196 réponses à ce sujet

[Vit246]

MinotaurWarrior wrote...

As you said, the Qunari don't respect other cultures. Neither do the Andrastian humans or the Elves. The Qunari want to convert the "ignorant" by war, like the Andrastian humans. The elves probably would go here too if they had any military power. But when they discovered that they couldn't make the humans convert, they offered peace, even though they were doing well in their war effort. When the missionary efforts to the Dales weren't going well (hundreds of years ago, to be fair) things ended up much worse.

What are you talking about? What peace offer or war effort? The Elves have no history or even the slightest inclination of converting humans to worship elven gods, peacefully or forcefully. What military power they had was used for the defense of their second homeland and kicking out unwanted missionaries.

[MinotaurWarrior]

The Qunari made peace with all the Thedasian nations except Tevinter, in the Llomerryn accords.

I never claimed that the elves have waged an offensive war against the humans, Qunari, or dwarves. What I said is that they do not respect other cultures, and that if they were a military power once again, it is likely that they would be aggressive towards other peoples. Consider that in the Dalish elf origin, Tamlen is eager to kill the humans you come across, and Marethari treats this as youthful foolishness, inadvisable because the human nations are so much more powerful.

EDIT: upon re-reading the post you were responding to, I now realize that I was being incredibly unclear, I'm going to go back and edit it now.

Modifié par MinotaurWarrior, 01 juillet 2011 - 11:56 .

[Vit246]

Now that your post is more clear....

I seriously doubt that the elves with significant military power would bother with being aggressive towards other peoples. They have a history of attempting to be total isolationists from humans. They probably don't care much about other cultures but the only thing they want to do with their own culture and religion is preserving them, not spreading them. The most likely reason some elves are so aggressive now is because they're very protective of their dwindling race and culture.

About the first war with the Qunari, there is nothing mentioning a Qunari offer of peace OR that their war effort was going well. The Exalted Marches pushed them back. At most, there was a stalemate, and it was the human rulers of Rivain who brokered peace. I find it highly unlikely that the Qunari themselves would personally offer peace, since their "honor" demands that they fight and wage their holy wars of conversion until all of Thedas converts to the Qun.

Modifié par Vit246, 02 juillet 2011 - 12:35 .

[MinotaurWarrior]

The elves are isolationist because they believe humans are poison who shorten their lives by their very presence. I don't find it all that hard to believe that if the Dalish were more powerful, they would be a real threat to the humans.

You are, however, correct about the Qunari faring worse than I had thought against the exalted marches, though the human rulers of Rivain were Qunari, just not kossith.

[LobselVith8]

Fidget6 wrote...

Did anyone actually do this? I just did for the first time on my latest playthrough, and woah Isabela has a great VA because the scene actually gave me chills. "You haven't seen the last of me Hawke!" Also if you do it after sleeping with Isabela as male Hawke you get the easily missed line "You came up short in so many ways." xD I thought it was great she got one last quip in before being dragged off.

Does Feynriel's note to Hawke have a more negative spin about how Tevinter perceives Hawke if he hands Isabela over to the Arishok, since he doesn't kill the Qunari leader?

I liked Isabela, so my Antivan-ish apostate didn't hand her over to the Arishok. Everyone has flaws in the storyline - it's true that Isabela did take the tome, but she came back despite the battle with the Qunari, risking her own life to do so. Hawke duelled the Arishok, and subsequently became a hero to the Tevinter Imperium and Basalit-an to the Qunari in Par Vollen.

My Hero of Ferelden "met" her, liked her, and my Hawke accepted her for who she was. Isabela underwent character development throughout the storyline - she was antagonistic towards Aveline, then it became a friendly rivalry, and they eventually became good friends. Isabela was a good friend to Merrill, refusing to take her elven item, even going as far as to threaten to cut off Hawke's b***s if he hurt Merrill if they are romantically involved.

DreamerM wrote...

We can give Isabella to the Arishok, even though it's very wrong.

We can sell Fenris back to Denarius, even though it's very wrong.


HOW COME WE CAN'T GIVE ANDERS TO THE TEMPLARS? We'd have much more reason to do that then to do either of those other things.

Oh, right, because then everyone would and the Act 3 finale wouldn't happen. Damn you plot contrivance! Damn youuu!

And give up the chance to leave the Hellmouth forever? Perish the thought.

[dragonflight288]

I personally want more codex entries on the Qunari society and definitely want to see Par Vollen and Seherron. Actually see their culture outside of the military arm we only see in the Arishok and Sten. Do we blame every country based on their soldiers serving in other countries? Does a single soldier or platoon represent everything their culture stands for?

Until we see more of the Qunari way of life outside of military, I cannot bring myself to hate them. Strongly disagree with them, oppose them on the battlefield, but not hate them.

[Icy Magebane]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I personally want more codex entries on the Qunari society and definitely want to see Par Vollen and Seherron. Actually see their culture outside of the military arm we only see in the Arishok and Sten. Do we blame every country based on their soldiers serving in other countries? Does a single soldier or platoon represent everything their culture stands for?

Until we see more of the Qunari way of life outside of military, I cannot bring myself to hate them. Strongly disagree with them, oppose them on the battlefield, but not hate them.

The thing is, we actually do have a lot of information regarding Qunari culture, even without seeing it firsthand.  Just ask Sten about it... there's one conversation where he tells you about a festival where they Qunari really let their hair down!  The main events include meditation and fasting, and sometimes it gets so out of hand that there are executions when it's winding down.<_< 

But aside from that, I think the fact that we have codex entries and first hand accounts is enough to make judgments.  The way the Qun works, is that there's a place for everything and eveything must be in its place.  This leads me to believe that the entire society is uniform, so there isn't any need to look at any area in particular.  We already know the Qun in great detail... etc...

So basically, saying that since we have not seen the religious branch firsthand means we might be missing something important isn't necessarily true.  We know the ideals of the religious branch, thus we can determine whether or not we agree with the Qun.

[GodWood]

Icy Magebane wrote...
The thing is, we actually do have a lot of information regarding Qunari culture, even without seeing it firsthand.  Just ask Sten about it... there's one conversation where he tells you about a festival where they Qunari really let their hair down!  The main events include meditation and fasting, and sometimes it gets so out of hand that there are executions when it's winding down.<_< 

He actually mentions nothing of fasting and says meditations are abandoned.

Modifié par GodWood, 02 juillet 2011 - 05:38 .

[MinotaurWarrior]

He also mentions "imbibing of spirits" aka drinking booze. The Qunari do appear to understand the concept of a celebration.

[Icy Magebane]

@GodWood - Sorry, I don't have the transcript in front of me... the point was to make a joke about what I think would be a rather boring "festival" and to illustrate that there are examples in game where we are told much about Qunari customs. Sound good?

[dragonflight288]

Okay, how much would you pay to see Qunari citizens celebrating? Letting go of their roles for a day and simply having a good time. We know about it from talking to Sten, but I want to see it.

How much drinking is there? 

What kind of games are played?

Is there tournaments like the medieval jousting or melee combatants?

Do craftmen compete over who can make the greater and stronger blade?

I would love to go to Par Vollen or Seherron and actually see this done, not just hear about it. Actually see the men and women going about their lives, and hear their perspectives of their roles as they aren't fighters.

Aren't you even the least bit curious about what it's truly like?

Modifié par dragonflight288, 02 juillet 2011 - 06:22 .

[MinotaurWarrior]

To be fair, I'd also like to see what normal life is like for a citizen of Kirkwall. As DA is a standard western RPG series, I'm fairly certain we'll never really get to see that, and instead will be treated to more caves full of monsters.

[Icy Magebane]

I'm pretty interested in seeing Par Vollen first hand, but I was more referring to people who actually hate the Qunari and think the Qun is rubbish. I think it's fair to assume we know enough about it to say whether we agree with it or not, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't appreciate seeing it in an upcoming game.

Kind of like Antiva... we know a lot about that nation, but I for one would love to experience it. Probably never going to happen, but still...

[FieryDove]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

 She's brash, a bit selfish. By Act 2, you get to hear party banter that reveals her care and concern for both Aveline and Merrill (especially Merrill).

If Isabela didn't respect Hawke, or care for him/her, she wouldn't have come back with the Tome. The return is indicative of her change of heart - of her trying to do the right thing the only way she knows how. So...instead of saving her hide, it's into the thick of battle for her, and a giving back of what she took.

To me, that's a change. *shrug*

I need to run an all girl party. in Act2 all I heard was more sex from her as she bothered a willing Fenris or lying to Anders about the relic.

She does have a change of heart I agree. But the entire conflict was her fault to begin with. Its a shame we can't let the Arishok live without giving away Izzy. I respected him after his first NO.
I can't romance her, I fear for my Dog too much.

[whykikyouwhy]

FieryDove wrote...

I need to run an all girl party. in Act2 all I heard was more sex from her as she bothered a willing Fenris or lying to Anders about the relic.

She does have a change of heart I agree. But the entire conflict was her fault to begin with. Its a shame we can't let the Arishok live without giving away Izzy. I respected him after his first NO.
I can't romance her, I fear for my Dog too much.

The Sisters-Are-Doing-It-For-Themselves party is quite fun. There is some sex talk, but it's...educational.

I still can't agree that the "entire conflict" was her fault. She's only part of the overall situation - one trigger, perhaps. But then again, you could argue that Castillon is truly at fault. Didn't she steal the Tome at his behest in order to make amends for freeing the slaves? So the Tome was out there as fenced goods, Isabela steals it and decides not to give it to Castillon, the Qunari give chase and run her ship aground (or blast it from the water...maybe both), and the relic is lost.

Her unwillingness to confess everything to Hawke until the end of Act 2 adds more fuel to the fire, yes - perhaps if Hawke had known about it earlier, it could have been recovered faster and the Qunari would be on their way, but that's supposition. There are too many "what if" variables. Whatever the case, she spent time searching for the Tome (if only,at first, to save herself) and came up with nothing but an old boot until Act 2. The Qunari being in Kirkwall for an extended period of time and seeing a culture (or lack of?) in complete opposition to their own and being treated as pariahs/interlopers/a pox/etc - that had more to do with the conflict, and it's eventual outcome, than anything. The missing Tome is just the ball setting things in motion.

Why do so many people think that the dog is at risk with Isabela? She seemed fond of him, in a wary wasn't-raised-with-pets sort of way. Maybe she just prefers kittens. Besides, it's Varric who corrupts the Mabari...teaching him to play cards and all.

[Porenferser]

I did it because Isabella is a **** and I don't want to kill the Arishok.

[FieryDove]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

I still can't agree that the "entire conflict" was her fault. She's only part of the overall situation - one trigger, perhaps.

I think she said about the relic:

I stole it from them, they followed me here to reclaim it, that's why they are still in Kirkwall. They can't leave the free marches without it.

Yes?

Maybe she did not intend to start a war but...she did. Most of my characters with any sense would turn her over in a heartbeat, sadly most of my characters don't have any sense.

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Why do so many people think that the dog is at risk with Isabela? She seemed fond of him, in a wary wasn't-raised-with-pets sort of way.

I don't think I could express it well enough for public consumption so I won't.

[whykikyouwhy]

FieryDove wrote...
I think she said about the relic:

I stole it from them, they followed me here to reclaim it, that's why they are still in Kirkwall. They can't leave the free marches without it.

Yes?

Maybe she did not intend to start a war but...she did. Most of my characters with any sense would turn her over in a heartbeat, sadly most of my characters don't have any sense.

By your characters, do you mean Hawke (over multiple playthroughs) or do you mean the companions? I can't speak to your Hawke, but I found Aveline to have a lot of sense. She was very much of the mindset that Isabela stays in Kirkwall to accept the appropriate punishment of the law. Or, as I think I stated before, an armored boot.

But again, I feel that Isabela was just part of the situation. Her actions brought the Qunari to Kirkwall. But in all manner of scenarios, their extended stay could have turned out differently.

We'll just have to disagree on that.

I don't think I could express it well enough for public consumption so I won't.

As for the dog, it saddens me that people make some correlation to Isabela's free spirited ways to some willingness to engage in acts with animals. Just because a woman likes sex, and may like it from various partners, doesn't mean she would cavort with a hound.

[FieryDove]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

As for the dog, it saddens me that people make some correlation to Isabela's free spirited ways to some willingness to engage in acts with animals. Just because a woman likes sex, and may like it from various partners, doesn't mean she would cavort with a hound.

Ugh...no I was not talking about that at all.

PM me if you want to hear my opinion.

I do believe we will have to disagree on who's fault the Q coming/invading were. I still like her tho, that's what I meant most of my Hawke's have no sense since they do NOT hand her over.

[hoorayforicecream]

FieryDove wrote...

I think she said about the relic:

I stole it from them, they followed me here to reclaim it, that's why they are still in Kirkwall. They can't leave the free marches without it.

Yes?

Maybe she did not intend to start a war but...she did. Most of my characters with any sense would turn her over in a heartbeat, sadly most of my characters don't have any sense.

Saying Isabela caused the Qunari conflict would be the equivalent of saying the Qunari have no sense of free will. She might have chosen to bring the Qunari to Kirkwall, but the QUNARI chose to kill everyone.

The Qunari chose to come to Kirkwall.
The Qunari chose to not do anything for 4 years.
The Qunari chose to attack the city after 4 years over an incident that had nothing to do with the tome of koslun.

Is there some amount of liability with Isabela? Sure. She led them there. But she's not responsible for what they do or whom they kill. As living, breathing, thinking creatures, they are responsible for what they do and whom they kill.

[FieryDove]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Saying Isabela caused the Qunari conflict would be the equivalent of saying the Qunari have no sense of free will. She might have chosen to bring the Qunari to Kirkwall, but the QUNARI chose to kill everyone.

The Qunari chose to come to Kirkwall.
The Qunari chose to not do anything for 4 years.
The Qunari chose to attack the city after 4 years over an incident that had nothing to do with the tome of koslun.

Is there some amount of liability with Isabela? Sure. She led them there. But she's not responsible for what they do or whom they kill. As living, breathing, thinking creatures, they are responsible for what they do and whom they kill.

Do you think the Qunari would have started the war if Isabela had not stolen and took off with the blasted relic *again*. I know they were getting pretty fed up with things, in fact I don't think Sten (DAO one) could have as much patience as the Arishok did. It really did surprise me how much he kept putting up with.

[sphinxess]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

I think she said about the relic:

I stole it from them, they followed me here to reclaim it, that's why they are still in Kirkwall. They can't leave the free marches without it.

Yes?

Maybe she did not intend to start a war but...she did. Most of my characters with any sense would turn her over in a heartbeat, sadly most of my characters don't have any sense.

Saying Isabela caused the Qunari conflict would be the equivalent of saying the Qunari have no sense of free will. She might have chosen to bring the Qunari to Kirkwall, but the QUNARI chose to kill everyone.

The Qunari chose to come to Kirkwall.
The Qunari chose to not do anything for 4 years.
The Qunari chose to attack the city after 4 years over an incident that had nothing to do with the tome of koslun.

Is there some amount of liability with Isabela? Sure. She led them there. But she's not responsible for what they do or whom they kill. As living, breathing, thinking creatures, they are responsible for what they do and whom they kill.

What was the tome doing so far from the Qunari homeland anyway? Makes me think it was being used as a trap to catch someone and they blew it.  Kinda like the poison gas/gunpowder formula quest.

[hoorayforicecream]

FieryDove wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Saying Isabela caused the Qunari conflict would be the equivalent of saying the Qunari have no sense of free will. She might have chosen to bring the Qunari to Kirkwall, but the QUNARI chose to kill everyone.

The Qunari chose to come to Kirkwall.
The Qunari chose to not do anything for 4 years.
The Qunari chose to attack the city after 4 years over an incident that had nothing to do with the tome of koslun.

Is there some amount of liability with Isabela? Sure. She led them there. But she's not responsible for what they do or whom they kill. As living, breathing, thinking creatures, they are responsible for what they do and whom they kill.

Do you think the Qunari would have started the war if Isabela had not stolen and took off with the blasted relic *again*. I know they were getting pretty fed up with things, in fact I don't think Sten (DAO one) could have as much patience as the Arishok did. It really did surprise me how much he kept putting up with.

Yes, they would. The reason the Arishok attacks is not because she took off with the book, but because he is sick and tired of the corruption and people of Kirkwall. What does the Arishok say when Hawke finds him? He doesn't say "Bring me the tome", he goes on a speech about how the people of Kirkwall are like fat dathrasi. Don't you think that if they were there because they wanted the tome, they'd actually demand the tome?

They were fed up with things, but not because of the tome. They were fed up because they couldn't stand it in Kirkwall, and were honor-bound not to go home, so the Arishok decided to take over the city.

[Vit246]

sphinxess wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

I think she said about the relic:

I stole it from them, they followed me here to reclaim it, that's why they are still in Kirkwall. They can't leave the free marches without it.

Yes?

Maybe she did not intend to start a war but...she did. Most of my characters with any sense would turn her over in a heartbeat, sadly most of my characters don't have any sense.

Saying Isabela caused the Qunari conflict would be the equivalent of saying the Qunari have no sense of free will. She might have chosen to bring the Qunari to Kirkwall, but the QUNARI chose to kill everyone.

The Qunari chose to come to Kirkwall.
The Qunari chose to not do anything for 4 years.
The Qunari chose to attack the city after 4 years over an incident that had nothing to do with the tome of koslun.

Is there some amount of liability with Isabela? Sure. She led them there. But she's not responsible for what they do or whom they kill. As living, breathing, thinking creatures, they are responsible for what they do and whom they kill.

What was the tome doing so far from the Qunari homeland anyway? Makes me think it was being used as a trap to catch someone and they blew it.  Kinda like the poison gas/gunpowder formula quest.

Somehow, Orlais claimed it as spoils of war during the Exalted Marches against the Qunari. They were planning on giving it back but Isabela stole it. But I still wonder how or why the tome was physically in the Thedas main continent, away from the Qunari islands.

[hoorayforicecream]

Vit246 wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

What was the tome doing so far from the Qunari homeland anyway? Makes me think it was being used as a trap to catch someone and they blew it.  Kinda like the poison gas/gunpowder formula quest.

Somehow, Orlais claimed it as spoils of war during the Exalted Marches against the Qunari. They were planning on giving it back but Isabela stole it. But I still wonder how or why the tome was physically in the Thedas main continent, away from the Qunari islands.

Because you don't keep your big important trophy on the front, you bring it home to display as a trophy.