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[Icy Magebane]

The Qunari spent more time in Kirkwall looking for the Tome than they would have if it hadn't been stolen in the first place... Hell, they wouldn't have even visited Kirkwall had they not tracked Isabela that far. Yes, the Arishok and his men decided to take over (or try too), but the only reason they even came to that conclusion is because they spent an extended amount of time in Kirkwall, which, again, would not have happened had the Tome never been stolen in the first place. It is Isabela's fault that they were there for so long, thus, she is at least partly (I say mostly) responsible for their actions.

Here's the other thing... Isabela gets shipwrecked, the Tome disappears, nobody knows what's going on for 3-4 years... okay. So once they DO find the Tome, and it's obvious that the Qunari have been getting restless after staying in Kirkwall for so long, rather than immediately return it to them in an effort to get them to leave before things get violent, she steals it from the party and runs off to Castillon. Unless you befriend her (edit: or become rivals...), which again simply shows that she's more concerned with her own life (meaning, responsibility to friends) than the many lives lost due to her actions (directly or indirectly, it seems callous to accept no responsibility at all)... I think it's pretty pathetic TBH. But then, I'll freely admit that I have little patience for companion betrayals of any kind, especially the whole, "oh, I said I was sorry for screwing you over and getting thousands killed, so let's forget it happened," routine.

@ sphinxess - As far as I can recall, the Tome was being returned to them by the Orlesians who had recovered it... it had been lost for centuries or something like that... whoever wants to can correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't played DA2 in a long time...

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 02 juillet 2011 - 04:51 .

[Mr.House]

I saw it on youtube, my heart cried inside.

[hoorayforicecream]

Icy Magebane wrote...

The Qunari spent more time in Kirkwall looking for the Tome than they would have if it hadn't been stolen in the first place... Hell, they wouldn't have even visited Kirkwall had they not tracked Isabela that far. Yes, the Arishok and his men decided to take over (or try too), but the only reason they even came to that conclusion is because they spent an extended amount of time in Kirkwall, which, again, would not have happened had the Tome never been stolen in the first place. It is Isabela's fault that they were there for so long, thus, she is at least partly (I say mostly) responsible for their actions.

I'd say that they are mostly responsible for their actions. As you say, they came there because of Isabela. But it certainly wasn't Isabela who kept them there. It wouldn't have mattered *why* they were there at all; they could have been stuck there because of some other reason and they still would have attacked the city, because the reason they attacked the city had nothing to do with Isabela. Isabela's only incidental to this, which is why the majority of the blame should be on the people doing the actual killing.

Here's the other thing... Isabela gets shipwrecked, the Tome disappears, nobody knows what's going on for 3-4 years... okay. So once they DO find the Tome, and it's obvious that the Qunari have been getting restless after staying in Kirkwall for so long, rather than immediately return it to them in an effort to get them to leave before things get violent, she steals it from the party and runs off to Castillon. Unless you befriend her, which again simply shows that she's more concerned with her own life (meaning, responsibility to friends) than the many lives lost due to her actions (directly or indirectly, it seems callous to accept no responsibility at all)... I think it's pretty pathetic TBH. But then, I'll freely admit that I have little patience for companion betrayals of any kind, especially the whole, "oh, I said I was sorry for screwing you over and getting thousands killed, so let's forget it happened," routine.

Because up to that point, the Qunari had sat on their hands for four years without reacting violently. There was no way of knowing that a couple of elves embracing the Qun would be the straw that broke the camel's back and cause the Qunari to attack, and there's no mention of any relationship between the attack and the tome by the Arishok until Isabela brings the tome back. There's no reason to believe that it wouldn't have kept going the exact same way that it had been for four years.

[Vit246]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

What was the tome doing so far from the Qunari homeland anyway? Makes me think it was being used as a trap to catch someone and they blew it.  Kinda like the poison gas/gunpowder formula quest.

Somehow, Orlais claimed it as spoils of war during the Exalted Marches against the Qunari. They were planning on giving it back but Isabela stole it. But I still wonder how or why the tome was physically in the Thedas main continent, away from the Qunari islands.

Because you don't keep your big important trophy on the front, you bring it home to display as a trophy.

You misunderstand. What I mean is: For Orlais to have stolen it in the first place, the tome, for some reason, HAD to have been in the Thedas mainland continent, and not the Qunari homelands. Seheron and Par Vollen have never been invaded by Orlais. I am asking how and why the tome was not in either of those islands, safe from capture. I am asking how and why the most sacred Qunari relic was exposed to the possibility of Orlesian capture.

Modifié par Vit246, 02 juillet 2011 - 05:00 .

[randomcheeses]

Vit246 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

What was the tome doing so far from the Qunari homeland anyway? Makes me think it was being used as a trap to catch someone and they blew it.  Kinda like the poison gas/gunpowder formula quest.

Somehow, Orlais claimed it as spoils of war during the Exalted Marches against the Qunari. They were planning on giving it back but Isabela stole it. But I still wonder how or why the tome was physically in the Thedas main continent, away from the Qunari islands.

Because you don't keep your big important trophy on the front, you bring it home to display as a trophy.

You misunderstand. What I mean is: For Orlais to have stolen it in the first place, the tome, for some reason, HAD to have been in the Thedas mainland continent, and not the Qunari homelands. Seheron and Par Vollen have never been invaded by Orlais. I am asking how and why the tome was not in either of those islands, safe from capture. I am asking how and why the most sacred Qunari relic was exposed to unneccessary risk for theft. 

Well, the Qunari are kinda gung ho about them being the best at everything they do and how theirs is the only right way to do things. It's entirely likely that they thought the Tome was perfectly safe because they underestimated the Orlesians and assumed that they couldn't be that big of a threat.

[sphinxess]

Vit246 wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

What was the tome doing so far from the Qunari homeland anyway? Makes me think it was being used as a trap to catch someone and they blew it.  Kinda like the poison gas/gunpowder formula quest.

Somehow, Orlais claimed it as spoils of war during the Exalted Marches against the Qunari. They were planning on giving it back but Isabela stole it. But I still wonder how or why the tome was physically in the Thedas main continent, away from the Qunari islands.

Because you don't keep your big important trophy on the front, you bring it home to display as a trophy.

You misunderstand. What I mean is: For Orlais to have stolen it in the first place, the tome, for some reason, HAD to have been in the Thedas mainland continent, and not the Qunari homelands. Seheron and Par Vollen have never been invaded by Orlais. I am asking how and why the tome was not in either of those islands, safe from capture. I am asking how and why the most sacred Qunari relic was exposed to unneccessary risk for theft. 

Goes back to my original thought - bait?

Just had a funny thought - remember how Isabela likes to scribble on things....

Modifié par sphinxess, 02 juillet 2011 - 05:03 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Vit246 wrote...

You misunderstand. What I mean is: For Orlais to have stolen it in the first place, the tome, for some reason, HAD to have been in the Thedas mainland continent, and not the Qunari homelands. Seheron and Par Vollen have never been invaded by Orlais. I am asking how and why the tome was not in either of those islands, safe from capture. I am asking how and why the most sacred Qunari relic was exposed to unneccessary risk for theft. 

Oh... in that case, I imagine it was probably some sort of 'bring the culture with us' type deal, since they are leaving their homeland and need something symbolic to remind them of home. The Qunari are nothing if not supremely (over) confident in their own ability, so the thought that they might actually lose the tome probably never even crossed their minds at the time.

[Icy Magebane]

@ horrayforicecream - The fact is that at a certain point, a hero places the greater good above their own welfare. With the countless Qunari, lesser dragons, bandits, raiders, and assassins Hawke and the team had slaughtered, there is no excuse for Isabela to simply run away in the middle of a huge crisis because she fears for her own safety. She thinks that Hawke can't protect her from Castillon, but she still feels okay with abandoning the group right in the midst of a huge threat to the city... basically, she abandons them to die and doesn't have enough honor to stand by them in what could potentially be (and turned out to be, imagine that!) a large scale conflict. That's cowardly, and I have no respect for it.

Plus, you'd have to be blind to not realize something was going to happen... but oh, that's right, every time Hawke met with the Arishok, Isabela ducked out and left the team high and dry. So I guess she wouldn't know about how angry he was getting, or the fact that he had been making threats about the possibility of converting Kirkwall for some time. Yeah, I guess she gets a pass on all of that...

Isabela is only interested in herself, and I say she should have to face the consequences for that kind of behavior. But of course, depending on Hawke's personality, the results are going to be different, as this thread proves.

One last thing... I realize that the Qunari are the aggressors. My entire point is that she is the cause for them being there in the first place. That sounds pretty simple to me. No theft, no prolonged stay in Kirkwall, no war. Simple.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 02 juillet 2011 - 05:12 .

[whykikyouwhy]

@Icy Magebane - Then why not blame the Orlesians who had the relic in their possession first? Why not blame Castillon, who threatened Isabela and demanded that she steal the Tome? Why not blame Koslun for writing the Tome (or being the source of its contents) in the first place?

Blame for the outcome, no matter how horrific, cannot be put solely on one individual who, while involved to a degree, did not continue to stir the figurative fire. Yes, Isabela retrieves the Tome and leaves, and yes, she is known to be selfish, but her character development shows her to be heroic and noble (to what degree may be another discussion entirely). If you hear about her backstory, you understand that she is a survivor - she is going to cunningly work her way out of bad situations, and look out for herself because no one else has. It's through her interactions with Hawke and the rest of the companions that she becomes less selfish and more concerned about others.

It's *that* Isabela who returns. That plot arc exists, regardless of friendship/rivalry, because that possibility of heroiosm is there.

[hoorayforicecream]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@ horrayforicecream - The fact is that at a certain point, a hero places the greater good above their own welfare. With the countless Qunari, lesser dragons, bandits, raiders, and assassins Hawke and the team had slaughtered, there is no excuse for Isabela to simply run away in the middle of a huge crisis because she fears for her own safety. She thinks that Hawke can't protect her from Castillon, but she still feels okay with abandoning the group right in the midst of a huge threat to the city... basically, she abandons them to die and doesn't have enough honor to stand by them in what could potentially be (and turned out to be, imagine that!) a large scale conflict. That's cowardly, and I have no respect for it.

There is no huge threat to the city when she runs off any more than there had been for four years. Your timeline is off. The Qunari don't attack until Hawke and Aveline go to the Qunari compound, which is decidedly after Isabela runs off with the tome. It is not possible for Isabela to run off when there is a huge threat to the city. When she ran off, all observable details were as they had been for the past four years. You're essentially blaming Isabela for not being able to predict the future (something she's been shown to be bad at).

One last thing... I realize that the Qunari are the aggressors. My entire point is that she is the cause for them being there in the first place. That sounds pretty simple to me. No theft, no prolonged stay in Kirkwall, no war. Simple.

By reducing it that far, you're taking away the Qunari's culpability and free will. If I start a fight with someone and then that guy ends up pulling a gun and shoots bystanders, should *I* get charged with murder? Am *I* the one ultimately responsible for the shooting? I contend that it would be the guy actually shooting the gun who is responsible here.

[Ulathar]

Fidget6 wrote...
Did anyone actually do this?

Yes. In my last pt I finally worked up enough friendship points for her to come back...so I could give her to the Qunari.

[Icy Magebane]

See, here's the thing... Sister Petrice and her zealots kidnapped a Qunari delegation and then killed the Viscount's son while attempting to blame the Qunari.  This was all in an attempt to further incite the citizens against them and push tensions between the two groups past the breaking point, and I'm fairly certain that Isabela was there to witness that.  This is why I'm saying that the conflict was obviously inevitable.  Disappearing in the middle of all that, especially with a sacred relic that could possibly be used to pacify and get rid of the Qunari once and for all, is irresponsible.  Even if the chances were slim, returning the book was the best option for peace, but this was not Isabela's primary concern.  Her loyalty was to herself, and that includes the personal relationships she managed to cultivate, assuming you either befriended her or made her a rival.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Icy Magebane wrote...
One last thing... I realize that the Qunari are the aggressors. My entire point is that she is the cause for them being there in the first place. That sounds pretty simple to me. No theft, no prolonged stay in Kirkwall, no war. Simple.

By reducing it that far, you're taking away the Qunari's culpability and free will. If I start a fight with someone and then that guy ends up pulling a gun and shoots bystanders, should *I* get charged with murder? Am *I* the one ultimately responsible for the shooting? I contend that it would be the guy actually shooting the gun who is responsible here.

Not at all.  Not unless the guy threatened to start shooting people if you didn't give him back the wallet you stole from him a few minutes ago.  In that scenario, responsibility is shared, although not in the eyes of the law, I guess... lol...

Edit:
@whykikyouwhy - Given the temperment of most rogues, I understand why Isabela would act this way... I mean, if this was Alistair we were talking about, all of this would be completely out of character and strange.  All I'm saying is that given the situation, it's hard for me to completely absolve her of guilt... there are too many lives at stake to be worried about some pirate, when Hawke and the team are more than competent enough to defeat dragons.  It's irrational to be afraid of Castillon, and after fighting him, I feel even more strongly about that then when he was just a name... I didn't find him very impressive or threatening...

Isabela grew as a character, that's true (maybe...).  But really, it's going to depend on the player to decide what is and is not a forgivable crime... personally, I just think that teams don't need members who are willing to abandon them even once.  It could happen again, in spite of what she claims, so I just am not willing to take that risk.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 02 juillet 2011 - 05:44 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Icy Magebane wrote...

See, here's the thing... Sister Petrice and her zealots kidnapped a Qunari delegation and then killed the Viscount's son while attempting to blame the Qunari.  This was all in an attempt to further incite the citizens against them and push tensions between the two groups past the breaking point, and I'm fairly certain that Isabela was there to witness that.  This is why I'm saying that the conflict was obviously inevitable.  Disappearing in the middle of all that, especially with a sacred relic that could possibly be used to pacify and get rid of the Qunari once and for all, is irresponsible.  Even if the chances were slim, returning the book was the best option for peace, but this was not Isabela's primary concern.  Her loyalty was to herself, and that includes the personal relationships she managed to cultivate, assuming you either befriended her or made her a rival.

Blaming someone for being selfish is very, very different than blaming someone for being the cause of a massive battle. I don't disagree that Isabela's selfish. I don't think she's particularly heroic. But that doesn't mean it's all/mostly her fault that the Qunari attacked, or that she deserves to be given to the Qunari. It just means she's not a particularly generous or heroic person.

If such a conflict was really inevitable, if the writing was really on the wall like you say, why didn't the city of Kirkwall take more precautions? Why didn't they bolster the guard and be on hand to stop the Qunari before they had a chance to start their rampage? If it was so easy to see it coming and so inevitable, I contend that they wouldn't have been caught so unawares and the Qunari wouldn't have been able to kill the Viscount so easily. Nobody else was able to predict what the Qunari were going to do, why do you blame Isabela for this and not Aveline, or the Viscount, or the Seneschal, or Meredith?

hoorayforicecream wrote...

By reducing it that far, you're taking away the Qunari's culpability and free will. If I start a fight with someone and then that guy ends up pulling a gun and shoots bystanders, should *I* get charged with murder? Am *I* the one ultimately responsible for the shooting? I contend that it would be the guy actually shooting the gun who is responsible here.

Not at all.  Not unless the guy threatened to start shooting people if you didn't give him back the wallet you stole from him a few minutes ago.  In that scenario, responsibility is shared, although not in the eyes of the law, I guess... lol...

When did the Qunari demand that the tome be returned to them? I don't remember the Qunari ever threatening to attack unless the tome was returned to them. Can you remind me when that cutscene happened?

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 02 juillet 2011 - 05:54 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Icy Magebane wrote...

Edit:
@whykikyouwhy - Given the temperment of most rogues, I understand why Isabela would act this way... I mean, if this was Alistair we were talking about, all of this would be completely out of character and strange.  All I'm saying is that given the situation, it's hard for me to completely absolve her of guilt... there are too many lives at stake to be worried about some pirate, when Hawke and the team are more than competent enough to defeat dragons.  It's irrational to be afraid of Castillon, and after fighting him, I feel even more strongly about that then when he was just a name... I didn't find him very impressive or threatening...

Isabela grew as a character, that's true (maybe...).  But really, it's going to depend on the player to decide what is and is not a forgivable crime... personally, I just think that teams don't need members who are willing to abandon them even once.  It could happen again, in spite of what she claims, so I just am not willing to take that risk.

I don't know that we're given enough information to understand the hold Castillon has over Isabela, or the true degree of threat that he poses to her. We do know that he is powerful, and has numerous ties. We know that he is expanding his slaving operations. So while he, as an individual, may not have be much of a threat in a fight, he, as an enemy, might be able to call upon all sorts of forces/favors in order to commit horrible acts upon Isabela. Something far worse perhaps than a standard dagger to the back.

Personally, I like a bit of conflict in my games. I like unscrupulous characters, even in the party. I think it adds a nice element to gameplay. Not everyone is going to be holding pure intentions, people are going to have their own motives and needs. It's when everyone is fighting on the same side and for a common good that cohesion is built, but that doesn't take away from the internal struggles or desires. Those, to me, are the very immersive qualities of the characters, even if they eventually decide to go their own way.

[FieryDove]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Yes, they would. The reason the Arishok attacks is not because she took off with the book, but because he is sick and tired of the corruption and people of Kirkwall. What does the Arishok say when Hawke finds him? He doesn't say "Bring me the tome", he goes on a speech about how the people of Kirkwall are like fat dathrasi. Don't you think that if they were there because they wanted the tome, they'd actually demand the tome?

They were fed up with things, but not because of the tome. They were fed up because they couldn't stand it in Kirkwall, and were honor-bound not to go home, so the Arishok decided to take over the city.

I could be remembering it wrong but...I thought the first thing the Arishok asks about is the relic. That in my mind is the most important thing he wants, the elves that Aveline wants to talk about can wait till he hears what happened to the relic...again.

If we had it in our hands to give over to him maybe things could have stopped right there and they would leave. Then again maybe not because at that point they had every reason to feel insulted and fed up.

Isabela is too...fickle? I really don't know how to put it, she knew letting those slaves go would tick someone off. If she had to steal the relic to appease that person she should have headed somewhere else...anywhere without a lot of people or better yet no people. She put more people in danger than she saved from slavery. It just seems out of character for her in that regard. Heart of gold - heart of stone - heart of gold. I don't know how else to explain it.

Modifié par FieryDove, 02 juillet 2011 - 05:58 .

[Icy Magebane]

@horrayforicecream - The fact remains that situations have causes and effects. You can say the guards didn't take precautions the same way you can say that Hawke should have searched the Foundry in Act 1 for the mysterious mage's escape hatch. Look, you cannot deny that this started with Isabela stealing the Tome. The Qunari were in Kirkwall because of this. That is the only reason they were there, and that's the only reason they even noticed the "problems" with Kirkwall in the first place. The other effects we're talking about are related to Isabela and the Qunari specifically. I think the Viscount should have kicked them out long ago and have a hard time believing that the Templars, Circle of Magi, and Guards couldn't have forced them out after the first year. But you could pass blame all around if you wanted... I was under the impression we were talking about Isabela and how she related the the Qunari, not every NPC and their impacts on the war.

The facts, as I see them, are that yes, there is plenty of blame to be passed around, but Isabela deserves a lot of it. Most, some, partial, whatever... I think she had a huge impact on this event, both at the start and the climax (meaning, the war breaks out once Hawke has a chance to return the book, but can't).

Also, I distinctly remember a conversation with the Arishok where he tells Hawke exactly why he isn't leaving... "No ship is coming, blah blah, a thief stole from us, before, not the Sar Qamek, etc... THAT is why we cannot leave!!" [qunari-nerdrage] Now, given the fact that I haven't played this game in months, I have no idea exactly when he said that, but he did eventually say why they were really there... (shrug) If that's not good enough, I don't know what can convince you.

whykikyouwhy wrote...
I don't know that we're given enough
information to understand the hold Castillon has over Isabela, or the
true degree of threat that he poses to her. We do know that he is
powerful, and has numerous ties. We know that he is expanding his
slaving operations. So while he, as an individual, may not have be much
of a threat in a fight, he, as an enemy, might be able to call upon all
sorts of forces/favors in order to commit horrible acts upon Isabela.
Something far worse perhaps than a standard dagger to the back.

Personally,
I like a bit of conflict in my games. I like unscrupulous characters,
even in the party. I think it adds a nice element to gameplay. Not
everyone is going to be holding pure intentions, people are going to
have their own motives and needs. It's when everyone is fighting on the
same side and for a common good that cohesion is built, but that doesn't
take away from the internal struggles or desires. Those, to me, are the
very immersive qualities of the characters, even if they eventually
decide to go their own way.

See, I kind of agree with that, but maybe just in the sense that characters display a great deal of conflict and growth.  This is kind of why I would have prefered a rogue like Zevran, who was extremely shady, but never betrayed the Warden (unless you didn't befriend him, of course...).  That would have made the story less interesting, I'll admit.  As much as I dislike Isabela's actions, I think this entire situation was invaluable to the overall quality of the story.  Like or dislike, I would not trade this scene and character arc for a bland "Yes Man" type of companion...

Oh, and you made a good point about Castillon having connections, etc... I tended to play as a rather arrogant Hawke who just never saw him as a threat on the scale of something like the Rock Wraith... I mean, if he and Varric could defeat that thing by themselves, then I just had a hard time taking this threat seriously.  But yeah, I can see how it could have been a less obvious threat than I saw it as... 

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 02 juillet 2011 - 06:07 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@horrayforicecream - The fact remains that situations have causes and effects. You can say the guards didn't take precautions the same way you can say that Hawke should have searched the Foundry in Act 1 for the mysterious mage's escape hatch. Look, you cannot deny that this started with Isabela stealing the Tome. The Qunari were in Kirkwall because of this. That is the only reason they were there, and that's the only reason they even noticed the "problems" with Kirkwall in the first place. The other effects we're talking about are related to Isabela and the Qunari specifically. I think the Viscount should have kicked them out long ago and have a hard time believing that the Templars, Circle of Magi, and Guards couldn't have forced them out after the first year. But you could pass blame all around if you wanted... I was under the impression we were talking about Isabela and how she related the the Qunari, not every NPC and their impacts on the war.

I never said that Isabela is blameless. I just said that she's not the one who is directly responsible for the Qunari's actions - I believe the Qunari are responsible for their actions. That's a pretty big difference.

I bring up the other people of Kirkwall, because of your argument. If you say that Isabela should have known because it was inevitable, then everyone else should have known too and reacted appropriately. By singling Isabela out for this in terms of culpability, you're applying a double standard to the conflict. It's Aveline's job to protect the city, and she fails miserably because she didn't see it coming. It's the Viscount's job to oversee the city, but he fails miserably because he didn't see it coming either. I don't understand why you want to blame Isabela for running off when you say things should be obvious, when it isn't obvious to the two people in the city who have access to far more information than the pirate who hangs out in the bar.

The facts, as I see them, are that yes, there is plenty of blame to be passed around, but Isabela deserves a lot of it. Most, some, partial, whatever... I think she had a huge impact on this event, both at the start and the climax (meaning, the war breaks out once Hawke has a chance to return the book, but can't).

I don't think she deserves a lot of it. I think the Qunari deserve a lot of it.

Also, I distinctly remember a conversation with the Arishok where he tells Hawke exactly why he isn't leaving... "No ship is coming, blah blah, a thief stole from us, before, not the Sar Qamek, etc... THAT is why we cannot leave!!" [qunari-nerdrage] Now, given the fact that I haven't played this game in months, I have no idea exactly when he said that, but he did eventually say why they were really there... (shrug) If that's not good enough, I don't know what can convince you.

Saying why they aren't leaving is very different from saying "Give us back the tome or we are going to kill a whole bunch of people". The Qunari were decidedly unclear as to why they were sticking around. Aveline didn't know, and neither did the Arishok. Had they known, they would have torn the city apart looking for the tome. But they didn't because the Arishok wouldn't tell them. Even when he did say something, he never mentions any specifics. There is no threat of violence either. If there was, I expect there would have been a very different outcome. The main reason that the Qunari attack was so effective was that it was a surprise attack.

The actual lines are:

It will take as long as needed. No ship is coming. There is no rescue from duty to the Qun.

Should I argue the wind? Very well. Filth stole from us. Not now, not the saar-qamek. Years ago.

*That* is why this elf and her shadows are unimportant. *That* is why I do not simply walk from this pustule of a city!

A simple act of greed has bound me. We are all denied Par Vollen until I *alone* recover what was lost under *my* command!

The only person who would be able to make this connection would be Isabela, who isn't there (and never gets a chance) to hear the Arishok's reasoning, because she is rightly afraid of being stabbed with large pointy objects like Aveline's guardsmen are. Nobody from Kirkwall understands the Qun or the Arishok's thought process. I find it really difficult to blame someone for being unable to predict the future and not knowing things that they weren't there to hear, but maybe you don't.

[Icy Magebane]

@horrayforicecream - This conversation isn't about the entire population of Kirkwall, and I've already said that there's a lot of blame to be handed out. You seem to think that the Qunari attacking Kirkwall is strictly their "fault," whereas I see it as the result of being in a place they had no business being for far too long. Isabela stole the book, did she not? The entire series of events was set in motion by her actions... her unwillingness to act in spite of this gives her more responsibility, and therefore more guilt, than those who are simply reacting to the situation. Those who had no hand in bringing it about.

I'll say it once more: Isabela, who you just said would be the only one who would understand the significance of the Arishok's words, had a better understanding of the situation than almost anyone else involved. I say almost because my version of Hawke figured out what was going on fairly quickly, but of course, our options to influence the story are limited. Given that knowledge, and the knowledge of rising racial tensions that may or may not escalate to open war, she ran off with the Tome at the very point in time when she had a chance to prevent what WAS in fact, an obvious conflict. The Qunari are, after all, known for starting wars that all of Thedas can't win even when working in concert. Remember how the Viscount was wetting himself at the very thought of war with them for the entire Act? Yeah, that's because everyone knew something bad was coming, and then the person who brought them there in the first place steals the book that might prevent a war from starting. Very responsible behavior and in no way the cause of thousands of deaths. Right.

(edit: Regarding her absence during the Arishok's speeches...  Given that she was at the heart of Act 2's events, and that she witnessed first hand several Qunari-related situations like the kidnappings and Saemus's death, etc, she would have known what was going on without needing to hear the Arishok tell Hawke about the theft.  She knows the book is missing, she knows the Qunari are getting angry over the events of this year, etc...  no need to stand there and listen to the Arishok say anything when you have information that only you and the Qunari themselves have access to.)

You claim that nobody in Kirkwall understands the Qun? Hawke had a pretty good grasp of the basics, if not the finer points. Maybe you weren't trying to understand what the Arishok was saying? What the Aarvarad said? Or even the Tal'Vashoth merc? If you view the Qunari as simple antagonists, then it's easy to attribute all responsibility to them. No threat of violence? Didn't you pay attention when the Arishok spoke of the possibility of forcibly converting the citizens? He mentioned this several times, hinted that the Qun did not demand that they tame Kirkwall... yet. All the evidence is right in front of us, and it's not really that complicated to see that as tensions rose, there would be violence...

If you want to give Isabela a complete pass, that's your business. The evidence isn't really in favor of your argument though.

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 02 juillet 2011 - 06:50 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@horrayforicecream - This conversation isn't about the entire population of Kirkwall, and I've already said that there's a lot of blame to be handed out. You seem to think that the Qunari attacking Kirkwall is strictly their "fault," whereas I see it as the result of being in a place they had no business being for far too long.

Yeah, when I stay in a place for a long time, I totally get the desire to kill everyone around me too. The difference is that I don't act on it, because I am not a slave to my base desires. Treating the Qunari as not responsible for their actions in this would be to treat them as animals, not people.

Isabela stole the book, did she not? The entire series of events was set in motion by her actions... her unwillingness to act in spite of this gives her more responsibility, and therefore more guilt, than those who are simply reacting to the situation. Those who had no hand in bringing it about.

Correlation is not causation. She had a part in it, yes. She brought the Qunari to Kirkwall. But that doesn't mean that it's her fault that the Qunari attacked anyone, unless you believe the Qunari aren't capable of controlling their own actions.

I'll say it once more: Isabela, who you just said would be the only one who would understand the significance of the Arishok's words, had a better understanding of the situation than almost anyone else involved.

Sure she would, if she had heard them. But she didn't, because she wasn't there.

I say almost because my version of Hawke figured out what was going on fairly quickly, but of course, our options to influence the story are limited. Given that knowledge, and the knowledge of rising racial tensions that may or may not escalate to open war, she ran off with the Tome at the very point in time when she had a chance to prevent what WAS in fact, an obvious conflict.

The obvious conflict that was not obvious to people who had far more knowledge of the situation? You're using metagame information and applying it to a character who did not have it. That's not reasonable or fair.

The Qunari are, after all, known for starting wars that all of Thedas can't win even when working in concert. Remember how the Viscount was wetting himself at the very thought of war with them for the entire Act? Yeah, that's because everyone knew something bad was coming, and then the person who brought them there in the first place steals the book that might prevent a war from starting. Very responsible behavior and in no way the cause of thousands of deaths. Right.

Once again, you're conflating the Qunari with mindless animals. They're people. Isabela isn't the one doing the stabbing, the Qunari are. Why do they get less culpability for stabbing people than Isabela?

If you want to give Isabela a complete pass, that's your business. The evidence isn't really in favor of your argument though.

*ahem*

hoorayforicecream wrote...

I never said that Isabela is blameless.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Blaming someone for being selfish is very, very different than blaming someone for being the cause of a massive battle. I don't disagree that Isabela's selfish. I don't think she's particularly heroic. But that doesn't mean it's all/mostly her fault that the Qunari attacked, or that she deserves to be given to the Qunari. It just means she's not a particularly generous or heroic person.

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Is there some amount of liability with Isabela? Sure. She led them there. But she's not responsible for what they do or whom they kill. As living, breathing, thinking creatures, they are responsible for what they do and whom they kill.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 02 juillet 2011 - 07:00 .

[Icy Magebane]

@horrayforicecream - First of all, if you understand the Qun, then you know that their laws do not take into account freedom of choice. There is the Qun and nothing more. So whereas you see mindless animals, I see ironclad conviction and purpose. Don't try to apply philosophies and moral systems to a religion that doesn't view the world in that way. Is it obvious to everyone in Thedas that the Qunari have customs and protocols that they do not deviate from? Perhaps not, but there is more than enough information available to even the lowliest commoner that suggests that Qunari do not make decisions in the Thedan sense. Comparing them to mindless beasts for acting in accordance with laws and culture seems derogatory. And this assertion that "people" must act a certain way is equally ludicrous.

Oh, and thanks for accusing me of metagaming, although I don't see how that's possible on a first run with no strategy guide. The evidence of a coming conflict was there and I don't understand how it could have been missed.

You can bring up all the quotes you want, but you are unwilling to attribute blame to Isabela for even a single death, and that is unreasonable IMO. Her selfishness is what caused the attack, or at the very least, had she acted altruistically, there was at least some chance of preventing the Qunari from attacking.

If you were honorable (in the Qunari sense), then the Arishok mentions how out of the entire city, Hawke is the only one who "understands." Perhaps if a second person "understood" as well, and acted honorably, he might have seen Kirkwall differently? That even in a sea of confusion, there are exceptions to the rule that would have redeemed the city in his eyes? We can't know that for certain, but the possibility exists. Unfortunately, Isabela's actions robbed us of any opportunity for peaceful resolution...

bah... edited for poor grammar...

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 02 juillet 2011 - 07:15 .

[hoorayforicecream]

Icy Magebane wrote...

@horrayforicecream - First of all, if you understand the Qun, then you know that their laws do not take into account freedom of choice. There is the Qun and nothing more. So whereas you see mindless animals, I see ironclad conviction and purpose. Don't try to apply philosophies and moral systems to a religion that doesn't view the world in that way. Is it obvious to everyone in Thedas that the Qunari have customs and protocols that they do not deviate from? Perhaps not, but there is more than enough information available to even the lowliest commoner that suggests that Qunari do not make decisions in the Thedan sense. Comparing them to mindless beasts for acting in accordance with laws and culture seems derogatory. And this assertion that "people" must act a certain way is equally ludicrous.

Then you're just absolving the Qunari from any wrongdoing, and that's your prerogative. I don't think "the Qun made me do it" is a reasonable justification for the charge of murder, but maybe you do. If that's the case, we're going to have to agree to disagree.

Oh, and thanks for accusing me of metagaming, although I don't see how that's possible on a first run with no strategy guide. The evidence of a coming conflict was there and I don't understand how it could have been missed.

Isabela was not at any of the conversations where the Arishok talked about what he would do, and why he was there, yet you expect her to know these things somehow. You're equating what you see and understand to what she should see and understand, despite her not seeing and understanding the things you see and understand. If that's not metagaming, what is it?

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 02 juillet 2011 - 07:32 .

[FieryDove]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Isabela was not at any of the conversations where the Arishok talked about what he would do, and why he was there, yet you expect her to know these things somehow. You're equating what you see and understand to what she should see and understand, despite her not seeing and understanding the things you see and understand. If that's not metagaming, what is it?

Isabela is the biggest snoop in the game, of course she knows what is going on. The companions do seem to know what's going on with other companions/Hawke/quests even when they are not present.

[hoorayforicecream]

FieryDove wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Isabela was not at any of the conversations where the Arishok talked about what he would do, and why he was there, yet you expect her to know these things somehow. You're equating what you see and understand to what she should see and understand, despite her not seeing and understanding the things you see and understand. If that's not metagaming, what is it?

Isabela is the biggest snoop in the game, of course she knows what is going on. The companions do seem to know what's going on with other companions/Hawke/quests even when they are not present.

Really? The only thing I ever remember her snooping about is Hawke's love life. Do you have other examples of Isabela being a snoop?

[sphinxess]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Isabela was not at any of the conversations where the Arishok talked about what he would do, and why he was there, yet you expect her to know these things somehow. You're equating what you see and understand to what she should see and understand, despite her not seeing and understanding the things you see and understand. If that's not metagaming, what is it?

Isabela is the biggest snoop in the game, of course she knows what is going on. The companions do seem to know what's going on with other companions/Hawke/quests even when they are not present.

Really? The only thing I ever remember her snooping about is Hawke's love life. Do you have other examples of Isabela being a snoop?

I only thing I see was Isabela thinks the Arishok can identify her as the captain of the ship he attacked so isn't about to enter the compound. He failed his mission he ought to go home - in fact thats what he tells the Viscount that hes waiting on a ship.