else.

The morality issue is simple on this issue.  Cerberus and the insane (literally) Illusive Man was created with one premise in mind: this is a zero-sum game so for humans to do well all other alien races MUST do poorly, ie, humans MUST dominate/eliminate all the alien species and Cerberus is there to ensure that outcome. False premise and therefore all actions that spring from that premise are indefensible and unacceptable.

It is immoral and erroneous on its face  There is no moral argument for TIM to select a "few eggs" that "need to be broken to make an omelete."   Let me illustrate the immorality (no way to argue otherwise) of the Illusive Man from "Mass Effect: Retribution".  TIM "selects" Grayson, a former Cerberus terrorist who saw the light and quit, to be an egg to make an omelette because of TIM's god complex and his sociopathy that demands revenge.  TIM selects Grayson to be a "hero" to the human race and forcefully and against Grayson's will has him indoctrinated so they could study the process.  In doing this, TIM enlists a whole host of outright sociopaths to do his dirty work.  He has no problem killing any aliens (or having them killed) no matter how innocent they are just because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Same goes for human victims, by the way.  Later in that story, it appears that TIM may be about to be captured/killed.  He whines (to himself) about becoming a martyr - but boo-hoo-hoo he isn't ready to die.  BOO-F*CKING-HOO.  TIM selects people, HUMANS AND ALIENS ALIKE to die for HIS purposes and for reasons HE decides are "worthy" but when it comes to looking his own demise in the face, wa-wa-wa, he's a cowardly crybaby hypocrite.  

Immoral, cowardly, terroristic. 

There is no argument that Cerberus is "necessary" because our very existence is on the line (I was just following orders comes next, by the way).  Cerberus started out with the intent to eliminate/dominate/crush all alien species before the Reapers or Collectors was every considered.  TIM got all crazy-assed shortly after the first mass relay was found, activated, and used.  There's no excuse.  Hell, the books (when they include Cerberus) is full of racist, violently anti-alien/xenophobic crap.  Cerberus terrorist clowns despise Omega, for instance, as an example of what's wrong with alien cultures!  As if there has never ever been anything like Omega in HUMAN history.  As if Omega is an example of "real" alien cultures.  Omega is an example of what is horrible and wrong and unacceptable about alien species and cultures so what does that make of the Citadel and the entirety of Citadel Space?  

My point is that Cerberus has no valid reason for existence, it is a mere terrorist/merc op that serves to enrich/empower one megalomaniacal self-appointed god-figure (TIM).  

[Ahglock]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Ugh.  So here we have one of those "torture apologists" who likely was A-OK with Bush's (and now Obama's) torture system.

Damn right. People like you really need to wake up and smell the reality.

The reality that real life politics and game boards don't mix is what you meant right?  

[Getorex]

The idea that TIM is another Saren is one I like. It would take all the nasty, evil, abhorrent, unethical sh*t that Cerberus has pulled, all the unethical and immoral experiments, the torture and abuse towards that end and make it merely the Reapers work via TIM.

TIM and his terrorist scum all yammer anti-alien nonsense and conduct nasty experiment after experiment on unwilling subjects, human and alien alike, and it would all be NOT in some "service to humanity" but rather in service to the Reapers.

[Getorex]

Ahglock wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Getorex wrote...

Ugh.  So here we have one of those "torture apologists" who likely was A-OK with Bush's (and now Obama's) torture system.

Damn right. People like you really need to wake up and smell the reality.

The reality that real life politics and game boards don't mix is what you meant right?  

Buddy, I've had all the 'reality' I need to make my judgements.  I'm a vet.  I've been to Iraq, have you?  Hell, I've been in the military for YEARS and I don't buy into that CRAP.  It's cowardly, it's unethical, it's unAmerican, it's against the friggin law (laws WE wrote for hell's sake - Reagan himself signed off on the Conventions Against Torture, Abuse, and Inhumane Treatment).  Some people hide under their beds, wet their pants, and scream and cry for mommy to torture the bad brown man (women and children too) so they don't have to look at brown people.  I wont have any of that crap.  Not in reality, not in games.  

Cowards drop their principles and their ethics at the first gunshot.  I wont tolerate that sh*t from anyone, superior or subordinate, civilian or miltiary.  Makes me wanna puke and beat the sh*t out of them at the same time.