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"Calibrations", extreme conversation railroading, or.....a third solution


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#1
Ieldra

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This is about how to deal with team members having nothing to say at the moment.

Many players of ME1 and (more so) ME2 have been annoyed by the "calibrations" type line, when they repeatedly visit their team members only to be put off by some line indicating they don't want to talk, often perceived as somewhat rude.

The solution DA2 had for this problem is to make a conversation like a quest: just wait until the message that you should now talk to your team member appears in the journal and you're fine.

I did not like that solution. It contributed to my feeling of being completely unfree to act as I want in DA2, being constrained and railroaded, almost hounded, even in unimportant parts of the game and things that should be the result of exploration, untouched by any quest mechanics. Given these two alternatives, I'd take the calibrations any day.

I'd like to propose some elements for a different solution. In the following paragraphs, I'm using "calibrations" as a term for any line team members say indicating that they have nothing to say.

(1) If characters don't have anything to say at some point, remove the "can we talk" option from the dialogue wheel after the player got the "calibrations" once, instead of make it trigger the "calibrations" repeatedly. If the reason for them not having to say anything has changed since the last attempt (for instance lost loyalty vs. no new topics available), let the player get *that* line once, then remove the option from the dialogue wheel.

(2) To make in-between talks more interesting, give us a few added personal or generic topics and/or the ability to revisit topics already explored in a major conversation. These should NOT vanish after having been used, and we don't need a unique choreography for these minor talks. In fact, they could be just like those (usually two) options that are always available in the talks with ME2 team members, only more of them. Other team members could also be an interesting minor topic. I suspect almost all players won't really care that they might go over stuff repeatedly, as long as they don't hit the "calibrations" and are put off by the perceived rudeness. We know that the game can't implement unlimited conversations like in real life.

(3) If romanced, a character should have added options available at any time you talk with them. Depending on the romance stage, something like having a glass of wine together, a kiss or even a little sex scene (can be 10 seconds and fade-to-black) should be available repeatedly. That would make a romance feel 100% more authentic.

So much for now. Any additions, criticisms and alternatives are welcome.
 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 juin 2011 - 01:59 .


#2
legion999

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"I approve"

#3
who would know

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I loved how Mordin had a mix of "calibrations" lines. Nothing repeated ad nauseam. Visit worth it every time, even if full conversation unavailable.

#4
Eurhetemec

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I don't think there's any question that what you propose would be a better design. 2 & 3 are cool-but-optional, but really 1 is just plain superior to the system in ME2, which was particularly frustrating with characters who were rude or said crazy-seeming things when you just wanted to check if they had anything to say - Jack is particularly weird for this, as her "I have nothing to say" dialogue becomes one that's only appropriate to a male Shepard who messed up a romance with her.

#5
-Skorpious-

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How about adding friendship interactive scenes as well? Sort of like how you can invite Kelly to eat dinner with you, yet it is not content strictly for those who have Kelly as an LI (the player has the ability to advance the relationship further or simply view the occasion as a friendly meal between friends).

I'm not saying that LI related content should be written to appease both the LI/friendship paths, but each character should have at least one fully interactive bit at the conclusion of their "friendship" sub-plot - i.e Garrus inviting Shepard to the firing range target practice for example.

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 30 juin 2011 - 02:32 .


#6
yummysoap

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I don't understand why Bioware couldn't just go:

Shepard: What's happening, Jacob?
Jacob: Not much.
Shepard: Kay.

Surely that's better than these ridiculous blunt excuses and occasionally hostile remarks that just makes it seem like Shepard is that uncool kid in school who's starving for the affection of others but being repetitively blown off at every attempt of conversation he makes.

#7
Smeelia

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Your suggestions are good, it does make sense that you simply shouldn't be able to ask if there's nothing new to say at least.

who would know wrote...

I loved how Mordin had a mix of "calibrations" lines. Nothing repeated ad nauseam. Visit worth it every time, even if full conversation unavailable.

Mordin was definately the best for post-mission chats, if everyone had interesting comments then it wouldn't be so bad even if they repeated after a while.

-Skorpious- wrote...

How about adding friendship interactive scenes as well?

I like that idea, I think they're supposed to be having more crew interaction and this sort of thing could be part of that (get everyone around the Captain's Table, of course Shepard would need a Captain's Table first).  Drinking with Chakwas was actually quite fun and it made her feel like more of a real person, it's a shame that she mostly went back to being a generic background character afterwards though.

#8
Shadeart

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Big deal!

#9
In Exile

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yummysoap wrote...

I don't understand why Bioware couldn't just go:

Shepard: What's happening, Jacob?
Jacob: Not much.
Shepard: Kay.

Surely that's better than these ridiculous blunt excuses and occasionally hostile remarks that just makes it seem like Shepard is that uncool kid in school who's starving for the affection of others but being repetitively blown off at every attempt of conversation he makes.


Apparently, Bioware believes that the only reason someone would have not to talk to Shepard is being legitimately busy.

#10
Labrev

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Garrus, if you tried to talk to him in ME1 and he had nothing left to say, would simply say "Commander, good to see you" without the dialogue wheel appearing at all. IMO that would be one decent way to conclude exhausted dialogue.

#11
Lumikki

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Not sure what OP is trying to say, I seem to have some language barrier here.

1. You mean if they have nothing to say, you can't talk them?
-They can just say something without dialog weel comming up..

2. Like interupt talking and then come back to continue it? Other ways conflicting with 1.
- Point been if you did all talking, they don't repeat same stuff, because nothing to talk anymore.

3. IF -word is what I care, because I don't want to even see anything romance related
- I would like to be just friends, nothing more.

Basicly I play like professional solder on missions, my mind is focusing into missions nothing else. I don't care personal stuff at all. My only interest about squad members talking is, if they have something to say related missions as opinions.

As for trying to put player middle of squad members opinions in missions, don't. Let every squad members have they own personality and opinion, what happen will happen. Example both squad members could be recomment agaist action. Not so like Bioware usually does, bend squad members personality so that one is allways agaist and other allways support action.

Modifié par Lumikki, 30 juin 2011 - 05:22 .


#12
phantomdragoness

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I fully support Ieldra2's idea, even this:

Shepard: Hey, what's going on?
Crew Member: Nothing much.
Shepard: Alright, see you later!

It's the final game, and BioWare did say they were going to improve conversations and relationships with crew members. So, I'm hopeful. :)

#13
Mims

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If even the tone of the calibrations type lines was changed, it'd be a huge improvement. So many of them felt more like they were brushing Shepard off [Garrus, Miranda, Thane...] then simply being too busy.

#14
tykfa1990

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I think the way we spoken with Joker were nice. Old friends, mostly joking at everything. And I agree to what someone said, if they already record hours of dialogues for character talks, why not record some "common" and "usual" answers you get when someone asks you "how it's going"? Or maybe something to make the lore deeper? Like when you use all interactive speaking options, you could ask Mordin about his student, or "How's Kolyat Thane? Everything good? -I suppose so, he's not writing much. Means no problems. Thanks for asking" Tadah! Was that hard? And a bunch of answers like that alternationg will do the trick. OR... Maybe the crew members start moving around the ship? It would be hard to speak to someone who sleeps, eats at the cantina, lies under the main engine in the middle of some repairs ( Tali ), taking a shower. Just plain activities, that require ones attention or privacy. Good enough reason not to record tons of stupid "get-lost-please" lines. ^^

#15
Eurhetemec

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Lumikki wrote...

Not sure what OP is trying to say, I seem to have some language barrier here.

1. You mean if they have nothing to say, you can't talk them?
-They can just say something without dialog weel comming up..

2. Like interupt talking and then come back to continue it? Other ways conflicting with 1.
- Point been if you did all talking, they don't repeat same stuff, because nothing to talk anymore.

3. IF -word is what I care, because I don't want to even see anything romance related
- I would like to be just friends, nothing more.

Basicly I play like professional solder on missions, my mind is focusing into missions nothing else. I don't care personal stuff at all. My only interest about squad members talking is, if they have something to say related missions as opinions.

As for trying to put player middle of squad members opinions in missions, don't. Let every squad members have they own personality and opinion, what happen will happen. Example both squad members could be recomment agaist action. Not so like Bioware usually does, bend squad members personality so that one is allways agaist and other allways support action.


Lumikki, I'll outline it for you:

The OP is upset because in response to the "I'd like to talk about you."-type option in dialogue, many NPCs say something weird/rude if they don't have anything more to say at this time. For example, Jacob says "I don't think we should force these little talks..." or soemthing to that effect.

The OP would like to say that there is no "I'd like to talk about you." option when the NPC has nothing to say, instead of having these weird responses. To me this seems very sensible.

#16
Ieldra

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Eurhetemec wrote...
Lumikki, I'll outline it for you:

The OP is upset because in response to the "I'd like to talk about you."-type option in dialogue, many NPCs say something weird/rude if they don't have anything more to say at this time. For example, Jacob says "I don't think we should force these little talks..." or soemthing to that effect.

The OP would like to say that there is no "I'd like to talk about you." option when the NPC has nothing to say, instead of having these weird responses. To me this seems very sensible.

If I may correct you:

The calibrations-type dialogue was not optimal, but what I really fear is the DA2 treatment - being railroaded into all conversations by the journal and losiing all illusions of doing things on your own initiative. That would have the potential of ruining my team members and the whole game for me if it's bad enough.

Anything, really ANYTHING is better that the DA2 "solution". The journal should only tell me to talk to my team members if it's important as a mission trigger. Character exploration is NO MISSION, damn it!

Modifié par Ieldra2, 30 juin 2011 - 05:44 .


#17
Lumikki

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Eurhetemec wrote...

Lumikki, I'll outline it for you:

The OP is upset because in response to the "I'd like to talk about you."-type option in dialogue, many NPCs say something weird/rude if they don't have anything more to say at this time. For example, Jacob says "I don't think we should force these little talks..." or soemthing to that effect.

The OP would like to say that there is no "I'd like to talk about you." option when the NPC has nothing to say, instead of having these weird responses. To me this seems very sensible.

Thanks, seem to be reasonable wanting everyone be little more polite. At least if the person isn't by nature rude one.

#18
MrSuperCrazyAwesome

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I'd like to be able to talk to squad members without romancing them. I mean, there would be 2 paths to pursue conversations with people. As in, one would lead to a romance, while I could still also talk to them as a friend if I didn't want to romance them.

#19
IrishSpectre257

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"Shepard?"

"I should go."

They should really just change the line to "Just checking in, don't mind me." or something along those lines if you leave the conversation without actually saying anything.

#20
Reever

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Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Garrus, if you tried to talk to him in ME1 and he had nothing left to say, would simply say "Commander, good to see you" without the dialogue wheel appearing at all. IMO that would be one decent way to conclude exhausted dialogue.


This and the OP´s solutions are pretty good in my opinion!

Haven´t played DA2, but I wouldn´t like discussions being seen as "quests" or something....

#21
Chuvvy

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I don't have problem with the line, I have a problem with the fact that Garrus had two conversations for a 30 hour game. It was like I was rationing my food in a survival situation. And all the other female characters only had three if you didn't want to **** them. It was stupid. I'd like one conversation per mission or at the least one every two. In ME2 it worked out to be one every three or four. (Not including Garrus)

#22
DaveExclamationMarkYognaut

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I really like the way it was handled with Zaeed and Kasumi. Those characters felt a lot more real than the characters with dialogue trees, honestly. Maybe a hybrid of the two systems would be good.

#23
DaveExclamationMarkYognaut

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MrSuperCrazyAwesome wrote...

I'd like to be able to talk to squad members without romancing them. I mean, there would be 2 paths to pursue conversations with people. As in, one would lead to a romance, while I could still also talk to them as a friend if I didn't want to romance them.


+1.

People are only going to be able to access 1 romance path at most, but will be able to access all the friendship (or rivalry, or whatever) paths on any given playthrough. Therefore, it's a terrible design decision to put all the content at the end of the romance paths.

#24
Destroy Raiden_

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I'm tired of feeling like an unloved sibling around my crew when I repeatedly after every mission run over to them happy to talk to them and they say, " I'm Calibrating," , " I'm fixing engines," , " I'm too busy for you!" I think after main story quest they should have brandnew dialogue that we can't access prior to that and after stressful action packed sidequest. I mean I run into a sidequest with merc I blow them to pieces and I go to Garrus who would appreciate such a quest and he says he's busy why not open up new content where he talks about Omega were him and his crew raided a place and did such and such and then asks shep about the good old days blowing away Cerberus back in ME.

If say I don't do that merc mission and say do one were we had to save a Quarian he might say that was great we saved her but end it at that. Tali however would be the one to open up and reveal more about her past experiences and life.

And of course after main quest they'll tell use more things about them. I like being able to talk to my crew and in ME they did progress rather well after main quest I got loads of new things to find out about them.

Removing the can we talk when so and so is just too busy would be fine. I definitely don't want to get a page saying speak to so and so I find it uber annoying already that Kelly keeps saying that in 2.

And if people are going to have personal crisis don't make them all have it in the same hour space it out some have issues in the 1st half of the game, other have it 2nd half, and others haves it 3rd half and some personal favors are time sensitive so say Miranda again has an issue with her sister if I wait too long her sister dies or whatever. Other's won't have time limit like Garru's mom say I say sure I'll go check on her with you she'll just hold out till I get around to seeing her.

#25
shadowreflexion

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Ieldra2 wrote...

 

Not too much I can add. Very well written. The "quest" option for conversations I don't fully agree with. I figure that if EDI or Kelly are back on the Normandy then I would rather hear from them that the squaddies have left messages for me even if they're unimportant. I would like to see them both utilized for more than just plot points. And if that means having the responsibility of being mesengers then I would be alright with that.

1) & 2) I agree with you 100%.

3) I would like to see romance treated the way the Warden & Morrigan did it in DA:O. With all of the additions you mentioned, I would still like to see additional dialogue when they're off the ship. If that means sharing a kiss on Omega then so be it. I just feel that if it's a relationship then it's not just on the ship. Do they embarass one another? Are they more comfortable with having restrictions placed on them? I'm not talking about holding hands during battle but it would be nice to be able to talk to your LI at any time away from the ship. Hell, I could have dinner with Kelly but not any other LI? That wasn't realistic. Even the additional intimate moments I agree with you. It's not as if this is some kind of tasteless suggestion but if ME3 is going for realism then it should have all bases covered. The game is rated M and that doesn't mean that they take the "Leisure Suit Larry" road but there's so many more options that can be given to the player to make having a relationship feel more real and stable.

Even if that means sharing an argument or disagreeing about a mission. That would be awesome. Anyway that's my two pence. 

Modifié par shadowreflexion, 30 juin 2011 - 07:27 .