413 réponses à ce sujet

[knightnblu]

The pre-planned sacrifice of entire species before battle is joined is something that I will not engage in. My likes or dislikes and the needs of humanity do not justify the genocide of an entire species. If that were so, then who could blame the Reapers for their actions? Are they not pursuing the needs of their race?

By intentionally targeting specific races for extinction you are heading down a very slippery slope. It is one that man has travelled many times before and one that always leads to suffering. You cannot apply cold equations or the principles of economics to life because when life is looked at in those terms you cease to be human. That is the dynamic that is explored between Shepard and Cerberus in Overlord.

Nietzsche said that those who hunt monsters should take care that they themselves do not become that which they hunt. This is because when you stare into the abyss, the abyss also looks back into you and pray that it does not find purchase there, else you will begin the transition and not even know it has happened. Some encourage this change as necessary, but that is a folly.

If one loses their humanity then what good is the survival of our species? Will we not pass these new values on to our children? Would we really eschew the horrible things we had to do in the name of survival or look for affirmation from future generations that what was done was necessary despite the death of our collective soul? Or would we couch it so that it comes out in favor of such incalculable harshness in order to salve our conscience?

In the end, the species we may have to sacrifice is our own if we are to have a realistic chance of saving all. If we are unwilling to sacrifice ourselves, then why should the galaxy sacrifice for us? Earth may fall and billions would die, but if that was the only way to have a real chance of defeating the Reapers, could you do it?

The strength of man lies not in his arm, but in his intellect and will. When men are combined into teams, synergy is developed. How much more can we expect from a united galaxy? I don't believe that the galaxy failed to survive so many harvestings because it lacked the military strength to defeat the Reapers, it lacked the unity and will to do so and the Reapers took them apart one after the other. Unity can not be achieved if we are pre-determining the extinct races before the first shot of that engagement is fired. It is Shepard's responsibility to fight for them all and to save as many as he can. An idealist's viewpoint? Certainly, but I believe that it is the right one.

In order to achieve that unity, we need to fight for something larger than ourselves or our species. Something that transcends our racial identities and individual egos and that something is an ideal. An intellectual truth that transcends species and binds them together for a common purpose. Once the cement of that idea has been created and unity forged, then the true military strength of the galaxy can be assessed. That is what I see in ME3. A chance to create something greater than has ever existed before and a real chance at defeating the Reapers once and for all.

[Sheppard-Commander]

Mesina2 wrote...

By losing 99.9% of their population, homeworld and most of their fleet and army, humanity would prosper?!

I love made up percentages. Did you know that 99.9% of Humans arent as lazy or fatalist as to give up on the independence of our species if any hope remains, unlike yourself?

I cant provide you with any more clear cut evidence than I already have. I would suggest you re-read my example of the American colonies again, as its clear it didnt stick the first time you read it.

What does our homeworld really matter in this? We have several other worlds capable of hosting human life, that and a sustainable population is literally all thats needed to repopulate a race. You disagree with facts because they dont fit your narrow view/opinion of what would happen. Thats fine, but it doesnt change what is fact. Rebuilding our race would still be entirely within the sphere of possible.

Mesina2 wrote...
Alliance is part of the Council and it would be their duty to protect them when in need.
They didn't do anything illegal like Quarians with Geth to leave them.
There's
no excuse for them to do it and any future race would say f*ck you to
Council for abandoning race for no reason but not liking them.


Also humans would sacrifice their own homeworld, I think they would change their minds on humanity after that.

...What? This makes no sense in regards to the section of my reply that you where responding to...I'm not even sure how to reply, this just flat out doesnt make sense. O.o

Mesina2 wrote...
I'm not.

Yes, you are. You argue that Humanity couldnt rebuild, when it certainly could.

[Someone With Mass]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...
If you think about it, Mass Effect, in its very simplest form, is about humanity proving itself a worthy part of the greater galactic community and a trusted/respected citizen of the galaxy. This was literally the first bit of exposition we heard at the beginning of the trilogy. So, in a way, you can think of humanity as pivotal and therefore special. I just hope it isn't taken to ridiculous lengths is all.

Well, they're failing in a spectacular way at it, because all they did was bumrush the galactic community and demanded a high seat without every doing anything of importance until like thirty years later at the battle of the Citadel.

They didn't contribute with anything before that, and that's what I really don't like. They're trying to get so much without ever proving themselves worthy of it.

And that's not exactly a member I would like to have in a community like the Citadel that demands everything and isn't giving anything in return.

[JamieCOTC]

TheMakoMaster wrote...

Save the Pyjaks 

Rise of the Planet of the Pyjaks ... it's coming.  Goddamn us all to hell.

[CroGamer002]

Sheppard-Commander wrote...

I love made up percentages. Did you know that 99.9% of Humans arent as lazy or fatalist as to give up on the independence of our species if any hope remains, unlike yourself?

I'd like to correct myself from 99.9% to just 99%.

And no, I wouldn't give up my independence, but Alliance would.

I cant provide you with any more clear cut evidence than I already have. I would suggest you re-read my example of the American colonies again, as its clear it didnt stick the first time you read it.

That's very diffrent thing.

What does our homeworld really matter in this? We have several other worlds capable of hosting human life, that and a sustainable population is literally all thats needed to repopulate a race. You disagree with facts because they dont fit your narrow view/opinion of what would happen. Thats fine, but it doesnt change what is fact. Rebuilding our race would still be entirely within the sphere of possible.

Jesus Christ, another guy with "Earth is not important".

If you can't see the obvious, I'll stop arguing with you.

...What? This makes no sense in regards to the section of my reply that you where responding to...I'm not even sure how to reply, this just flat out doesnt make sense. O.o

I was saying that Council wouldn't abandon Allaince once Earth is destroyed, which you claim they qwoul

Yes, you are. You argue that Humanity couldnt rebuild, when it certainly could.

11 490 225 106 CASUALTIES! THAT'S 99% OF HUMANITY!

They'll need centuries, if not over 1000s of years to rebuild themselves!

And I'm not counting any colony that can be annihilated by Reaper.

[Destroy Raiden_]

I think the Hanar are expendable.

[Z.Shepard]

neither. but if it's inevitable i'd sacrifice the least importants.

1. vorcha
2. drell
3. volus
4. geth
5. quarian
6. elcor
7. hanar
8. krogan
9. salarian
10. asari
11. human
12. turian

[Bnol]

Arcian wrote...
After being pushed and bullied for nearly 40 years, how can you expect the Citadel Council to just sit and wait for humanity to rebuild their navy and draft new soldiers? Even so, what is a few hundred thousand soldiers against potential armies of billions among the asari and salarians, or the turian hierarchy where every single citizen is a trained combatant?

So you think humans will be the only population devastated by the Reaper fleet?  That is highly unlikely.  Every race will have losses to their military personnel, infrastructure, and fleets.  Thus everyone will be in a weaker state at the end of the war against the Reapers.  It won't be a trillion aliens against a  few million humans.  The fact is we have always been up against superior numbers and firepower, but it is all about whether or not it is worth it to the Council to go to war and after a war with the Reapers it won't be.  So we will have the opportunity to rebuild, whether it is on earth or on the many colonies we have.

[The Baconer]

Batarians and Vorcha. Completely worthless.

Asari kind of ****** me off, but I don't know if I'd go as far as to call them expendable.

[FERMi27]

I'd rather hit an asari.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Arrow70 wrote...

Only the space cows and gas bags are worth saving!

I like this human he understands!

[CroGamer002]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Arrow70 wrote...

Only the space cows and gas bags are worth saving!

I like this human he understands!

Also those crabs on Virmire!

[FERMi27]

You forgot the giant beattles.

[lovgreno]

HTTP 404 wrote...

Arcian is right, humans will no longer have as much weight in the galaxy with earth and its population gone.

Yep, but it's still better than extinction. Better to live like quarians (wich actualy doesn't seem too bad) than to be dead. But the council races will likely survive more unscarred as they (unlike the humans) have most of their population and infrastructure in their colonies. So good relations to them will surely make things easier for surviving humans. Not that they will be in good shape either, in fact they will probably be busy holding back the expanding krogan empire.

[Sheppard-Commander]

[quote]Mesina2 wrote...

I'd like to correct myself from 99.9% to just 99%.

And no, I wouldn't give up my independence, but Alliance would.[/quote]

The Alliance could disintegrate all together and it wouldnt have any impact on what you are arguing. Many Human colonies in the traverse already survive without direct Alliance military support.

[quote]Mesina2 wrote...

That's very diffrent thing.
[/quote]

It's not, and unless you lack the higher brain functions required for rational thinking they are obviously equatable. A (relatively) small population on a foreign planet (in this case, continent which in the 1700s is easily relatable to colony worlds of ME) not only did the USA expand and grow into one of the largest nations on Earth, but it now boasts the uncontested most powerful military on the planet. For the relatively small timeline of only 200+ years, thats a very long way to come.

You, on the other hand...suggest that given entire planets with sizable human populations, humanity would still be "doomed" to second class citizens like the Quarians or Drell. I agree thats a possible short term outcome, but rebuilding the species can easily be done in a few centuries in this scenario.

[quote]Mesina2 wrote...
Jesus Christ, another guy with "Earth is not important".

If you can't see the obvious, I'll stop arguing with you.[/quote]

You are putting words in my mouth (err...fingers?) I never said Earth wasnt important. I'm arguing that Earth isnt positively necessary for the advancement of our species, which is simple fact. All the tools needed to repopulate our race would be there, yet for some magical reason you seem to think our entire species would resign ourselves to being second class citizens and client races.

[quote]Mesina2 wrote...I was saying that Council wouldn't abandon Allaince once Earth is destroyed, which you claim they qwoul[/quote]

Again, I never said anything of the sort. But that, is at best conjecture. The Council has abandoned Humanity many times already.

[quote]Mesina2 wrote... 11 490 225 106 CASUALTIES! THAT'S 99% OF HUMANITY!

They'll need centuries, if not over 1000s of years to rebuild themselves!

And I'm not counting any colony that can be annihilated by Reaper.[quote]

Sigh...since you seem to lack the ability to even determine WHY thats a made up figure, I'll attempt to enlighten you. Do you have ANY idea even approximately how many humans are living off of Earth? No. You dont. There for you have no way to determine what % of Humanity would be destroyed if Earth where destroyed. Is it likely to be most of humanity? Yes. Does that mean there wouldnt be a viable population left to repopulate the race quickly? Not at all. Governments can provide incentives for families to produce lots of offspring, if you continue this trend for several centuries all of the sudden the population of your world has expanded exponentially. I never stated Humanity would spring back up into the billions over night, thats absurd.

I'm not biting on the Reaper garbage. All of the sudden you want to change the parameters of the discussion we where having, because like I said, you where wrong.

[CroGamer002]

lovgreno wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

Arcian is right, humans will no longer have as much weight in the galaxy with earth and its population gone.

Yep, but it's still better than extinction. Better to live like quarians (wich actualy doesn't seem too bad) than to be dead. But the council races will likely survive more unscarred as they (unlike the humans) have most of their population and infrastructure in their colonies. So good relations to them will surely make things easier for surviving humans. Not that they will be in good shape either, in fact they will probably be busy holding back the expanding krogan empire.

With Wrex in charge, I doubt it.

And that's only if Genophage cure is unavoidable.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

FERMi27 wrote...

You forgot the giant beattles.

The shifty looking cow would DESTROY those goddamned beatles.

[The Baconer]

knightnblu wrote...
snip

Very beautifully put. But, honestly. Batarians.

[Ophir147]

Here's the nitty gritty

Fate of entire races will rest upon your choices?

Metagaming = Everyone survives (look what happened to the suicide mission)

If you have to choose a race to be destroyed to save the other then

Human > Salarian > Turian > Asari > Krogan > Drell > Quarian > The rest would be picking names out of a hat

[CroGamer002]

@Sheppard-Commander I'm done with you.

And yes, I do know human population on Earth.
Check Earth description in either ME1 or ME2.

[mauro2222]

knightnblu wrote...

The pre-planned sacrifice of entire species before battle is joined is something that I will not engage in. My likes or dislikes and the needs of humanity do not justify the genocide of an entire species. If that were so, then who could blame the Reapers for their actions? Are they not pursuing the needs of their race?

By intentionally targeting specific races for extinction you are heading down a very slippery slope. It is one that man has travelled many times before and one that always leads to suffering. You cannot apply cold equations or the principles of economics to life because when life is looked at in those terms you cease to be human. That is the dynamic that is explored between Shepard and Cerberus in Overlord.

Nietzsche said that those who hunt monsters should take care that they themselves do not become that which they hunt. This is because when you stare into the abyss, the abyss also looks back into you and pray that it does not find purchase there, else you will begin the transition and not even know it has happened. Some encourage this change as necessary, but that is a folly.

If one loses their humanity then what good is the survival of our species? Will we not pass these new values on to our children? Would we really eschew the horrible things we had to do in the name of survival or look for affirmation from future generations that what was done was necessary despite the death of our collective soul? Or would we couch it so that it comes out in favor of such incalculable harshness in order to salve our conscience?

In the end, the species we may have to sacrifice is our own if we are to have a realistic chance of saving all. If we are unwilling to sacrifice ourselves, then why should the galaxy sacrifice for us? Earth may fall and billions would die, but if that was the only way to have a real chance of defeating the Reapers, could you do it?

The strength of man lies not in his arm, but in his intellect and will. When men are combined into teams, synergy is developed. How much more can we expect from a united galaxy? I don't believe that the galaxy failed to survive so many harvestings because it lacked the military strength to defeat the Reapers, it lacked the unity and will to do so and the Reapers took them apart one after the other. Unity can not be achieved if we are pre-determining the extinct races before the first shot of that engagement is fired. It is Shepard's responsibility to fight for them all and to save as many as he can. An idealist's viewpoint? Certainly, but I believe that it is the right one.

In order to achieve that unity, we need to fight for something larger than ourselves or our species. Something that transcends our racial identities and individual egos and that something is an ideal. An intellectual truth that transcends species and binds them together for a common purpose. Once the cement of that idea has been created and unity forged, then the true military strength of the galaxy can be assessed. That is what I see in ME3. A chance to create something greater than has ever existed before and a real chance at defeating the Reapers once and for all.

Are you god? I really hope so xD
You make me cry [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/sad.png[/smilie]
I love you, for what you wrote in here. But I hate you because you mentioned Nietzche, god, I learned to hate that guy, all because my philosophie professor, he spits all over the place trying to pronounce that name xD

Modifié par mauro2222, 30 juin 2011 - 07:53 .

[SandTrout]

While I don't relish the thought of condemning a species to extinctions, I have to look after my own before I can look after anyone else.

Every other species will burn before I allow humanity to fall, if necessary. People can talk about 'Unity' and 'Transcendence' through sacrifice all they want, but if our species is extinct, then we will not be united or transcended. We will be dead.

Reality has a knack for reminding people that ideals and rhetoric are no match for the cold, hard facts of the situation. People adapt to Reality; Reality does not bend to People.

[lovgreno]

The Baconer wrote...

knightnblu wrote...
snip

Very beautifully put. But, honestly. Batarians.

I agree, solid argumantation and logic there Knightblu.

Batarians aren't too bad. Unless you are colonist Shepard.

[Sheppard-Commander]

Mesina2 wrote...

@Sheppard-Commander I'm done with you.

And yes, I do know human population on Earth.
Check Earth description in either ME1 or ME2.

Again you mis-read what I said. You fail to understand even the most basic and mundane of details, it doesnt surprise me that you give up now, when you so obviously failed horribly to back up your nonsensical arguements.

But I'll take your giving up as a concession that I was right and you where wrong... thats plenty for me.

SandTrout wrote...

While I don't relish the thought of
condemning a species to extinctions, I have to look after my own before I
can look after anyone else.

Every other species will burn before
I allow humanity to fall, if necessary. People can talk about 'Unity'
and 'Transcendence' through sacrifice all they want, but if our species
is extinct, then we will not be united or transcended. We will be dead.

Reality
has a knack for reminding people that ideals and rhetoric are no match
for the cold, hard facts of the situation. People adapt to Reality;
Reality does not bend to People.

Agreed. It's only natural after all to put your own needs over those of others, even if the "others" happen to be people you like or are technically your allies.

[PPF65]

I will sacrifice no one. Every race will survive, just to rub the reapers big fat nose... err... face?... some sensory appendage in it.