3223 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

SalsaDMA wrote...
Personally I feel the rpg companies are starting to loose the touch with rpgs in their effort to satisfy suits demanding CoD players into their sales figures... As things are looking, I seriously doubt we'll be getting any good rpgs from any of the major developers because of how corporate business ends up working when enough suits gets attached to a company. Just like I'm still waiting for a really good spacesim shooter to take the reins up from Freespace and Freespace2.

Bioware and Bestheda drove the chage against so called traditional RPG mechanics. I don't think it really makes sense to say that they lost touch. 

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...

How come we spend so much time discussing the marketing?

The same reason we spend so much time debating what the upgrade system in ME2 did and whether it was progression, or how the XP mission complete screen is anti-RPG. 

Because, at least on this forum, something is the right kind of game if it's presented the right kind of way. We undervalue under-the-hood, and overvalue presentation and flash. 

[Mecha Tengu]

Bioware isn't too different from any other game company really.

the gaming industry is just so large and stupid, whereas a decade ago it was an elitist hobby with a small community. Now we have older people, children, and "girl gamers" wanting to be part of the community that is so easily accessible.

Now it's become a culture of it's own. The past years have seen nothing but dumbing down and steamlining for the masses. My 15 year old cousin, a self purported CoD pubstar, cannot finish through 1/3 of Half Life because the puzzles were too confusing for him. Especially the shooter genre, which has gone a LONG way.

Trading away great story telling, health bars, unique gameplay, and complicated mechanics for the sake of making the game more user friendly. Who likes needlessly complicated for the sake of needlessly complicated?

I hate casual gamers. No I am not a neckbeard fat virgin, but I really hate casual gamers.

In oldschool adventure games, if you missed a key in the first 2 hours of the game, later on in the game you would be stuck in a jail cell with no way out unless you are in possession of the key. RPGs have gone a long way from that, and I can accept that progress is good.

But please don't screw this one up

Aren't your Games rated M Bioware? not T?

[Someone With Mass]

I can't care less as long as I'm entertained by the game I'm playing.

[littlezack]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

Bioware isn't too different from any other game company really.

the gaming industry is just so large and stupid, whereas a decade ago it was an elitist hobby with a small community. Now we have older people, children, and "girl gamers" wanting to be part of the community that is so easily accessible.

Dude, gaming hasn't  been an 'elitist hobby'' since the NES dropped.

And a game's difficulty has nothing to do with its maturity rating.

Modifié par littlezack, 17 juillet 2011 - 12:05 .

[translucentwolf]

I wish that Bioware would have another game setting, along the line of 'casual - insane', but for the rpg elements. For those playing the 'Casual' setting, weapons and armor would be run along the lines of ME 2, with minimal customization, and simple group based upgrades. For those playing the other end of the rpg elements scale, each character would be editable, along the lines of ME 1, or further.

That would let those who want to fiddle with what mods team member x has on her armor, while letting the casual gamer simply add +5% sheilds to the whole team.

Modifié par translucentwolf, 17 juillet 2011 - 12:05 .

[100k]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

Bioware isn't too different from any other game company really.

the gaming industry is just so large and stupid, whereas a decade ago it was an elitist hobby with a small community. Now we have older people, children, and "girl gamers" wanting to be part of the community that is so easily accessible.

Now it's become a culture of it's own. The past years have seen nothing but dumbing down and steamlining for the masses. My 15 year old cousin, a self purported CoD pubstar, cannot finish through 1/3 of Half Life because the puzzles were too confusing for him. Especially the shooter genre, which has gone a LONG way.

Trading away great story telling, health bars, unique gameplay, and complicated mechanics for the sake of making the game more user friendly. Who likes needlessly complicated for the sake of needlessly complicated?

I hate casual gamers. No I am not a neckbeard fat virgin, but I really hate casual gamers.

In oldschool adventure games, if you missed a key in the first 2 hours of the game, later on in the game you would be stuck in a jail cell with no way out unless you are in possession of the key. RPGs have gone a long way from that, and I can accept that progress is good.

But please don't screw this one up

Aren't your Games rated M Bioware? not T?

Hey, I'm with you, buddy. But in my opinion, this generation of "casual gamers" didn't start until 2007 when COD4 came out and utterly changed the face of the entire market.

There have always been games out there to really grab fans and addict new comers. GTA, WoW, and Halo are famous for that. But COD4 (which was genuinely a well made game IMO) made every producer in the industry jealous.

It's simple. It's brutal. It's easy. It's highly accessible. It's incredibly user friendly. And it's popularity was through the roof.

Hell, I'm betting that if COD4 wasn't made, we would have roughly 77% of the gamers we have now. But I don't blame COD4. I blame COD5, because THAT game is what made every developer out there be under the pressure of their producers to make "social shooters". And it did it without changing a thing for the better.

The skill you aquired in COD4 became useless when some noob halfway across the map could bomb you with a predator missile strike--crushing your hard earned kill-streaks into dust. Killing became not a reward, but a curse, when the dumb@sses you're gunning down eventually got REWARDED for dying.

I dunno. I think that shooters will eventually go down in popularity, but not before the market is even more flooded with them than it already is. 

[100k]

Hell, while it's wonderful that, according to the court's ruling, Gaming is considered an art form -- it's also a HUGE curse for developers. Because gaming is now "art", censorship of M games will no longer matter. Example: Despite the fact that an 11 year old can't go into an R rated movie in theaters, that 11 year old can walk into Target, and purchase that same R rated movie without any problem.

Well...the same thing's happened with M gaming, except that there is not movie theater to block the cash flow from 11 year olds. It's all retail. An 11 year old can now go into Target, buy the next M rated DOA Volleyball game (while the clerk gives them a raised eyebrow), and walk out of the store with it, because gaming is protected under the first amendment.

-THEREFORE-

For the next 5 years, look forward to seeing the shooter market explode with an entire new audience capable of purchasing it. And unlike older kids and adults, these youngsters aren't going to be concerned with reviews, scores, or warnings about a game. If the cover has a space marine crushing an alien's head into the dirt, the youngster will immediately think of his Saturday morning cartoon shows, and how much cooler it will be to play as a space marine. Cha-ch$ng!

[littlezack]

100k wrote...

Hell, while it's wonderful that, according to the court's ruling, Gaming is considered an art form -- it's also a HUGE curse for developers. Because gaming is now "art", censorship of M games will no longer matter. Example: Despite the fact that an 11 year old can't go into an R rated movie in theaters, that 11 year old can walk into Target, and purchase that same R rated movie without any problem.

Well...the same thing's happened with M gaming, except that there is not movie theater to block the cash flow from 11 year olds. It's all retail. An 11 year old can now go into Target, buy the next M rated DOA Volleyball game (while the clerk gives them a raised eyebrow), and walk out of the store with it, because gaming is protected under the first amendment.

-THEREFORE-

For the next 5 years, look forward to seeing the shooter market explode with an entire new audience capable of purchasing it. And unlike older kids and adults, these youngsters aren't going to be concerned with reviews, scores, or warnings about a game. If the cover has a space marine crushing an alien's head into the dirt, the youngster will immediately think of his Saturday morning cartoon shows, and how much cooler it will be to play as a space marine. Cha-ch$ng!

First off, I don't think cartoons actually come on Saturday morning anymore. Not like they used to, anyway. And if there are, I sincerely doubt that any of them depict marines killing aliens.

Secondly, those certain states and areas and stores do have rules about selling games to minors, very few of them ever actually enforced said rules. If you were under 18 and you wanted an M gamw, it was just a matter of going to the right place to get it, and you probably wouldn't have to look that hard. Very few places ever actually carded kids for games.

[Bnol]

100k wrote...

Hell, while it's wonderful that, according to the court's ruling, Gaming is considered an art form -- it's also a HUGE curse for developers. Because gaming is now "art", censorship of M games will no longer matter. Example: Despite the fact that an 11 year old can't go into an R rated movie in theaters, that 11 year old can walk into Target, and purchase that same R rated movie without any problem.

Well...the same thing's happened with M gaming, except that there is not movie theater to block the cash flow from 11 year olds. It's all retail. An 11 year old can now go into Target, buy the next M rated DOA Volleyball game (while the clerk gives them a raised eyebrow), and walk out of the store with it, because gaming is protected under the first amendment.

-THEREFORE-

For the next 5 years, look forward to seeing the shooter market explode with an entire new audience capable of purchasing it. And unlike older kids and adults, these youngsters aren't going to be concerned with reviews, scores, or warnings about a game. If the cover has a space marine crushing an alien's head into the dirt, the youngster will immediately think of his Saturday morning cartoon shows, and how much cooler it will be to play as a space marine. Cha-ch$ng!

You do know that it is the theatres deciding to not admit those under 17 to NC-17 movies or R movies without parents accompanying.  I went to plenty of movie theatres that didn't care/ID for movies and others that did.  The MPAA is not a government agency, the theatres are just on a contractual agreement.  Target can still decide to follow the ESRB and not sell to minors "M" rated games.  Walmart already takes a stance in terms of what is sold in their store.  The Supreme Court case only had to do with what the government, and not private entities could do.

Modifié par Bnol, 17 juillet 2011 - 12:35 .

[100k]

littlezack wrote...

100k wrote...

Hell, while it's wonderful that, according to the court's ruling, Gaming is considered an art form -- it's also a HUGE curse for developers. Because gaming is now "art", censorship of M games will no longer matter. Example: Despite the fact that an 11 year old can't go into an R rated movie in theaters, that 11 year old can walk into Target, and purchase that same R rated movie without any problem.

Well...the same thing's happened with M gaming, except that there is not movie theater to block the cash flow from 11 year olds. It's all retail. An 11 year old can now go into Target, buy the next M rated DOA Volleyball game (while the clerk gives them a raised eyebrow), and walk out of the store with it, because gaming is protected under the first amendment.

-THEREFORE-

For the next 5 years, look forward to seeing the shooter market explode with an entire new audience capable of purchasing it. And unlike older kids and adults, these youngsters aren't going to be concerned with reviews, scores, or warnings about a game. If the cover has a space marine crushing an alien's head into the dirt, the youngster will immediately think of his Saturday morning cartoon shows, and how much cooler it will be to play as a space marine. Cha-ch$ng!

First off, I don't think cartoons actually come on Saturday morning anymore. Not like they used to, anyway. And if there are, I sincerely doubt that any of them depict marines killing aliens.

Secondly, those certain states and areas and stores do have rules about selling games to minors, very few of them ever actually enforced said rules. If you were under 18 and you wanted an M gamw, it was just a matter of going to the right place to get it, and you probably wouldn't have to look that hard. Very few places ever actually carded kids for games.

True, but the rule was in place. I remember going into Target at 15, and buying GTA for my PSP. The guy basically asked me my age, and I told him 17. A few years later when I was 18, I remember occasionally being carded at Target for M purchases. The last game I bought (I'm 21, so this was a few months ago) was actually Mass Effect 2 for PS3 (I think, lol). I got carded. Now, youngsters don't have to worry about that at all. Gamecrazy and Gamespot always card me when I buy an M game, but most 11 year olds don't shop at those stores. They'll shop at Walmart, Target, and Best Buy, because they are easy to access, recongnize, and are giant chains.

[JayhartRIC]

Bnol wrote...

100k wrote...

Hell, while it's wonderful that, according to the court's ruling, Gaming is considered an art form -- it's also a HUGE curse for developers. Because gaming is now "art", censorship of M games will no longer matter. Example: Despite the fact that an 11 year old can't go into an R rated movie in theaters, that 11 year old can walk into Target, and purchase that same R rated movie without any problem.

Well...the same thing's happened with M gaming, except that there is not movie theater to block the cash flow from 11 year olds. It's all retail. An 11 year old can now go into Target, buy the next M rated DOA Volleyball game (while the clerk gives them a raised eyebrow), and walk out of the store with it, because gaming is protected under the first amendment.

-THEREFORE-

For the next 5 years, look forward to seeing the shooter market explode with an entire new audience capable of purchasing it. And unlike older kids and adults, these youngsters aren't going to be concerned with reviews, scores, or warnings about a game. If the cover has a space marine crushing an alien's head into the dirt, the youngster will immediately think of his Saturday morning cartoon shows, and how much cooler it will be to play as a space marine. Cha-ch$ng!

You do know that it is the theatres deciding to not admit those under 17 to NC-17 movies or R movies without parents accompanying.  I went to plenty of movie theatres that didn't care/ID for movies and others that did.  The MPAA is not a government agency, the theatres are just on a contractual agreement.  Target can still decide to follow the ESRB and not sell to minors "M" rated games.  Walmart already takes a stance in terms of what is sold in their store.  The Supreme Court case only had to do with what the government, and not private entities could do.

Exactly.  Nothing changed anyway cause the law got shot down.  Kids have always been able to buy mature games.  Most major stores decide to police themselves, and they do a better job than movies according to this survey.
http://gamrfeed.vgch...striction-best/

[100k]

Bnol wrote...You do know that it is the theatres deciding to not admit those under 17 to NC-17 movies or R movies without parents accompanying.  I went to plenty of movie theatres that didn't care/ID for movies and others that did.  The MPAA is not a government agency, the theatres are just on a contractual agreement.  Target can still decide to follow the ESRB and not sell to minors "M" rated games.  Walmart already takes a stance in terms of what is sold in their store.  The Supreme Court case only had to do with what the government, and not private entities could do.

Yes, but Target still wants to make a yearly quota. If the heads of the company want to boost sales in the electronics departments across the country, they can just say "what about these toys kids play with-- video games? Since we don't have to follow ESRB anymore, lets just squeeze out a few more dollars. $60 a purchase isn't something I see a corporation turning down if they don't have to. Especially with Modern Warfare 3 coming up in a few months. 

[didymos1120]

littlezack wrote...

Dude, gaming hasn't  been an 'elitist hobby'' since the NES dropped.

Even before that.  The original 2600 was a huge seller, and then there were the arcades that sprang up all across the land, not to mention the presence of various cabinets in pretty much every restaurant, bowling alley, supermarket and bar.  And most of the marketing when video games first broke presented them as just another kind of toy.

Modifié par didymos1120, 17 juillet 2011 - 12:42 .

[Bnol]

100k wrote...

Bnol wrote...You do know that it is the theatres deciding to not admit those under 17 to NC-17 movies or R movies without parents accompanying.  I went to plenty of movie theatres that didn't care/ID for movies and others that did.  The MPAA is not a government agency, the theatres are just on a contractual agreement.  Target can still decide to follow the ESRB and not sell to minors "M" rated games.  Walmart already takes a stance in terms of what is sold in their store.  The Supreme Court case only had to do with what the government, and not private entities could do.

Yes, but Target still wants to make a yearly quota. If the heads of the company want to boost sales in the electronics departments across the country, they can just say "what about these toys kids play with-- video games? Since we don't have to follow ESRB anymore, lets just squeeze out a few more dollars. $60 a purchase isn't something I see a corporation turning down if they don't have to. Especially with Modern Warfare 3 coming up in a few months. 

They would have to weigh that against the potential parental backlash.  They didn't have to follow the ESRB before the law was passed, and they didn't have to follow the ESRB under the law that was struck down.  The law targeted "deviate violence" not any sort of ESRB rating.  Most jurisdictions didn't even have those types of laws so they wouldn't be affected.

Modifié par Bnol, 17 juillet 2011 - 12:51 .

[littlezack]

 And anybody who's ever played a single session of Halo 3 online will tell you that underage kids buy M games all the time. If anything, they're already one of the biggest audiences.

[100k]

Bnol wrote...

100k wrote...

Bnol wrote...You do know that it is the theatres deciding to not admit those under 17 to NC-17 movies or R movies without parents accompanying.  I went to plenty of movie theatres that didn't care/ID for movies and others that did.  The MPAA is not a government agency, the theatres are just on a contractual agreement.  Target can still decide to follow the ESRB and not sell to minors "M" rated games.  Walmart already takes a stance in terms of what is sold in their store.  The Supreme Court case only had to do with what the government, and not private entities could do.

Yes, but Target still wants to make a yearly quota. If the heads of the company want to boost sales in the electronics departments across the country, they can just say "what about these toys kids play with-- video games? Since we don't have to follow ESRB anymore, lets just squeeze out a few more dollars. $60 a purchase isn't something I see a corporation turning down if they don't have to. Especially with Modern Warfare 3 coming up in a few months. 

They would have to weigh that against the potential parental backlash.  They didn't have to follow the ESRB before the law was passed, and they didn't have to follow the ESRB under the law that was struck down.  The law targeted "deviate violence" not any sort of ESRB rating.  Most jurisdictions didn't even have those types of laws so they wouldn't be affected.

It's been my expierence that parents tend to blame the developers/producers first (like Rockstar Games), and the retailers second. Target might be willing to sell M games if a developer takes most of the fire.

Modifié par 100k, 17 juillet 2011 - 12:58 .

[Bnol]

100k wrote...

Bnol wrote...

100k wrote...

Yes, but Target still wants to make a yearly quota. If the heads of the company want to boost sales in the electronics departments across the country, they can just say "what about these toys kids play with-- video games? Since we don't have to follow ESRB anymore, lets just squeeze out a few more dollars. $60 a purchase isn't something I see a corporation turning down if they don't have to. Especially with Modern Warfare 3 coming up in a few months. 

They would have to weigh that against the potential parental backlash.  They didn't have to follow the ESRB before the law was passed, and they didn't have to follow the ESRB under the law that was struck down.  The law targeted "deviate violence" not any sort of ESRB rating.  Most jurisdictions didn't even have those types of laws so they wouldn't be affected.

It's been my expierence that parents tend to blame the developers/producers first (like Rockstar Games), and the retailers second. Target might be willing to sell M games if a developer takes most of the fire.

They can blame the developers/distributors all they want, they can't really do much economic harm to them other than not buying the game.  But the angry parents can all decide not to shop at Target, which will hurt Target's overall bottom-line, for what selling to the small segment of minors that have the $60 and can hide it from their parents?

Regardless, that ruling will not alter what is being developed. 

Edit: I think I have strayed far enough off the topic of this thread.

Modifié par Bnol, 17 juillet 2011 - 01:09 .

[Gatt9]

In Exile wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...
Personally I feel the rpg companies are starting to loose the touch with rpgs in their effort to satisfy suits demanding CoD players into their sales figures... As things are looking, I seriously doubt we'll be getting any good rpgs from any of the major developers because of how corporate business ends up working when enough suits gets attached to a company. Just like I'm still waiting for a really good spacesim shooter to take the reins up from Freespace and Freespace2.

Bioware and Bestheda drove the chage against so called traditional RPG mechanics. I don't think it really makes sense to say that they lost touch. 

They didn't "Drive the change",  Bethseda's been making the same game with fewer features in it for 15 years.  It's not like they suddenly switched gears,  they just do an EA/NFL thing and release a new version of it every few years,  much like EA/NFL "Now with fewer features" thing as well.

Bioware didn't "Drive the change" either,  releasing a TPS with a story isn't changing RPGs.

It makes alot of sense to say they lost touch.  Look at Bethseda,  every release removes more RPG features,  despite the continual requests for them to be put back in.  You'd think someone there would eventually realize,  "Hey,  we could sell more copies if we quit removing things and put back the stuff that people liked..."

No,  they ban you for it.  Then they ban the websites that express interest in those features.

Look at DA2,  completely ignored DAO owners,  implemented the dialogue wheel in such a way that you could actually play the game without reading,  if that isn't "Lost touch" I don't know what is.

Hey, I'm with you, buddy. But in my opinion, this generation of "casual gamers" didn't start until 2007 when COD4 came out and utterly changed the face of the entire market.

There have always been games out there to really grab fans and addict new comers. GTA, WoW, and Halo are famous for that. But COD4 (which was genuinely a well made game IMO) made every producer in the industry jealous.

It's simple. It's brutal. It's easy. It's highly accessible. It's incredibly user friendly. And it's popularity was through the roof.

Actually,  every few years one of these pops up.

Super Mario Bros,  Sonic the Hedgehog,  Ecco,  M.U.L.E.,  Myst,  Warcraft 2,  Red Alert,  Rollercoaster Tycoon,  Doom,  Half-Life,  Starcraft,  Final Fantasy 7,  Diablo 2,  GTA 3,  Rockstar,  World of Warcraft.

Every few years a game pops up that gets unexpected adoption,  in most cases,  it often heralds the end of a platform.

One of two things happens...

1.  It generates enourmous purchases,  and the market moves on.

2.  It generates enourmous purchases,  most of the market tries to mimic it,  and shortly en-masse the studios go under or the platform caves.

Usually it heralds a platform switch/collapse.  Super Mario/Sonic ended up heralding the collapse of the SNES/Geneis because all that came after were clones.  The combo of Myst,  Rollercoaster Tycoon,  Starcraft heralded the rise of the PSx and modern consoles,  and the fall of the PC Platform.  This likely heralds the end of the modern console generation,  in a *very* big way.

Studios start "Me tooing!" as they are now,  the platform ages,  people get tired of the same game,  sales drop (As they are now),  the platform ends.  This time,  most of the publishers are extremely over-extended,  they can't handle a year of bad sales since most of the carry ridiculously huge debt (Activision being the exception).  Sales will continue to drop,  and we'll see huge bankruptcies,  which will shift gaming back to the PC again.

It's the industry's biggest problem,  as soon as some game sells well,  everyone else tries to copy it and fails.

[JayhartRIC]

100k wrote...

Bnol wrote...You do know that it is the theatres deciding to not admit those under 17 to NC-17 movies or R movies without parents accompanying.  I went to plenty of movie theatres that didn't care/ID for movies and others that did.  The MPAA is not a government agency, the theatres are just on a contractual agreement.  Target can still decide to follow the ESRB and not sell to minors "M" rated games.  Walmart already takes a stance in terms of what is sold in their store.  The Supreme Court case only had to do with what the government, and not private entities could do.

Yes, but Target still wants to make a yearly quota. If the heads of the company want to boost sales in the electronics departments across the country, they can just say "what about these toys kids play with-- video games? Since we don't have to follow ESRB anymore, lets just squeeze out a few more dollars. $60 a purchase isn't something I see a corporation turning down if they don't have to. Especially with Modern Warfare 3 coming up in a few months. 

They never had to follow the ESRB.

[littlezack]

 Usually it heralds a platform switch/collapse.  Super Mario/Sonic ended up heralding the collapse of the SNES/Geneis because all that came after were clones.  

I admit, it's been a while, but I remember both the NES and Genesis doing fine for a long damn while after Sonic and Mario came out. If it was a herald, a was real early one, and it certainly wasn't the only thing that led to the SNES and Genesis eventually dying. Or even the main thing.

Modifié par littlezack, 17 juillet 2011 - 01:18 .

[Il Divo]

Gatt9 wrote...

Look at DA2,  completely ignored DAO owners,  implemented the dialogue wheel in such a way that you could actually play the game without reading,  if that isn't "Lost touch" I don't know what is.

And this wasn't the case for any previous Bioware game? You don't need to read the dialogue to play any Bioware game. You simply won't be aware of your character's motivation/actions.

The dialogue wheel provides tone icons. It's not Bioware's fault if players decide to ignore the words and go for the picture. I couldn't care less if others played the game without reading the paraphrases. I chose to read them.

Modifié par Il Divo, 17 juillet 2011 - 01:19 .

[In Exile]

Gatt9 wrote...
They didn't "Drive the change",  Bethseda's been making the same game with fewer features in it for 15 years.  It's not like they suddenly switched gears,  they just do an EA/NFL thing and release a new version of it every few years,  much like EA/NFL "Now with fewer features" thing as well.

Bioware made KoTOR and called in an RPG. They made JE and called it an action RPG, and they made ME1 and ME2 and (according to your view) called it an RPG. And now people consider them RPGs, and use them of examples of what an RPG should be. 

Bioware didn't "Drive the change" either,  releasing a TPS with a story isn't changing RPGs.

For you. And yet as you can see in this thread and have spent the last 20 (or 30, or 40?) pages arguing, there are plenty of people here who think ME1 and ME2 is an RPG.

It makes alot of sense to say they lost touch.  Look at Bethseda,  every release removes more RPG features,  despite the continual requests for them to be put back in.  You'd think someone there would eventually realize,  "Hey,  we could sell more copies if we quit removing things and put back the stuff that people liked..."

So far, Bestheda has had no problem selling more copies. Neither has Bioware, with the exception of DA2. 

Look at DA2,  completely ignored DAO owners,  implemented the dialogue wheel in such a way that you could actually play the game without reading,  if that isn't "Lost touch" I don't know what is.

You could play DA:O without reading too, since 1 always advances the conversation and 1-3 always capture good-bad. 

[didymos1120]

Gatt9 wrote...

Super Mario/Sonic ended up heralding the collapse of the SNES/Geneis because all that came after were clones.

Umm, Super Mario World was the pack-in title for the SNES at launch. Hardly a "herald of collapse". Sonic was first released in 1991, and the Genesis wasn't discontinued until 1997.  Again, not much of a herald.

[Il Divo]

didymos1120 wrote...

Umm, Super Mario World was the pack-in title for the SNES at launch. Hardly a "herald of collapse". Sonic was first released in 1991, and the Genesis wasn't discontinued until 1997.  Again, not much of a herald.

To be clear, is he referring to Super Mario world specifically? He could simply mean Super Mario as a series.