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Insight - oh, it's almost the same as chess!


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#1
BelgarathMTH

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Hey, so far today I've beaten Firkraag (took one reload, had him Near Death the 1st time, used what I learned for the 2nd time), and the first big battle against Superhalfling Mages on the western path in the Planar Sphere (no reloads, but extremely close call - Jaheira Stunned, down to 1 hit point, Mazed (thanks, saved her life), Keldorn Stunned, down to about 10 hit points.)

To protect my future, I decided to pause the game after the dust settled, and spent about 10 minutes studying and studying again the transcript of that battle from the actions window.

After learning several things, I just had the insight that this is just like chess. Chess masters get that title by spending hours and hours outside actual playing, studying books, and most importantly, transcripts of every move in, not only games they've lost, but of games that their colleagues have lost and won.

I would never have beaten Firkraag on my own. I only was able to do it because I had studied "book move" advice here on the forums that the key to dragon battles is to get four Lower Resistance cast, and then make the kill with Magic Missiles while the melee fighters, who can only hit with a 20, i.e. very rarely hit at all, distract the beast and keep it occupied.

Also, I had never really taken Improved Invisibility seriously until my failed but almost won run, when all five of my party members were dead and I actually, as a simple straight 12th level sorcerer, stood toe to toe with Firkraag and got two Magic Missiles cast before he finally got me. (heh, "Near Death" for a dragon doesn't mean what it means for other creatures - it means "yeah, you have a glimmer of hope in a thousand years, so what, chump?" Image IPB)

I have also learned from my study of the Superhalfling Mage battle that spells like Chaotic Command and Protection from Magic Energy are not as useful as you would think in high level arcane battles, because Dispel Magic and Remove Magic and Spellstrike and the like are going to be flying back and forth like tennis balls on every round. And, if you are an inquisitor or using Keldorn, you can't use your Inquisitor Dispel without constant fear of removing spell protections -

Which means, you need to prioritize finding items and strategies that minimize or eliminate your dependence on spells for defense. Magic items, scrolls, and potions are your friends; protective spells, not so much.

Also, I have learned that Symbol, Stun is perhaps one of, if not the, most powerful spell in the game. The only reliable defense is to have a cleric of your own with the spell and to get it cast before the enemy cleric. And since they can do it before you can, there is truly "safety in numbers". The more friends you have on your side, the better.

Except, perhaps, for the solo game masters. But I really think that succeeding solo depends on either an awful lot of reloading, or else intimate knowledge of every map and enemy in the game. Which actually goes to my point about the chess analogy - though I don't really care that much for solo playing myself, I can see that if one has studied to the point that six-member party play and reduced-party member play is boring, even with SCS, many people enjoy the further challenge of going mano-a-mano against the AI and increasing their skills to supercomputer level mastery - the player vs. Deep Blue, so to speak.

Anyway, I thought it was really cool how this game is so good that it is like the ultimate classic for intelligent and discerning gamers, chess. And I have a new appreciation for people who can beat the game solo and no-reload.

It's not something I would do myself; just as I enjoy chess casually, but I don't want to have to think about it too terribly much, then so I enjoy Baldur's Gate casually, but etc., etc.

What a great game. They truly don't make them like this any more.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 30 juin 2011 - 08:45 .


#2
corey_russell

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In order to do no-reload successfully, it does indeed require intimate knowledge of the game - items, spells, enemy characteristics, etc. For BG, you don't necessarily have to study it, per se, but just beat the game number of times. Then you will have learned it enough to reasonably attempt a no-reload.

Solo no-reload requires even more intimate knowledge of the game, because you have to compensate for your class's weakness with tactics, potions, scrolls, equipment, etc.

At it's heart, chess is a strategy game. And so is BG, though there is some luck involved.

#3
BelgarathMTH

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@Corey, indeed, that's why a solo-master I was talking to, Alesia-BH, shared with me that she does not consider her game a truly master-level game unless she has avoided having to make a saving throw for the entire trilogy. No saves, ever. Therefore, absolute freedom from luck having anything to do with victory. So impressive! I bow before her!

#4
corey_russell

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Actually though, luck MAY have something to do with her victory because she has almost certainly cast some spells at enemies that made/didn't make their saving throws! Also, Thac0 by it's very nature is "luck" though of course you can stack the luck to work your way.

All I am saying is there is definite luck/randomness in anyone's BG game, which doesn't detract from someone doing the game without having to make a save.

#5
Alesia_BH

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I think the analogy is appropriate in some ways.

Just a quick comment on your remark about defensive spells use. Defensive spells can be very reliable for arcane classes In vanilla, it's quite simple to protect yourself from debuffing spells. SI:A, SI:D and II will shut them down. II will stop targeted debuffing spells, SI:D will keep II up, and SI:A will foil dispel/remove. I you're, paranoid you can also use a Globe or SI:C to eliminate the possible Glitterdust threat.

In SCS it is a teensy bit more difficult since Spell Protection removers target through II, but you can put up a Spell Shield, use a Globe, and also erect higher level spell defenses atop your Spell Immunties.

Anyhoo. It can be done.


Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 30 juin 2011 - 09:02 .


#6
Alesia_BH

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corey_russell wrote...

Actually though, luck MAY have something to do with her victory because she has almost certainly cast some spells at enemies that made/didn't make their saving throws! Also, Thac0 by it's very nature is "luck" though of course you can stack the luck to work your way.


I tend to avoid save or else stuff preceisly because I can't know what the result will be. But, of course: there is a stochastic element in all runs. Luck is a fine ally- if it's on your side. It's a most fickle and undependable one though. It's best to rely on it as little as possible.


Best,

A.

#7
BelgarathMTH

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Wow, thanks, A. I hadn't really thought about incorporating Spell Immunity into my strategies since it has a short duration and you need multiple castings to get protected from enough schools.

Let's see, Abjuration and Divination - both of those would counter anything an inquisitor could do or any form of Dispel, right? Isn't Imprisonment also countered by Abjuration? And then, Conjuration:Summoning against the Symbol, Stun, though that would only be foolproof together with Abjuration, right?

Wow, learning from a chessmaster, cool. Thanks, A.

EDIT: BTW, you taught me a new word. "stochastic". I bet chaos theorists throw that one around. Awesome! If you know that one, then you are reinforcing my point that BG is for intelligent, discerning gamers. Image IPB

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 30 juin 2011 - 09:13 .


#8
Alesia_BH

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BelgarathMTH wrote...

Wow, thanks, A. I hadn't really thought about incorporating Spell Immunity into my strategies since it has a short duration and you need multiple castings to get protected from enough schools.


When I play arcane characters, I consider Spell Immunity to be my most important spell (when I soloed a Transmuter I missed it terribly). It's powerful, elegant, and flexible. You may want to consider working it in.

Let's see, Abjuration and Divination - both of those would counter anything an inquisitor could do or any form of Dispel, right?


Together they would, yes. SI:D would stop True Sights. SI:A would stop Dispel.

And if you are Improved Invisible at the same time, you wouldn't need to work about Breach, Pierce Magic, and the like either- at least not in vanilla.

The rare Breach special abilities that target through II can be caught with a Spell Shield (in vanilla).

Isn't Imprisonment also countered by Abjuration?

Yup.

And then, Conjuration:Summoning against the Symbol, Stun, though that would only be foolproof together with Abjuration, right?

It depends on what the threat is of course. I you are worried about Remove Magic-> Symbol: Stun then SI:A+SI:C would work. But you'd still be vulnerable to Targeted Protection Removers-> Symbol: Stun. You'd need SI:D+II layered in to stop that approach.

Wow, learning from a chessmaster, cool. Thanks, A.


This isn't something I came up with- it's a classic anti-debuff strategy. It's also the main reason many tactical mods tweak either Spell Protection Removers (SCS) or SI + Spell Shield (IA). It's widely used. :)

I'm sure there are others who use the SCS variant I mentioned as well.


Best,

A.


Btw. Sorry for getting us off topic!

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 30 juin 2011 - 09:23 .


#9
BelgarathMTH

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Alesia_BH wrote...


Wow, learning from a chessmaster, cool. Thanks, A.

This isn't something I came up with- it's a classic anti-debuff strategy. It's also the main reason many tactical mods tweak either Spell Protection Removers (SCS) or SI + Spell Shield (IA). It's widely used. :)

I'm sure there are others who use the SCS variant I mentioned as well.


Best,

A.


Btw. Sorry for getting us off topic!


Oh, this isn't off-topic at all! I wanted to express my new insight about an analogy to chess, but having done that, the fact that I'm getting attention and advice from actual "chessmasters" inspires me with appreciation, new ideas, and gratitude.

As for mentioning "classic...strategy" and couteously denying credit for using or referring to a "book move", that further reinforces my analogy that you guys are "chessmasters". My respect for the people who post in the no-reload threads, to which I could never relate very well before this insight, has deepened dramatically. :)

#10
corey_russell

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Heh - let me tell you though, when I first attempted no-reloads I had a TON of failures - I just picked myself up and tried again, rremembering how I failed before and of course endeavoring not to fail a no-reload for the same reason twice!

I had to do the same process with BG 2, though fortunately not as much as BG 1 (your saves/HP much worse in BG 1, so much easier to have a run end there. More spells for defense in BG 2 as well)

#11
BelgarathMTH

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corey_russell wrote...

Heh - let me tell you though, when I first attempted no-reloads I had a TON of failures - I just picked myself up and tried again, rremembering how I failed before and of course endeavoring not to fail a no-reload for the same reason twice!

I had to do the same process with BG 2, though fortunately not as much as BG 1 (your saves/HP much worse in BG 1, so much easier to have a run end there. More spells for defense in BG 2 as well)


That could be the story of any chessmaster out there.

Hey, we need BG tournaments, with rank titles and championships and corporate sponsors who give cash prizes! There could be a Bobby Fischer of BG!

The only problem would be that, for example, Corey vs. Alecia for the 2011 World Title couldn't happen with the two of you playing against each other. Maybe it could be both of you separately, but at the same time on different servers, against "Deep Blue", the AI, with a win condition like "game time completed, sudden death" (That is, if both of you finished without dying, win condition would go to shortest calendar game time).

EDIT: Oh, and that would give us very interesting data about the eternal question "who is the best character class?". After enough tournaments, we would have statistical comparative bar graphs showing which character builds had won the most times. That would be totally awesome! Image IPB

FURTHER EDIT: Hmm, there could be a real time limit as well. Eight hours a day only, with forced one hour lunch break, five eight-hour days to win, if real time expires without a Trilogy win, win goes to .... lots of possibilities: maximum experience, maximum xp plus gold in inventory comes to mind.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 30 juin 2011 - 10:42 .


#12
corey_russell

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Hmm well, with that I have seen that would probably be unnecessary. Alesia is much better at ToB than I am, though wouldn't be surprised if we beat BG 1 and BG 2 in the same amount of time.

Also our mod setups are quite different, so a little bit like comparing apples and oranges (example: I see people running IA 6.0 getting +2 rings and they can wear MULTIPLES of them!! I only get one in the entire game on my setup and can only wear one magical +1 armor/saves item per character. They also can create massive weapons that I can't. etc., have extra mods that give additional experience, remove experience caps etc., get huge gold. I saw one person have million gold I could never get that in my setup).

To summarize in order for such a competition to have any meaning, the both of us would have to be running the exact same mods and play with the same restraints (e.g. shadow keeper allowed/disallowed). I hardly meet anyone who has my setup.

#13
Alesia_BH

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I'm not inclined to view any of this as competition. It's all just goofy fun to me...

There are a lot of players who are excellent at doing whatever they choose to do. :)

I've done more SCS solo No Reloading than some (3 in BG1 in the last couple months). But that's just what I've chosen to do.

Saros is wonderful in IA, Corey is wonderful at what he does, and many other people are wonderful at what they do


Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 30 juin 2011 - 10:48 .


#14
BelgarathMTH

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corey_russell wrote...

Hmm well, with that I have seen that would probably be unnecessary. Alesia is much better at ToB than I am, though wouldn't be surprised if we beat BG 1 and BG 2 in the same amount of time.

Also our mod setups are quite different, so a little bit like comparing apples and oranges (example: I see people running IA 6.0 getting +2 rings and they can wear MULTIPLES of them!! I only get one in the entire game on my setup and can only wear one magical +1 armor/saves item per character. They also can create massive weapons that I can't. etc., have extra mods that give additional experience, remove experience caps etc., get huge gold. I saw one person have million gold I could never get that in my setup).

To summarize in order for such a competition to have any meaning, the both of us would have to be running the exact same mods and play with the same restraints (e.g. shadow keeper allowed/disallowed). I hardly meet anyone who has my setup.



Of course, tournaments would have identical install setups for both players. That's the whole point of tournaments. And part of the beauty is that you could have leagues and tournaments using different install conditions.

@Alesia, of course, it's "goofy fun" for me too, but having "goofy fun" has gotten you to a way higher level of skill at it than mine, and we've both "had fun". That's very much how contemporary chess leagues get started, and how the World Chess Federation got started, and how a Bobby Fischer got started, and how every chess-playing kid who gets into increasing his/her rank gets started. It takes a community of fun lovers who decide to get a little more serious about their fun.

Such organization can increase the "goofy fun" for everybody.

Don't they already have organized league play for a lot of video games, especially at yearly expos? So why not add Baldur's Gate and other classics to the rolls? The gamemakers could use that sub-league to collect marketing data about future gamemaking efforts.

For example, they could answer the marketing question, would another attempt at a classic RPG be potentially profitable?

And honestly, wouldn't you at least be tempted if you heard that Bioware or EA was conducting a BG tournament with a cash prize of, say, a hundred-thousand dollars?

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 30 juin 2011 - 10:53 .


#15
corey_russell

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Thanks Alesia. I view it as fun as well. A successful no-reload is so rewarding (feeling wise) for me is why I do it. It's challenging, but not frustrating challenging.

I'm actually a chessmaster in real life, and it feels like I played 5 tournament games, all all accurately and won them, when I successfully complete a no reload. Winning in chess is very rewarding emotionally, because it's all you. Of course the downside is that a string of chess defeats is also a huge downer. I went 1/9 in a tourney and gave up chess for 14 months before I came back.

I once had a no-reload fail at Sarevok - what a roller coaster ride that was, LOL!

#16
corey_russell

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@Belgrath:

As far as I know, there would be only one way you could run a tourney like that fairly. Use a Citrix server and publish Baldur's Gate - this would prevent shadowkeeper use. This would also guarantee everyone is on an identical setup. But there would need to be passwords on the saved games, which BG doesn't have. Also that would be a HUGE saved game list if used by multiple players. (could take you 5 min. just to find your saved game!)

BG is simply "too long" for league play. I think it works great for campaign threads like we have here at this web site however.

#17
BelgarathMTH

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corey_russell wrote...

Thanks Alesia. I view it as fun as well. A successful no-reload is so rewarding (feeling wise) for me is why I do it. It's challenging, but not frustrating challenging.

I'm actually a chessmaster in real life, and it feels like I played 5 tournament games, all all accurately and won them, when I successfully complete a no reload. Winning in chess is very rewarding emotionally, because it's all you. Of course the downside is that a string of chess defeats is also a huge downer. I went 1/9 in a tourney and gave up chess for 14 months before I came back.

I once had a no-reload fail at Sarevok - what a roller coaster ride that was, LOL!



Whoa, Corey! Holy crap, man. An honest-to-god real life chessmaster! I'm honored to have met you, sir. And, incidentally, you just reinforced my initial point. I wonder how many BG no-reloaders are also chess players?

EDIT to the second post: League play would be very carefully monitored. I'm not envisioning people doing this from their homes. Players would have to travel to a supervised expo event.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 30 juin 2011 - 11:05 .


#18
Alesia_BH

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BelgarathMTH wrote...

And honestly, wouldn't you at least be tempted if you heard that Bioware or EA was conducting a BG tournament with a cash prize of, say, a hundred-thousand dollars?


I'm not the competitive type. If I were, I'd structure my life differently and wouldn't be playing video games all day. :P

So no: you'll never see me in a BG tournament...

Saros might be game. I might consider putting money on him...


Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 30 juin 2011 - 11:11 .


#19
BelgarathMTH

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@Alesia, ah, but as long as you choose to "be playing video games all day..." ?

As far as "structuring your life differently", the tournament could be held during the summer so that mothers could attend with their children and/or husbands, and there could be a one-week-of-eight-hour-days time limit on the whole enterprise.

I'm not saying you personally should do it, just that I bet there are players around these forums who would, and hopefully some exectuive somewhere is reading this and might get ideas.

EDIT: The length of the BGT could be countered by the sudden death condition. If the tourney real time ran out with survivors still playing, win condition would go to highest experience plus gold. The extremely unlikely event of a tie could be decided with a PvP arena, which would VERY rarely ever happen.
 
2nd EDIT: Sorry to do another edit, but rereading the entries in my post has made me think of the Star Trek episode, "The Gamesters of Triskellion". One thousand Quatloos on Alesia! ROFL! Image IPB

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 30 juin 2011 - 11:38 .


#20
squiros

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i think that like chess, your opening game is critical. pinning mages, blocking and disabling critical peices are fundamental (stun/entangle/web their hard hitting fighters, insect plague for mages/clerics). developing your own peices (buffing e.g. stoneskin) as you move into mid game ultimately determines what strategies will be open to you. and of course, it's ALL about pawn structure (summons). if your pawn structure is good, you can almost do whatever you want. in bgt, this lets you decide when and what the exchanges will be. this is especially true in scs2 and other ai tweaks, imo.

#21
morbidest2

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Another reason for "studying" the forums is that it can make you think about totally different styles of play from what you normally do. The world seems to be divided into tanks, backstabbers and magic users, but sometimes you see a strategy that jars you out of your usual rut.

#22
Saint of Sinners

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I started learning BG2 properly when I turned on Auto-Pause: Round Ended. That's no joke. When I gunned for the speedrun record for BG2 way, way, way back the past decade with my sorcerer, I had to sit down and read every single thing in the manual. Eventually, I decided to have an intimate knowledge with timing. Granted, I failed that attempt badly because I was a bit of a scaredy-cat when the liches start a-casting their spells and I often make mistakes or forgot which spell to use.

Eventually, I got around to memorizing every darn magic attack and which spells they bring down. I figured out by myself that RRR is the solution for SI:Abjuration, and that Spell Thrust is a cheap way to bring down Spell Shield so Breach can go through. There are a lot of things that happened because I decided to sit down, read the manual, and started counting the rounds away. Much like chess, if you don't discern the timing of every move ("Should I Alekhine or go Gambit?", "Should I move to endgame or should I go for the castle?", etc.), you're bound to lose that move. And, as in BG2, lost moves mean stacking the odds to your opponent's favor.

===

Saros would blow most people out of the competition, and that's not even patronizing. The guy just knows every nook and cranny of the game that, as he says, it poses no challenge to him (please correct me if I misquoted Saros on this one), prompting him to go IA6.0.

It's the personal differences that will eventually determine this, though. Alesia's a stylish player, Saros is aggressive but rarely ever wrong about his tactics, etc.

===

If anyone's interested, we can actually hold a tournament and I can help adjudicate as arbiter but there will be a lot involved. Same installations, checking of game files, consistent video uploads or screencaps, et al.

The way I see it, the one challenge that I can see people doing would have to be:
- BG2: ToB + patch
- Ascension mod only
- Lowest number of rounds from starting the battle with Mel to the Solar appearing.
- classes must be the same for all players. Items should be legally obtained.
- Saves before the Ascension will be reviewed.

This rules will ensure that total mastery of the game is taken into consideration. That's a bit too skill-intensive of a requirement, though.

#23
Alesia_BH

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Saint of Sinners wrote...
I figured out by myself that RRR is the solution for SI:Abjuration, and that Spell Thrust is a cheap way to bring down Spell Shield so Breach can go through.


A couple footnotes on this. Except in IA -where SI:A has been changed-  RRR isn't uniquely helpful against SI:A because targetted Spell Protection removers are an exception to the school immunity. The Abjuration school ones will work against SI:A as well.

I'm guessing SoS knew this and was just using an arbitray example of a targetted protection remover, but I thought I'd mention it so that no one else would be confused. It's easy to get mixed up on this.

Also, SCS players should be aware that Spell Shield doesn't foil Breach with the Consistent Breach component installed. It behaves like the Breaching Wands did in Vanilla in this regard and bypasses Spell Shield.

Again, not a correction- a clarification for other interested parties. :)


Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 01 juillet 2011 - 06:03 .


#24
Saint of Sinners

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Alesia_BH wrote...

Also, SCS players should be aware that Spell Shield doesn't foil Breach with the Consistent Breach component installed. It behaves like the Breaching Wands did in Vanilla in this regard and bypasses Spell Shield.


Does this apply to enemies as well if I did not opt to install it? Because if it does, then this might be the reason my combat protections go down but my Spell Shield stays up. Bummer.

Still, being the safety net that it is, I keep a PfMW on trigger for express purposes.

#25
Alesia_BH

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Saint of Sinners wrote...

Does this apply to enemies as well if I did not opt to install it? Because if it does, then this might be the reason my combat protections go down but my Spell Shield stays up. Bummer.


I'm reluctant to comment on installs I haven't played.

I have Consistent Breach. And in my install, enemy Breaches definitely goes right past Spell Shield. However, Spell Protections stop Breach. So, you can let those play the role that Spell Shield used to.

Spell Shield is now more of a Beholder/Khleben's/Spellstrike specific protection- at least in my install.


Best,

A.