413 réponses à ce sujet

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The geth did not peruse the quarians because exterminating them was a means to an end, not their end goal. But just because they wiped out the quarians to win the war instead of going to war to wipe out the quarians, doesn't really change the end result.

[Bnol]

DoNotIngest wrote...

Bnol wrote...

Except the Quarians started the war for the express purpose of destroying the Geth as a sentient entity.  The geth defended themselves like one would expected from any self-award entity.  The geth did not pursue the Quarians after they fled. 

Ah, yes. Because the Quarians were still fighting when they went from billions to 700 million, and 500 million, then 200 million, 100 million, 50 million... While the Geth most likely had billions of platforms.


Say Quarians had a population similar to Humans (though, being much more advanced, it was probably much, much larger). 17 billion, since 17 is such an easily relatable number. Now, 17 million is 0.1% of 17 billion.



It's completely self-defense to wipe out 999/1000 of your enemy, to kill literrally 99.9% of them until the scarce remainders make it out of your genocide. Peace. Right. I don't have the facts, so this is an educated guess, but I daresay the ****s didn't wipe out 99.9% of the Jews, and that was still considered near-complete genocide.

We don't know the number of quarians that were alive or were killed, so we can't know the percentage of the population.  We also don't have information on how the war really played out in terms of how long the Quarians fought, if the Geth killed more as they fled, etc..  We don't know if either side attempted any sort of diplomacy.

I mean if we are going to talk about WW2, Hitler's express goals were the extermination of Jews, the Quarians express goals were the extermination of the Geth, we don't know what the Geth's express goals were at the time.  Nor do we know if the Geth consciousness was advanced enough to even identify extermination/genocide.  Further, the Jews did not have the goal of the erradication of the German population, when you make that comparison.  The Geth became aware and then were instantly attacked, did they have the ability to truely understand the actions and the amount of damage they caused. 

[ERJAK1]

SCREW BATARIANS!

Seriously I didn't even feel the tiniest bit guilty wiping them out in Arrival. Screw 'em.

[ShadowLordXXX]

Would it be declaring war on the internet to turn it off? Would it be war to destroy every macintosh operating system? To destroy faulty mechs? Because as far as the Quarians knew/believed the Geth were still VIs at the time that they attempted to get rid of them. Approaching sentience yes, but they did not think they were truly sentient. And seeing as the Quarians created the Geth for a workforce, similar to what we use current machines for, they had a vested interest in that not happening.

Modifié par ShadowLordXXX, 30 juin 2011 - 09:24 .

[Bnol]

ShadowLordXXX wrote...

Arcian wrote...

Genocide and war are two very different things. The quarians shot first, so the geth retaliation, no matter how harsh, was fair game.

So according to you it would be justifiable for America to have nuked the entirety of Japan after they surrendered. Or for any country to slaughter noncombatants without mercy. Seriously?

Lets face it, war will have civillian casualties, but the intentional slaughter of civillians IS genocide. The Geth slaughtered COUNTLESS Quarians, men, women, children, the elderly. Surely you don't believe Quarian babies were attacking the Geth as well?

Whether or not the Quarians were justified or not in their initial attack is irrelevant as to the clear fact that the Geth's response was clearly genocide in every way.

Except that every Quarian was a threat to the Geth, because any man/woman/child could delete programs, could pull the plug on the servers and hubs.  With significant enough losses of those hubs/servers the Geth would lose self-awarness and become extinct.  This is not the same as a traditional military struggle.

Modifié par Bnol, 30 juin 2011 - 09:27 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I'd throw the Trolls of BSN at the Reapers.

[wizardryforever]

DoNotIngest wrote...

Bnol wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Bnol wrote...
Except the Quarians started the war for the express purpose of destroying the Geth as a sentient entity.  The geth defended themselves like one would expected from any self-award entity.  The geth did not pursue the Quarians after they fled. 

That's like saying: I nuked the northern hemisphere in self-defense because some guy tried to kill me.

How is that even the same.  The geth became self-aware because of their networking.  The only way to eliminate this would be to eliminate a huge amount of geth, not just one program (ala your analogy).  The Quarian government declared an immediate termination of all Geth programs (analogous to genocide) and they didn't know how far the Geth progressed and how integrated they were when they started the Morning War. The Geth learned what they were doing and retaliated.   We don't even know if either side attempted any diplomacy.  In the end, the Quarians fled their planets and the Geth did not pursue. 

See my above post. 1 in 1000 (And let's face it, there were probably a lot more than 17 billion Quarians) is not "fleeing their planets". 1 in 1000 is what escape extermination. There's a reason it's described as a mishmash of damaged and assorted ships that originally comprised the fleet; It was no organized retreat, it was "RUN FOR YOUR LIIIIIVES!"

Okay, so what exactly was stopping the Geth from completing their "genocide," hmm?  Nothing that I can see.  It seems more like they simply let the Quarians go.  The Geth could have easily hunted them all down and destroyed them in the 300 years since the initial war.  Given that the Quarians still haven't given up wanting to destroy the Geth, it seems quite likely that they kept fighting until they had no choice but to flee.  The Geth, realizing that the Migrant Fleet was not a threat, let them go.  If it was genocide they were after, they would not have done that.

[TheMakoMaster]

^^

yes!

Edit:  bah!  further up to the troll comment

Modifié par TheMakoMaster, 30 juin 2011 - 09:28 .

[DoNotIngest]

Bnol wrote...

DoNotIngest wrote...

Bnol wrote...

Except the Quarians started the war for the express purpose of destroying the Geth as a sentient entity.  The geth defended themselves like one would expected from any self-award entity.  The geth did not pursue the Quarians after they fled. 

Ah, yes. Because the Quarians were still fighting when they went from billions to 700 million, and 500 million, then 200 million, 100 million, 50 million... While the Geth most likely had billions of platforms.


Say Quarians had a population similar to Humans (though, being much more advanced, it was probably much, much larger). 17 billion, since 17 is such an easily relatable number. Now, 17 million is 0.1% of 17 billion.



It's completely self-defense to wipe out 999/1000 of your enemy, to kill literrally 99.9% of them until the scarce remainders make it out of your genocide. Peace. Right. I don't have the facts, so this is an educated guess, but I daresay the ****s didn't wipe out 99.9% of the Jews, and that was still considered near-complete genocide.

We don't know the number of quarians that were alive or were killed, so we can't know the percentage of the population.  We also don't have information on how the war really played out in terms of how long the Quarians fought, if the Geth killed more as they fled, etc..  We don't know if either side attempted any sort of diplomacy.

I mean if we are going to talk about WW2, Hitler's express goals were the extermination of Jews, the Quarians express goals were the extermination of the Geth, we don't know what the Geth's express goals were at the time.  Nor do we know if the Geth consciousness was advanced enough to even identify extermination/genocide.  Further, the Jews did not have the goal of the erradication of the German population, when you make that comparison.  The Geth became aware and then were instantly attacked, did they have the ability to truely understand the actions and the amount of damage they caused. 

Stating that the Geth couldn't comprehend that they were murdering every last one of their creators just lends credence to the Quarian's panicked solution. They were created to do dangerous & undesirable tasks to preserve Quarian life and let them flourish to their full potential. They started showing signs of becoming sentient, which is a major cause for alarm for multiple reasons. First, if the Council ever found out, it would NOT turn out well for anybody. Second, the Quarians realized that the Geth were certainly going to rebel against their creators, demanding the same rights, etc. Pretty easy to see what a constantly-growing, ever-smarter Geth collective and military force would do with those useful little Quarians. I have no qualms with not wanting to be made the tool of a machine.

Wiping them out then VS mass death in future? What were the alternatives? What kind of peace could there be when the Quarians couldn't satisfy the demands of billions of tools-turned-"people"? Better to end them before they comprehend that they exist and bare the burden of guilt than let what shouldn't ever have been wreck havec on the Galaxy.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Destroying geth is obviously not as simple as pressing a button. Once the war had started, quarian noncombatants were no threat to them. Even the soldiers might not have been as much of a threat as you'd expect. The Codex said that the geth platforms showed no survival instincts because the programs inside were backed up.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 30 juin 2011 - 09:45 .

[DoNotIngest]

Best solution period, Grand Admiral.



...



Pweez don't give me to the Reapers, you know I troll for pure, unanimous comedic relief, right? I'm a good troll!  

wizardryforever wrote...

DoNotIngest wrote...

Bnol wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Bnol wrote...
Except the Quarians started the war for the express purpose of destroying the Geth as a sentient entity.  The geth defended themselves like one would expected from any self-award entity.  The geth did not pursue the Quarians after they fled. 

That's like saying: I nuked the northern hemisphere in self-defense because some guy tried to kill me.

How is that even the same.  The geth became self-aware because of their networking.  The only way to eliminate this would be to eliminate a huge amount of geth, not just one program (ala your analogy).  The Quarian government declared an immediate termination of all Geth programs (analogous to genocide) and they didn't know how far the Geth progressed and how integrated they were when they started the Morning War. The Geth learned what they were doing and retaliated.   We don't even know if either side attempted any diplomacy.  In the end, the Quarians fled their planets and the Geth did not pursue. 

See my above post. 1 in 1000 (And let's face it, there were probably a lot more than 17 billion Quarians) is not "fleeing their planets". 1 in 1000 is what escape extermination. There's a reason it's described as a mishmash of damaged and assorted ships that originally comprised the fleet; It was no organized retreat, it was "RUN FOR YOUR LIIIIIVES!"

Okay, so what exactly was stopping the Geth from completing their "genocide," hmm?  Nothing that I can see.  It seems more like they simply let the Quarians go.  The Geth could have easily hunted them all down and destroyed them in the 300 years since the initial war.  Given that the Quarians still haven't given up wanting to destroy the Geth, it seems quite likely that they kept fighting until they had no choice but to flee.  The Geth, realizing that the Migrant Fleet was not a threat, let them go.  If it was genocide they were after, they would not have done that.

What was stopping the Geth, eh? You realize the Geth weren't created to be an army, right? They were created to be a workforce. Compare them to the Reapers; Reapers take centuries to wipe out civilizations, and they number in the thousands, and are much more advanced than their prey. I'm amazed the Geth were able to hunt down as many Quarians as they managed.


And the Council was preventing them from completing their Genocide. Note that the survivors fled Quarian space and now keep constantly on the move in Council space. Now, the Geth aren't dumb enough to try to take on every organic in the Galaxy. Not yet (I'm sure they'll eventually see organics as a threat to synthetics, and await their numbers to become superior...).

[Jedi Master of Orion]

wizardryforever wrote...

Okay, so what exactly was stopping the Geth from completing their "genocide," hmm?  Nothing that I can see.  It seems more like they simply let the Quarians go.  The Geth could have easily hunted them all down and destroyed them in the 300 years since the initial war.  Given that the Quarians still haven't given up wanting to destroy the Geth, it seems quite likely that they kept fighting until they had no choice but to flee.  The Geth, realizing that the Migrant Fleet was not a threat, let them go.  If it was genocide they were after, they would not have done that.

As I've said, it was because genocide wasn't their objective, it was the method they used to achive that objective, namely defeating the quarians in the Morning War. But it deosn't make any difference. If you wipe out a group of people because you specfically want them dead, or if you wipe them out because you wanted their land for yourself the moral differences between the 2 are farily trivial.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 30 juin 2011 - 09:34 .

[Arrow70]

I don't see race,.
Except the damn Volus. Stuck up little...

Modifié par Arrow70, 30 juin 2011 - 09:41 .

[DoNotIngest]

@Grand Admiral: I have nothing better to do, and it's an interesting subject. Hell, no one's forcing you to stay in the thread. Maybe I'll get my opinion accepted! WOOT! Dominating the minds of humans one internet debate at a time!

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

DoNotIngest wrote...

@Grand Admiral: I have nothing better to do, and it's an interesting subject. Hell, no one's forcing you to stay in the thread. Maybe I'll get my opinion accepted! WOOT! Dominating the minds of humans one internet debate at a time!

The thread is about "expendable races" not the Geth/Quarian conflict.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That is true. The Geth-Quarian conflict pops up in topics more often than anything except maybe the Paragon-Renegade argument, so it has a tendency to either get out of hand or derail other topics.

[wizardryforever]

DoNotIngest wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Okay, so what exactly was stopping the Geth from completing their "genocide," hmm?  Nothing that I can see.  It seems more like they simply let the Quarians go.  The Geth could have easily hunted them all down and destroyed them in the 300 years since the initial war.  Given that the Quarians still haven't given up wanting to destroy the Geth, it seems quite likely that they kept fighting until they had no choice but to flee.  The Geth, realizing that the Migrant Fleet was not a threat, let them go.  If it was genocide they were after, they would not have done that.

What was stopping the Geth, eh? You realize the Geth weren't created to be an army, right? They were created to be a workforce. Compare them to the Reapers; Reapers take centuries to wipe out civilizations, and they number in the thousands, and are much more advanced than their prey. I'm amazed the Geth were able to hunt down as many Quarians as they managed.


And the Council was preventing them from completing their Genocide. Note that the survivors fled Quarian space and now keep constantly on the move in Council space. Now, the Geth aren't dumb enough to try to take on every organic in the Galaxy. Not yet (I'm sure they'll eventually see organics as a threat to synthetics, and await their numbers to become superior...).

The Migrant Fleet is all that is left of the Quarian people.  They have no more colonies, and their homeworld was lost.  The Migrant Fleet is actually pretty easy to find most of the time.  Just watch the extranet for news updates about the fleet arriving in an inhabited system.  Dispatch a recon team to surveil the area, and watch where they go.  Amass a fleet behind the veil and arrange to intercept the Quarians in an uncharted system.  Destroy them with overwhelming numbers (which were enough to wipe out all of the defenses and take the homeworld mind), and done.  All Quarians dead, "genocide" complete.  Why don't they do that again?

The Council cared so much about the Quarians' plight that they did absolutely nothing.  They even rescinded the Quarians' membership rights to an embassy on the Citadel.  The Council would step in only if the Geth threatened everyone else.  They wouldn't do a damn thing to help the Quarians.  They view the situation as "they brought this on themselves."

Also, where are you getting this insight into their mindset?  We know very, very little about how the Geth think.  It's just paranoia to assume that they are plotting something.

Wow this is wildly off-topic.  I'd rather go back to discussing which races are "expendable."

[DoNotIngest]

"Expendable Races" should damn well be an oxymoron. The Q/G debate improved it, if anything.

[Mr. Man]

Batarians. I'd kill the terrorists even if I didn't have to. As for everyone else, expendable is a bit harsh, although I would say the Vorcha are completely useless as they are too stupid to do anything worthwhile (thus they could be sent to their deaths). But Humans, Turians, Salarians, Asari, Volus are all very important. And shouldn't be killed off....

[Si-Shen]

Most expendable race ever... humans... of course the way they spread already in the galaxy, its not like letting several hundred million die would cause the extinction of the race.

[Someone With Mass]

Bnol wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Bnol wrote...
Except the Quarians started the war for the express purpose of destroying the Geth as a sentient entity.  The geth defended themselves like one would expected from any self-award entity.  The geth did not pursue the Quarians after they fled. 

That's like saying: I nuked the northern hemisphere in self-defense because some guy tried to kill me.

How is that even the same.  The geth became self-aware because of their networking.  The only way to eliminate this would be to eliminate a huge amount of geth, not just one program (ala your analogy).  The Quarian government declared an immediate termination of all Geth programs (analogous to genocide) and they didn't know how far the Geth progressed and how integrated they were when they started the Morning War. The Geth learned what they were doing and retaliated.   We don't even know if either side attempted any diplomacy. In the end, the Quarians fled their planets and the Geth did not pursue.

The quarians realized they made a mistake and tried to stop it before it escalated even further.

As a result, they were driven from all their worlds, billions of them were killed, and their descendants are still facing a slow death of their entire race because of something they weren't even a part of or had any saying in.

While the geth are just sitting behind the Perseus Veil undisturbed, doing whatever they want, unhindered.

I don't think what the geth did can ever be justified. Self-defense is one thing, but bringing your opponent to the brink of extinction can't be validated in any way. Not unless the enemy is a threat to all sentient life in the galaxy like the Reapers.

[DoNotIngest]

wizardryforever wrote...

DoNotIngest wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Okay, so what exactly was stopping the Geth from completing their "genocide," hmm?  Nothing that I can see.  It seems more like they simply let the Quarians go.  The Geth could have easily hunted them all down and destroyed them in the 300 years since the initial war.  Given that the Quarians still haven't given up wanting to destroy the Geth, it seems quite likely that they kept fighting until they had no choice but to flee.  The Geth, realizing that the Migrant Fleet was not a threat, let them go.  If it was genocide they were after, they would not have done that.

What was stopping the Geth, eh? You realize the Geth weren't created to be an army, right? They were created to be a workforce. Compare them to the Reapers; Reapers take centuries to wipe out civilizations, and they number in the thousands, and are much more advanced than their prey. I'm amazed the Geth were able to hunt down as many Quarians as they managed.


And the Council was preventing them from completing their Genocide. Note that the survivors fled Quarian space and now keep constantly on the move in Council space. Now, the Geth aren't dumb enough to try to take on every organic in the Galaxy. Not yet (I'm sure they'll eventually see organics as a threat to synthetics, and await their numbers to become superior...).

The Migrant Fleet is all that is left of the Quarian people.  They have no more colonies, and their homeworld was lost.  The Migrant Fleet is actually pretty easy to find most of the time.  Just watch the extranet for news updates about the fleet arriving in an inhabited system.  Dispatch a recon team to surveil the area, and watch where they go.  Amass a fleet behind the veil and arrange to intercept the Quarians in an uncharted system.  Destroy them with overwhelming numbers (which were enough to wipe out all of the defenses and take the homeworld mind), and done.  All Quarians dead, "genocide" complete.  Why don't they do that again?

The Council cared so much about the Quarians' plight that they did absolutely nothing.  They even rescinded the Quarians' membership rights to an embassy on the Citadel.  The Council would step in only if the Geth threatened everyone else.  They wouldn't do a damn thing to help the Quarians.  They view the situation as "they brought this on themselves."

Also, where are you getting this insight into their mindset?  We know very, very little about how the Geth think.  It's just paranoia to assume that they are plotting something.

Wow this is wildly off-topic.  I'd rather go back to discussing which races are "expendable."

Paragraph 1: By the time they got to where the Extranet reported they were, they'd have probably moved on. Also, there must be plethora of emergency procedures for just such an event; Quarians are the opposite of idiots.

That being said, I never said that the Geth might want peace *now*. It'd be all well and good if the Geth gave the Quarians back their homeworld & systems in exchange for peace treaties from the organics of the Milky Way. What I'm saying is that while the Quarians may not have made a pretty choice in trying to shut down the Geth, the Geth's crimes certainly outweigh it. Attempted genocide is the lesser evil than 99.9% genocide in my eyes; Is that so nonsensical?

Q/G peace and a vacation home (For obviously post-ME3 is adventurous wrong-righting through the Galaxy with Shep&Friends) for Tali & Shep in ME3!


Paragraph 2: I inferred that the Council would certainly care that the Geth were attacking organics in their space. Those jerks would probably love the Quarians to be wiped out during the issue, but the Geth have a history of organic slaughter; They'd dispatch fleets to drive off any sizable Geth force, guaranteed.


Paragraph 3: Just saying that if the Geth truly are akin to organics, and are thus sentient, they'll be distrustful. Probably best if the organics and Geth keep their distance, even in (hopeful) peace and settling of the Geth/Quarian conflict.


Yeah, it's off-topic, though I still find the idea of "Expendable Races" ridiculous troll-bait. I think my response is friendly enough, does it satisfy you?

[Bnol]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Destroying geth is obviously not as simple as pressing a button. Once the war had started, quarian noncombatants were no threat to them. Even the soldiers might not have been as much of a threat as you'd expect. The Codex said that the geth platforms showed no survival instincts because the programs inside were backed up.

We don't know what the numbers of initial casualties were.  We do know that the geth were simple programs, presumably they were present in all Quarian homes/workplaces, which means  Quarians destroying mosr of their home and work appliances/computers/mobile platforms might have been enough to eliminate Geth sentience.  Were the Geth supposed to just fight the conventional military when the threat was actually everywhere.  The family robot fought back when you tried to kill it.  This likely happened in millions of homes and caused millions of deaths.

IDK it was pretty damn easy to kill millions of Geth in ME2 on the heretic station.

[DoNotIngest]

@Mass

While it may not be forgivable, I'm pretty sure peace & avoidance is in the best interests of the Geth, Quarians & Galaxy as a whole.