31 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Based on the note "A Reply from Starkhaven," written by First Enchanter Raddick, it seems that Gascard DuPuis was looking for Quentin in the Starkhaven Circle. When Hawke encounters Quentin, he's clearly insane, and his descent is similar to other Starkhaven mages that Hawke has met. Hawke meets Starkhaven mages Decimus and Grace, both of whom are insane and demonstrate no rationality in their actions. Decimus attacks Hawke and his companions when he can't rationally discern the difference between Hawke and the templars, and Grace irrationally believes that Hawke is behind her capture even when he aided her. Alain mentions to Hawke during "Best Served Cold" how the Circle in Kirkwall is even "worse" than Starkhaven, which implies that it was a bad enviornment to begin with. Hawke meets Starkhaven mages who have lost their sanity, and it's possible the other insane mages Hawke encountered could be other escaped Starkhaven mages who fled after the fire destroyed their Circle Tower. Could it simply be a coincidence that these Starkhaven mages are mentally unbalanced, or  are they a product of the Starkhaven Circle?

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Could be either, but the ones we encounter seem to have left the circle some time ago, so I tend to think they are similar to Anders in their dislike of the circle and have been rogue mages for some time since what they do would not be tolerated in the circle and, they are quite skilled. In short they are apostates who don't give a flip if they deal with demons, any means to an end is okay by them.

[Areksu]

It would be more accurate to say they are a product of their environment. The purpose of the circle is to raise mages of good moral character and act as a place where they can safely master their powers without being a threat to everyone else. The templars have lost sight of the original purpose of the circles and are instead treating the circles as prisons purely to contain mages. Remember, their modo is "magic is to serve man, not rule over him." Its kind of hard for magic to serve anyone if you lock all your mages up and treat them like monsters.

[Areksu]

The Kirkwall circle is so messed up that there is fault on both sides. The templars want to treat the circle purely as a prison, and the headmaster refuses to cooperate with the templars in rooting out corruption. The circle and templars in Kirkwall are a festering pool of corruption. Its one of the reasons I wish they gave a third, harder to pull off, ending involving clean sweeping them both with help from the cities standing army.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Grace, Decimus, Quentin... is Orsino possibly a Starkhavener too, because that would make all of the blindly insane mages Starkhaners. Perhaps there really is something going on over there.

From now on, I'm going to imagine that the Starkhaven Templars are an order of rogues who often to plainrobes ops to infiltrate the mage underground, and can turn invisible. Orsino had just been driven paranoid, figured that things were going to well, and that therefore stealthy Templars must be surrounding him. Grace and Decimus just thought you were a spy.

[whykikyouwhy]

I don't think the perceived madness, or rather, the extremist tendencies, is something inherent to Starkhaven. As Areksu stated, it's environmental. The original intent of the Circle has been lost - the fostering of powers and knowledge has, for the most part, been replaced by a prison state spawned from fear and prejudice. Instead of allowing magic to thrive and "help man", it is suppressed and controlled. So the mages may be simply reacting, again in extremes, to being treated as less, to being rounded up, branded etc. Desperation can yield action in the negative, and if there is no apparent desire (from the templars etc) to create a peaceful and welcoming existence, you get "mad" mages. Just my opinion, mind.

[DreamerM]

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

Grace, Decimus, Quentin... is Orsino possibly a Starkhavener too, because that would make all of the blindly insane mages Starkhaners.

I still refuse to count Orsino as amoung the mad mages, just because I like to pretend that Harvestino happened when Hawke and Co. slipped for a moment into an alternate reality where that plot development would actually make sense.

But yes, for all the talk about Kirkwall's wonky veil, failed Harrowings and high incidents of blood magic, the actual crazy mages we met were mostly either apostates or escapees from Starkhaven. Maybe it's something in the water there. Or maybe it's something in the water here that didn't react well to the something in the water that they drunk before. Or maybe nobody was paying attention.

[Wulfram]

Do we ever hear how the Starkhaven circle came to burn down?

Modifié par Wulfram, 30 juin 2011 - 05:25 .

[Annarl]

Maybe we'll have to go to Starkhaven.

[FJVP]

Wulfram wrote...

Do we ever hear how the Starkhaven circle came to burn down?

Alain suspects that it was Decimus the one that started the fire.

[Mr.House]

Quentin became crazy because his wife died, not because he was from a circle.

[Torax]

At least remember crazy is not just Starkhaven mages. Let us not forget the 2 Blood Mages Meredith has you hunt down. One is from Fereldon's Circle and the other was an Elf from Kirkwall that was housed just in Kirkwall's Circle.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Torax wrote...

At least remember crazy is not just Starkhaven mages. Let us not forget the 2 Blood Mages Meredith has you hunt down. One is from Fereldon's Circle and the other was an Elf from Kirkwall that was housed just in Kirkwall's Circle.

Both of those actually have reason to attack you, unlike some people I could mention....

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

At least remember crazy is not just Starkhaven mages. Let us not forget the 2 Blood Mages Meredith has you hunt down. One is from Fereldon's Circle and the other was an Elf from Kirkwall that was housed just in Kirkwall's Circle.

That's true, Huon and Evelina lost it, too, but Huon was likely sane prior to being imprisoned in Kirkwall's Circle ten years ago, when he was living in the Alienage with his wife as an apostate, and Evelina was sane during her years in the Circle of Ferelden and only lost it once she was imprisoned under Meredith's regime in the Gallows. If the Circle of Starkhaven was bad and lead to insane mages like Decimus, Grace, and Quentin (who couldn't be that sane to start with if losing his wife turned him into a serial killer), and Alain addresses that the Circle of Kirkwall is even worse than the Circle of Starkhaven, I can see why Huon and Evelina are as past the point of no return when Hawke finds them.

[Rifneno]

Areksu wrote...

The Kirkwall circle is so messed up that there is fault on both sides. The templars want to treat the circle purely as a prison, and the headmaster refuses to cooperate with the templars in rooting out corruption. The circle and templars in Kirkwall are a festering pool of corruption. Its one of the reasons I wish they gave a third, harder to pull off, ending involving clean sweeping them both with help from the cities standing army.

I positively refuse to blame Orsino for not helping Meredith "root out corruption." Yes, he put up a fuss about her searching everything. Anyone would. Look at the fascist's punishments for "crimes" in the past. Karl was made tranquil for writing a letter saying "it sucks here." Samson, one of their own men, was thrown out of the order and condemned to the horrific fate that is lyrium withdrawal because he was caught taking some mage's goodbye love letter to the girl he'll never see again because of the Chantry. For trying to deliver a love letter, they condemned one of those own men to a slow and cruel death. And you wonder why Orsino opposed her searching the tower out of the blue? They'd probably be tranquilling mages for a cupcake hidden in their pillowcase. Of course, we all know what Meredith was really looking for and Orsino knew it too. She was looking for something she could use to justify genocide.

The blame for that lies 100% with the templars. 100%. There is none, zero, zilch on Orsino's head for the search refusal.

FJVP wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Do we ever hear how the Starkhaven circle came to burn down?

Alain suspects that it was Decimus the one that started the fire.

And Sebastian suspects that Lady Harimann was behind it. Well he didn't name her, he said whomever was responsible for his family's murders, he just didn't know who was at the time. Anyway he said that the fire instantly removed the Vael's two biggest allies: the templars and the circle. Both are good theories but there's nothing more than motive to support either. I doubt we'll ever know.

Filament wrote...

Also, they're unbalanced because they're mages. Can't trust the lot of them.

Sometimes I wish we had an eye roll smiley. *sigh*

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

At least remember crazy is not just Starkhaven mages. Let us not forget the 2 Blood Mages Meredith has you hunt down. One is from Fereldon's Circle and the other was an Elf from Kirkwall that was housed just in Kirkwall's Circle.

That's true, Huon and Evelina lost it, too, but Huon was likely sane prior to being imprisoned in Kirkwall's Circle ten years ago, when he was living in the Alienage with his wife as an apostate, and Evelina was sane during her years in the Circle of Ferelden and only lost it once she was imprisoned under Meredith's regime in the Gallows. If the Circle of Starkhaven was bad and lead to insane mages like Decimus, Grace, and Quentin (who couldn't be that sane to start with if losing his wife turned him into a serial killer), and Alain addresses that the Circle of Kirkwall is even worse than the Circle of Starkhaven, I can see why Huon and Evelina are as past the point of no return when Hawke finds them.

To be fair when we're calling them insane. Whose to say when Evelina joined with the Demon? She was just no longer herself (i.e. joined with the demon) before she even talked to the boys after escaping. I'm mixed about Huon. Part of me wonders if his pride was as great as Edric's in Origins. I could be picture that if the Elven Apprentice in Origins found those Blood Magic Books that Jowan may have read? If he wouldn't have been acting much like Huon if he escaped. But I think there were demons influencing so many of the "insane" or "crazy" mages we've ran into. Plus whose to say if the resolutionists weren't slowly putting thoughts into the minds of some of the more unstable members of Kirkwall's Circle to push them over the edge. Regardless I doubt the crazy outlandish mages were not just exclussively from Starkhaven.

Modifié par Torax, 30 juin 2011 - 06:58 .

[Torax]

Filament wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Filament wrote...

Also, they're unbalanced because they're mages. Can't trust the lot of them.

Sometimes I wish we had an eye roll smiley. *sigh*

Why just recently, I do recall our friend Foolsfolly here advocating the barbaric Tevinter practice of permanent petrification! You see the kind of people who support mages? The templars rest our case.

I'm just gonna sit in the middle ground listening to this

[TEWR]

And Sebastian suspects that Lady Harimann was behind it. Well he didn't name her, he said whomever was responsible for his family's murders, he just didn't know who was at the time. Anyway he said that the fire instantly removed the Vael's two biggest allies: the templars and the circle. Both are good theories but there's nothing more than motive to support either. I doubt we'll ever know.

Where's he say the fire removed the allies of the Vael family?

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

That's true, Huon and Evelina lost it, too, but Huon was likely sane prior to being imprisoned in Kirkwall's Circle ten years ago, when he was living in the Alienage with his wife as an apostate, and Evelina was sane during her years in the Circle of Ferelden and only lost it once she was imprisoned under Meredith's regime in the Gallows. If the Circle of Starkhaven was bad and lead to insane mages like Decimus, Grace, and Quentin (who couldn't be that sane to start with if losing his wife turned him into a serial killer), and Alain addresses that the Circle of Kirkwall is even worse than the Circle of Starkhaven, I can see why Huon and Evelina are as past the point of no return when Hawke finds them.

To be fair when we're calling them insane. Whose to say when Evelina joined with the Demon? She was just no longer herself (i.e. joined with the demon) before she even talked to the boys after escaping. I'm mixed about Huon. Part of me wonders if his pride was as great as Edric's in Origins. I could be picture that if the Elven Apprentice in Origins found those Blood Magic Books that Jowan may have read? If he wouldn't have been acting much like Huon if he escaped. But I think there were demons influencing so many of the "insane" or "crazy" mages we've ran into. Plus whose to say if the resolutionists weren't slowly putting thoughts into the minds of some of the more unstable members of Kirkwall's Circle to push them over the edge. Regardless I doubt the crazy outlandish mages were not just exclussively from Starkhaven.

Huon was demented. I didn't see any pride, but insanity. Huon's wife describes how he was chained and lead out of the Alienage by the templars, and I can imagine spending ten years under the regime of Meredith would drive anyone insane with templars like Ser Kerras and Ser Alrik. This isn't the Circle of Ferelden with Knight-Commander Greagoir, after all. When he thought Cullen shouldn't be in a position of authority over mages, Greagoir had him removed from being in the Circle of Ferelden. That doesn't seem to be the case with Knight-Commander Meredith, especially when we see one sadistic templar who tortured a da'len hunter in Act II.

I never claimed all the insane mages were exclusively from Starkhaven, but we see more than one insane mage from the Circle of Starkhaven, so I don't think it's a coincidence that the enviornment lead to a plethora of mentally unstable individuals. As for the Resolutionists, I don't think we can blame them when we know Kirkwall mages get beaten for speaking to civilians and the proprietor asks Hawke not to steal because she will get beaten if items are stolen. Then there's Alain's confession about a templar coming into his room late at night, and I see no reason to place blame at the feet of the Resolutionists for the monstrous enviornment that Meredith cultivated.

[Torax]

Lob I'm sorry but your automatic bias against the opposition would put somethings suspect. You tend to look at both the Templars & Chantry for their Faults while ignoring the mages are as bad also at times as worse if not far more worse. They have faults. I will take Leliana at her word that the Resolutionists were there for some time and helping the efforts outside. As for Quintan. I'm leaning to him not being directly from Starkhaven. I think he was more like his former Apprentice as Mages outside the Circles. But Q had many connections and some how was able to communicate with both Circles. I assume there was far more going on. Plus who knows how many other hidden parties/factions that were at play over time. The Resolutionists could have even been a part of the underground Anders was working with originally. Point is you can't rule out the possible blood mages trying to incite a war over time just like we can't rule out every last theory a random player comes up with. But don't shield yourself like it's black and white. For every bad templar you name there are as many evil mages but you're quick to blame the Templars and the Circle and not the mages who made deals with demons and committed the evil, vindictive acts themselves.

Modifié par Torax, 30 juin 2011 - 07:23 .

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And Sebastian suspects that Lady Harimann was behind it. Well he didn't name her, he said whomever was responsible for his family's murders, he just didn't know who was at the time. Anyway he said that the fire instantly removed the Vael's two biggest allies: the templars and the circle. Both are good theories but there's nothing more than motive to support either. I doubt we'll ever know.

Where's he say the fire removed the allies of the Vael family?

I don't remember exactly when, but I'm almost certain it was in an optional dialogue in Act I.

Torax wrote...

Lob I'm sorry but your automatic bias against the opposition would put somethings suspect.

I'll take his word over that of someone who made a habit of making pro-templar post after pro-templar post and ending them with a laughable proclamation of being a mage advocate to give themselves a false credibility. Lobsel's been upfront about things, unlike you.

[Torax]

I'm not pro-templar. Never have been. I've never even sided with the Templars. You are reading them from point of view where obviously people can only be one or the other. I just state the situations as I saw them. Just because that conflicts with the Lib mage fans does not make me a supporter of the Chantry. I just refuse to believe that one side is blameless.

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

Lob I'm sorry but your automatic bias against the opposition would put somethings suspect. You tend to look at both the Templars & Chantry for their Faults while ignoring the mages are as bad also at times as worse if not far more worse. They have faults.

I don't ignore that mages have no faults. I've addressed the faults of First Enchanter Irving and leaving books on blood magic in the library, I've addressed the poor decision of Keeper Marethari to deal with Audacity, I've addressed how it was foolish for Avernus to summon so many demons through demonology when he couldn't possibily control all of them. You seem to continually take offense to any criticism made against the Chantry controlled Circles and refuse to participate in discussion without claiming that people have an automatic bias simply because they think it's the wrong method to take. You did the same thing when I asked how the Dalish would view Merrill if she defended the mages and was part of the legend of Hawke standing up to a group that the Dalish have no love for over at the Merrill thread, and you automatically took the stand that I was claiming that templars are evil.

There are good templars, and I've addressed them time and again - Ser Bryant, the templars in Lothering who were watching over the surviviors from the Blight, Ser Otto, and I'd argue Knight-Commander Greagoir. I never claimed the mages didn't have any faults, and I addressed that I think Knight-Commander Greagoir is much better than Knight-Commander Meredith and even made a decision to keep Cullen out of his administration when he thought he shouldn't be watching over mages, but having three insane mages coming from the same Circle makes me think there's more at work here than mere coincidence.

Torax wrote...

I will take Leliana at her word that the Resolutionists were there for some time and helping the efforts outside.

I don't take Leliana at her word because she completely ignores the Knight-Commander turned dictator who has people in Kirkwall wanting her ousted from power but blames the mages entirely for the unrest. She seemed to be incompetent, to be quite honest.

Torax wrote...

As for Quintan. I'm leaning to him not being directly from Starkhaven. I think he was more like his former Apprentice as Mages outside the Circles. But Q had many connections and some how was able to communicate with both Circles. I assume there was far more going on. Plus who knows how many other hidden parties/factions that were at play over time.

Except Gascard was searching for a mage inside the Circle of Starkhaven, and the only mage we know that he was looking for was Quentin.

Torax wrote...

The Resolutionists could have even been a part of the underground Anders was working with originally.

There's no evidence that the underground movement to relocate mages to a safe haven away from Meredith had anything to do with a violent group of mages. They aren't even aiming for the same goals, so why would you think Anders' underground movement was tied to the Resolutionists?

Torax wrote...

Point is you can't rule out the possible blood mages trying to incite a war over time just like we can't rule out every last theory a random player comes up with. But don't shield yourself like it's black and white. For every bad templar you name there are as many evil mages but you're quick to blame the Templars and the Circle and not the mages who made deals with demons and committed the evil, vindictive acts themselves.

You clearly missed out all the times I addressed that I think Ser Thrask died for an asinine quest, and that I think he should have lived. I don't buy into the line of thought that all mages are good or that all templars are evil. He was a good character who was wasted in Act III. However, this thread is focusing on the Circle of Starkhaven where three insane mages came from because Alain has addressed that it wasn't a good place, when he said that the Circle of Kirkwall was much worse (which is why mages and templars were working together to oust Meredith from her position of power). If you think it's a coincidence, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.