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Giving Isabela to the Arishok (Act II spoilers)


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#126
FieryDove

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

Really? The only thing I ever remember her snooping about is Hawke's love life. Do you have other examples of Isabela being a snoop?


Click on everything in your house. I have had several hawke's comment about her snoopiness clicking on the lothering chest, plus she is into everything. She leaves different messages on a desk off the main room. She messes with your journal (after she read it all I'm sure). She is also rifling through your papers when she appears at your house for the act 3 quest.

#127
whykikyouwhy

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FieryDove wrote...

Click on everything in your house. I have had several hawke's comment about her snoopiness clicking on the lothering chest, plus she is into everything. She leaves different messages on a desk off the main room. She messes with your journal (after she read it all I'm sure). She is also rifling through your papers when she appears at your house for the act 3 quest.

When my friends come to my house, they peruse my bookshelf, my DVDs, the contents of my fridge. Those are freedoms afforded to them by being my friends. That doesn't make them snoops.

Isabela clearly has a different set of boundaries, and may take some freedoms to the extreme. Some people are like that - no big deal if that is what you know to expect.

Rifling through your papers...yes, she was at the desk. But maybe a cool catalog came in the mail, and she was picking out a new set of daggers or a billowy tunic. Catalogs are fair game. Image IPB

#128
FieryDove

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whykikyouwhy wrote...

When my friends come to my house, they peruse my bookshelf, my DVDs, the contents of my fridge. Those are freedoms afforded to them by being my friends. That doesn't make them snoops.

Isabela clearly has a different set of boundaries, and may take some freedoms to the extreme. Some people are like that - no big deal if that is what you know to expect.

Rifling through your papers...yes, she was at the desk. But maybe a cool catalog came in the mail, and she was picking out a new set of daggers or a billowy tunic. Catalogs are fair game. Image IPB


Oh I agree...someone said it best the Hawke estate is the companions club/hangout and that's fine with me.

I just know that the companions seem to know what is going on with other companions/Hawke/quests without being present. Or maybe its all Varric's fault, he is a tiny gossip. Image IPB

#129
whykikyouwhy

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They all gather at the Hanged Man for drinks. They adventure together, visit the sites of Kirkwall together, go to feast day celebrations together, etc. There's a whole lot of off-camera conversation that has gone on over the 7+ years that they have known each other. People talk. And, back to the Hanged Man reference, people talk a lot when they imbibe. More than likely they all share a bit much. That's the friendship talking. I don't know that any one of them is a "snoop" per se.

If anything, Varric may just be writing it all down.

#130
Urazz

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TobiTobsen wrote...

Giving Isabela to the Arishok, without knowing that she will escape, means sending her to forced labour, indoctrination and possibly condemn her to a life as qamek, a mindless worker, because she probably wouldn't accept the Qun.

I would never do that. Especially not after the Arishok told us before the attack on Kirkwall that human laws don't apply to him. So why should Qunari law apply to humans?

Exactly, if anything, the fact that the Arishok wasn't willing to listen to human laws regarding the elves that 'converted' didn't make me inclined to care about his laws either, especially when it wasn't in Qunari lands when Isabela stole the tome.  Also, didn't Isabela steal the tome from Orlais before they could give it to the Qunari?  If that's the case, then that just means that Isabela just broke human laws and stole from humans instead of actually stealing from the Qunari.

#131
dragonflight288

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I have never given Isabella to the Qunari, and in every one of my playthroughs she has always come back with the tome and handed it to the Arishok.

Is she selfish? Heck yeah. Is she a hero? She has the potential to develop into a heroic figure by Act 3.

Isabella: When you look for me, it'll be at your side.

Is she responsible for the Arishok's actions? I say she's far less responsible than Sister/Mother Petrice and Ser Varnell.

#132
FieryDove

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dragonflight288 wrote...

Is she responsible for the Arishok's actions? I say she's far less responsible than Sister/Mother Petrice and Ser Varnell.


Would we even have met Petrice/Varnell if Isabela had not stolen the book and came to Kirkwall in the first place?

Its sorta an evil circle/catch 22 maybe?

#133
GodWood

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In my first (and so far only) playthrough I gave her up to the Qunari.

#134
Eudaemonium

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In my first (and so far only) playthrough she didn't even come back!

#135
Vinix Tea

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Eudaemonium wrote...

In my first (and so far only) playthrough she didn't even come back!



This happens when you don't have enough friendship with her to have the "Isabela's got your back" attribute. ^^; This has happened to me several times, and it sucks. xD Especially when I think I have enough, but don't have the attribute anyway, even though it's not difficult to get. :/

#136
whykikyouwhy

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Vinix Tea wrote...

Eudaemonium wrote...

In my first (and so far only) playthrough she didn't even come back!



This happens when you don't have enough friendship with her to have the "Isabela's got your back" attribute. ^^; This has happened to me several times, and it sucks. xD Especially when I think I have enough, but don't have the attribute anyway, even though it's not difficult to get. :/

The formula is easy, really. Buy a girl dinner...buy a girl a drink...give a girl a ship in a bottle....give her some chocolates...do her quests...do her laundry...do her...talk about dreams...talk to her after sex... etc. Yeah.

But having her return, with that swagger, is really a triumphant moment. Image IPB

#137
legbamel

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hoorayforicecream wrote...

FieryDove wrote...
I think she said about the relic:

I stole it from them, they followed me here to reclaim it, that's why they are still in Kirkwall. They can't leave the free marches without it.

Yes?

Maybe she did not intend to start a war but...she did. Most of my characters with any sense would turn her over in a heartbeat, sadly most of my characters don't have any sense.

Saying Isabela caused the Qunari conflict would be the equivalent of saying the Qunari have no sense of free will. She might have chosen to bring the Qunari to Kirkwall, but the QUNARI chose to kill everyone.

The Qunari chose to come to Kirkwall.
The Qunari chose to not do anything for 4 years.
The Qunari chose to attack the city after 4 years over an incident that had nothing to do with the tome of koslun.

Is there some amount of liability with Isabela? Sure. She led them there. But she's not responsible for what they do or whom they kill. As living, breathing, thinking creatures, they are responsible for what they do and whom they kill.

Yes, the Qunari are responsible for their own actions but they're zealots whose most holy relic has been stolen.  And the woman who had it last spends four years lying to her friends about it...the same friends who find swatches of cloth, finger bones, bottles of booze, and belt buckles all over the Free Marches and return them to their rightful owners.  Hawke regularly deals with merchants and shady characters that could well have been able to give them a lead.

And it isn't true that the Qunari aren't doing anything.  That was the whole point of the poison gas escapade: they were attempting to draw her out in tempting her with something they presumed she would steal because it was (relatively) common knowledge that the recipe was powerful, sought-after, and thus valuable.  They weren't just sitting there hoping the stupid book would magically appear on their doorstep with a little "sorry" note on it.

IIRC, the Arishok asks you for the tome before he signals the attack.  When you tell him it's gone, that's when he goes on his tirade and decides to subdue the chaos.  And the fact that he knows enough to ask you about it means that he's definitely got his own spy network on it, though how Qunari have all of this knowledge of the goings-on in Kirkwall I still don't understand.  One would think the horns would be noticed listening to Petrice's bile in the Chantry, for instance.

That said, I only turned her over once...for science.  :wizard:

Modifié par legbamel, 03 juillet 2011 - 03:37 .


#138
Vit246

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Actually, the poison gas was purely a trap decoy for the dwarf Javaris to steal. The Qunari were just protecting their gunpowder. It had nothing to do with Isabela. The elves who stole it had no idea that it was poison gas, and not gunpowder.

#139
legbamel

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Vit246 wrote...
Actually, the poison gas was purely a trap decoy for the dwarf Javaris to steal. The Qunari were just protecting their gunpowder. It had nothing to do with Isabela. The elves who stole it had no idea that it was poison gas, and not gunpowder.

The weren't supposed to know that it was poison gas.  But why would the Qunari want to trap Jevaris when he hadn't tried to steal from them before?  I got the impression from the Arishok's words that they were setting a trap to capture the thief whose fault it was that they were still in Kirkwall, though we didn't know it was Isabela at that point.

#140
Vit246

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Well of course they were not suppose to know that it was poison gas designed to affect non-Qunari. The Qunari know that their gunpowder is extremely valuable, so they set up a decoy for anyone who wants to steal it, especially Javaris. Considering the lengths he went through to gain a audience to bargain for it, the arishok knows how badly the dwarf wants the gunpowder. That's all there is to it. There is no way that the Qunari would think that their trap would actually capture the thief of the tome, except by sheer dumb luck. They didn't even know the identity of the thief. Or did they? I don't remember exactly.

#141
Plaintiff

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legbamel wrote...

Vit246 wrote...
Actually, the poison gas was purely a trap decoy for the dwarf Javaris to steal. The Qunari were just protecting their gunpowder. It had nothing to do with Isabela. The elves who stole it had no idea that it was poison gas, and not gunpowder.

The weren't supposed to know that it was poison gas.  But why would the Qunari want to trap Jevaris when he hadn't tried to steal from them before?  I got the impression from the Arishok's words that they were setting a trap to capture the thief whose fault it was that they were still in Kirkwall, though we didn't know it was Isabela at that point.

Whoever wanted the Tome of Koslun either already has it or at the very least, is aware that the Qunari don't have it, so they have no reason to try to sneak into the Qunari camp. However, what the Qunari do know is that people in Kirkwall (and Javaris the dwarf in particular) are interested in the secret formula for their blackpowder.

Why they set up a trap in the first place is what I want to know. They could've easily made up a dummy formula that does nothing but instead they let go of the secret to a toxic gas that would drive the thieves insane, knowing that it would likely kill hundreds of people. They either wanted to wipe out Kirkwall or were at least indifferent, so why warn Hawke? Some elaborate test of character? What the hell for?

Modifié par Plaintiff, 04 juillet 2011 - 02:53 .


#142
TEWR

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legbamel wrote...

Vit246 wrote...
Actually, the poison gas was purely a trap decoy for the dwarf Javaris to steal. The Qunari were just protecting their gunpowder. It had nothing to do with Isabela. The elves who stole it had no idea that it was poison gas, and not gunpowder.

The weren't supposed to know that it was poison gas.  But why would the Qunari want to trap Jevaris when he hadn't tried to steal from them before?  I got the impression from the Arishok's words that they were setting a trap to capture the thief whose fault it was that they were still in Kirkwall, though we didn't know it was Isabela at that point.


Because many other people had petitioned the Arishok for the gunpowder and the Arishok said no. But Javaris was the only person who kept trying to get it after the Arishok refused. Javaris didn't give up in the past, so the Arishok thought he'd try again.


That's what he tells you.

#143
dragonflight288

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And as for why they use poison gas instead of a powder that does nothing, it's a military strategy. That gas doesn't affect Qunari at all, and it makes their enemies who breathe it fighting themselves. The more dangerous their opponents, the deadlier they become to their own side.

All the Qunari did was pretend they were guarding the formula for the gunpowder. Anyone who would attack and try to kill the Qunari guarding have already proven they aren't friendly.

#144
Wereparrot

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whykikyouwhy wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

Click on everything in your house. I have had several hawke's comment about her snoopiness clicking on the lothering chest, plus she is into everything. She leaves different messages on a desk off the main room. She messes with your journal (after she read it all I'm sure). She is also rifling through your papers when she appears at your house for the act 3 quest.

When my friends come to my house, they peruse my bookshelf, my DVDs, the contents of my fridge. Those are freedoms afforded to them by being my friends. That doesn't make them snoops.

Isabela clearly has a different set of boundaries, and may take some freedoms to the extreme. Some people are like that - no big deal if that is what you know to expect.

Rifling through your papers...yes, she was at the desk. But maybe a cool catalog came in the mail, and she was picking out a new set of daggers or a billowy tunic. Catalogs are fair game. Image IPB


I would take issue with the boundaries Isabela sets herself; therefore it makes her a snoop, and if she never returns after she betrays you, then she was never a friend to be afforded such freedom as to touch Hawke's personal effects, let alone to scrawl vulgar messages and images on the furniture.

#145
legbamel

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

legbamel wrote...

Vit246 wrote...
Actually, the poison gas was purely a trap decoy for the dwarf Javaris to steal. The Qunari were just protecting their gunpowder. It had nothing to do with Isabela. The elves who stole it had no idea that it was poison gas, and not gunpowder.

The weren't supposed to know that it was poison gas.  But why would the Qunari want to trap Jevaris when he hadn't tried to steal from them before?  I got the impression from the Arishok's words that they were setting a trap to capture the thief whose fault it was that they were still in Kirkwall, though we didn't know it was Isabela at that point.

Because many other people had petitioned the Arishok for the gunpowder and the Arishok said no. But Javaris was the only person who kept trying to get it after the Arishok refused. Javaris didn't give up in the past, so the Arishok thought he'd try again.

That's what he tells you.

Apparently I've misread the scene, then.  I still don't see why the hell he would think that Jevaris, who tried to fulfill his end of a deal that never existed would then break in to their compound, but I can see that others might.  I'm going to have to look up the dialogue.  I could have sworn we were talking about why they were still in Kirkwall but perhaps I missed a subject change cue along the way.

#146
whykikyouwhy

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Wereparrot wrote...
I would take issue with the boundaries Isabela sets herself; therefore it makes her a snoop, and if she never returns after she betrays you, then she was never a friend to be afforded such freedom as to touch Hawke's personal effects, let alone to scrawl vulgar messages and images on the furniture.


Boundaries will vary from person to person. I'm wasn't saying that it's wrong to regard Isabela as a snoop - I was just pointing out that the freedoms allowed to people you know shift based on your personality and based on the friend/acquiantance. People in my office talk about all manner of things, from their kids to their health issues, whereas I don't want to discuss my nooks and crannies with cubemates. Just my personal boundary there.

The graffiti Isabela leaves around the house - well, yes, that is defacing, though it amused me greatly. It's just an added hue to her personality. That aspect, and my enjoyment of how fleshed out (no pun intended) she was as a character, made her a very realisitc figure. But as I said ealier, I don't know that she is more the snoop than anyone else. She's just seen poking through papers. Clearly Anders is stuffing his manifesto everywhere on the bookshelf. And walking around Kirkwall, there is all sorts of banter that indicates everyone knows everyone else's business. How they came about that information is unknown - was it all hearsay, rumor, drunken chats at the Hanged Man, or a casually opened drawer when they were visiting the Estate?

But...just my opinion.

As for whether or not she returns at the end of Act 2, yes that is influenced by your friendship/rival level. But that is very much realistic - if you are friends with someone and they come to know you, trust you, believe in you and what you have done for them, they are more willing to back you up in all sorts of matters. If they don't feel that way toward you - have reason to doubt you, or doubt themselves, then they may not be there in a pinch. It's by building up that friend/rival level that deepens Hawke's relationship with Isabela and marks Hawke as someone who will not abjectly turn on her or demand something of her (things that she is opposed to and uneasy with), therefore giving her cause to return. If Hawke doesn't support her in her quests or help her out, she may view Hawke as just every other person in her life. The relationship with Hawke (romantic or plutonic) helps develop Isabela.

Again...just my take. Image IPB

#147
TheAwesomologist

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I handed over Isabella in one play through. It was very disappointing. There are only a couple of mentions of it in Act 3, so besides not having Isabella in your party and missing her quests it really isn't worth it.
Worse still if you hand over Fenris to Denarius. Besides whatever objections you get from your companions (except for Anders who likes the idea) no one will ever mention it again as far as I can tell.
I wish I could turn in Anders in Act 3.

#148
hoorayforicecream

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legbamel wrote...

Yes, the Qunari are responsible for their own actions but they're zealots whose most holy relic has been stolen.  And the woman who had it last spends four years lying to her friends about it...the same friends who find swatches of cloth, finger bones, bottles of booze, and belt buckles all over the Free Marches and return them to their rightful owners.  Hawke regularly deals with merchants and shady characters that could well have been able to give them a lead.


Being zealots does not excuse their behavior, nor should it. They were able to refrain from stabbing people for four years, why couldn't they refrain a while longer?

Isabela had been looking for the relic the whole time, and Hawke knew about it. She wasn't hiding that fact from Hawke at all. At the beginning of act 2, they have this little exchange:

I've been following a lead. I'm so close, I can taste it!
Isn't that what you said last time?
Oh! You mean when I went digging for that stash?
Yes, that turned out to contain several badly written poems and an old boot.
It could've contained the relic!


I don't deny she lied to her friends about the nature of the relic, but she was hardly secretive about searching for it, or the results of her searches. At the time it didn't seem like it was hurting anything - the Qunari were simply keeping to themselves. They were searching for the tome on their own and, more importantly, they weren't stabbing lots of people while doing it.

And it isn't true that the Qunari aren't doing anything.  That was the whole point of the poison gas escapade: they were attempting to draw her out in tempting her with something they presumed she would steal because it was (relatively) common knowledge that the recipe was powerful, sought-after, and thus valuable.  They weren't just sitting there hoping the stupid book would magically appear on their doorstep with a little "sorry" note on it.


I think you misunderstood when I say 'not doing anything'. I did not intend to imply that the Qunari were idle those four years. When I said 'not doing anything', what I meant was 'not invading Kirkwall and killing lots of people'. The Qunari went for four years without invading Kirkwall while looking for the tome. There was no real evidence to indicate that they were about to start stabbing when they did.

IIRC, the Arishok asks you for the tome before he signals the attack.  When you tell him it's gone, that's when he goes on his tirade and decides to subdue the chaos.  And the fact that he knows enough to ask you about it means that he's definitely got his own spy network on it, though how Qunari have all of this knowledge of the goings-on in Kirkwall I still don't understand.  One would think the horns would be noticed listening to Petrice's bile in the Chantry, for instance.


But even if you know about the tome (e.g. never got Isabela), it doesn't matter, because he *still* attacks the city. The reason he attacks the city isn't because he wants the tome back, it's because he can't stand it anymore. Otherwise, he would have demanded the book from everyone, rather than just kill the Viscount and complain about the people before he killed them.

It isn't like the tome was squirreled away in some ancient tomb that was untouched by man for four years. Somebody had the thing. It had to get from the shipwreck into Walleyed Sam's possession somehow, and both Isabela and the Qunari were looking for it. There were rumors that had kept Isabela busy looking for it for at least three years. It's entirely possible that she (or they) had other 'near misses' with the tome before as well. The only thing special about the one we saw in gameplay was that it ended up being near the time the straw broke the camel's back.

#149
mousafiriain

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The only reason this decision is morally difficult is because isabela actually chooses to come back for your sake. If we had to chase after her to recover the book I think the "just" choice would be clear.

It always seemed obvious to me that despite it's excesses (necessary harshness in a world like this?) the qun is the only force actually improving people's lives in Thedas. A little bit of light piercing the medieval darkness of the rest of the world. If you had to live anywhere in Thedas as an average joe where would you choose, lowtown kirkwall ? tevinter? or the qunari lands? No contest really. The chantry is a caricature of the worst elements of the middle-ages catholic church, whereas the qun draws from elements of Buddhist/Confucian/Socialist/Islamic thought, all of which i "believe in" to a greater or lesser extent IRL, which probably colors my view.

So yeah, send that thieving, selfish pirate to face the music. At least the benhassrath will give her a fairer deal than any other "court" in the land.

Modifié par mousafiriain, 06 juillet 2011 - 01:40 .


#150
dewayne31

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My thought on the Aristok is he basically declared war on kirkwall killed the vizcount. plus who how many others died on his orders. he should of took his book and left. instead he makes a further demand. he met my blade.