3223 réponses à ce sujet

[tonnactus]

Lumikki wrote...

Because role-playing isn't about stats, inventories or loot

Nonsense.Without stats,talents and loot its actually hard to make your character unique....

Because how is your character different from another one,if they are able to do the same(talents and stats) ,wear the same and could behave the same way(because persuade didnt exist as a skill anymore).

Or do you really think the face generator and the choice of the gender is enough for this?(and not even the small amount of "big choices" seem to matter)

Modifié par tonnactus, 17 juillet 2011 - 10:27 .

[AlanC9]

Il Divo wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...

Most of those wall safes belonged to innocent people,  not at all involved with the problems,  as did the PDA's.  Shepherd was an unprecedented vulture in modern gaming. 

The wall safes in Omega belonged to innocent people,  not only could you loot them,  in one case in front of the owners,  you then got to take a paragon action of lecturing someone about the evils of looting...right after you just looted 4 apartments.

Looting the migrant fleet's ship?  Looting the factory in Miranda's mission?  Looting the innocent people's belongings in the first real mission and the mission where you meet the collectors?  More than a few other places.

Right now the Alliance really should be hunting Shepherd,  he's a theif easily on the level of Katsumi,  he'll rob you blind right in front of you.

Because no Bioware game has ever let the player loot random locations without consequence? BG? KotOR? Dragon Age?

You forgot NWN, where the OC was infamous for not only having loot lying around in random containers, but for having that loot level up with the PC.

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 juillet 2011 - 10:57 .

[AlanC9]

JKoopman wrote...

So wait, lemme get this straight. We shouldn't have an inventory and loot - standard RPG conventions - in Mass Effect because it's unrealistic for Shepard to run around scavenging equipment from the dead and lugging around an extra suit of armor and a small armory with him on missions, but its perfectly okay for Shepard to break into a house and pilfer someone's life savings right in front of them before going 2 doors down and lecturing some scavengers about the evils of looting because it's a standard RPG convention?

Hypocrisy much?

This is only a problem if Shepard is forced to lecture the looters. I don't want to have to play a hypocrite, but I'd like to have the option available.

[FoxShadowblade]

Pointless loot/Mako/pointless stats = BORING. More sales from having a RPG that doesn't include boring. /thread, thank you, have a nice day.

[luzburg]

looked at me3 news at twitter they are going to show more of the rpg elemets

[Sidney]

tonnactus wrote...

Nonsense.Without stats,talents and loot its actually hard to make your character unique....

Loot doesn't make you unqiue. I know thousands of ads on TV for soda and jeans might make you think your possessions make you unqiue but that's not the case.

Plus, in almost every RPG your stand is a lie. You were wearing the same crap at the end of ME1 I was and using the same guns. Same thing was true at the end of DAO. As long as there is a progression of equipment there will be a limited # of those items and whenh items are class specific well you won't be all that unique.

[SpiffySquee]

tonnactus wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Because role-playing isn't about stats, inventories or loot

Nonsense.Without stats,talents and loot its actually hard to make your character unique....

Because how is your character different from another one,if they are able to do the same(talents and stats) ,wear the same and could behave the same way(because persuade didnt exist as a skill anymore).

Or do you really think the face generator and the choice of the gender is enough for this?(and not even the small amount of "big choices" seem to matter)

Those may help define a character, but they are not what makes them unique, and are not necessary for role playing. Take the clones from the cartoon clone wars. They look the same, have the same basic abilities and equipment, and yet they are all different. Why? Personality. Role playing is about the choices you make, and the way you react to certain situations. Stats and inventory are game mechanics to make the game work. I agree that they can help you role play; i.e. If I want to play a character that is good with biotic, but not with guns, stats can make my shooting horrible. They are not necessary, however as I can role play that my character is horrible with a gun, even if stats say otherwise, just by purposely missing.


What is necessary for role play is the ability to choose how your character acts, what their personality is, how they treat other people, and if and how they grow over the course of the story. Take out every inventory and stat in mass effect and this is still possible.

[AlanC9]

But tonnactus is on to something there nevertheless. CRPGs have traditionally defined characters by loot and stats because they didn't offer meaningful choices, so at least the stuff gave the illusion that you were doing something unique.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

But tonnactus is on to something there nevertheless. CRPGs have traditionally defined characters by loot and stats because they didn't offer meaningful choices, so at least the stuff gave the illusion that you were doing something unique.

Yeah.  Loot doesn't define a character, but it gives the player the tools that can be used to shape the character according to the player's tastes.  Much like a character class.  If you want to play a biotic, you pick a biotic class, rather than a soldier.  IF you want to fight a certain way, you pick this weapon and not that...

[InvincibleHero]

Xewaka wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
RPG doesn't need a single stat to allow you to become someone else.
[...]
Stats and classes are to define what your character cannot do not what they can. That is the only reason for their existence. It is to place limits on the character you created.

So.... Stats are needed to define the character as well.

No because for D&D imaginary characters (PCs and NPCs) it was the basis for the mechanics only. It was not related to the roleplaying at all. Sure you could say having a n 8 strength meant you never tried a lift gate/bend bars roll because you were weak, but the mechanics defined you had little chance anyway. We are Shepard in the ME games regardless of how strong or smart or dextrous he is.

BTW ME has lots of stats we don't see like how much damage this gun does and how push is resolved etc. We don't need to see Shepard has a 20 str and can lift this weight the Cain weighs 30 lbs etc. We can carry and equip it and that's all we really need. BW programs all the limits of Shepard and co.

[AlanC9]

iakus, we should probably be saying "equipment" here, not "loot." "Loot" is equipment that you acquire in a particular way.

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 juillet 2011 - 04:58 .

[AlanC9]

InvincibleHero wrote...
No because for D&D imaginary characters (PCs and NPCs) it was the basis for the mechanics only. It was not related to the roleplaying at all. Sure you could say having a n 8 strength meant you never tried a lift gate/bend bars roll because you were weak, but the mechanics defined you had little chance anyway. We are Shepard in the ME games regardless of how strong or smart or dextrous he is.

And all possible Shepards are in a fairly narrow range of such stats, compared to the general population. A narrow enough range that I don't see how it would have been worth it to bother with explicit stats.

[Merci357]

tonnactus wrote...
Because how is your character different from another one,if they are able to do the same(talents and stats) ,wear the same and could behave the same way(because persuade didnt exist as a skill anymore).

Is it that different in a game with loot?

Often you end up with items that are considered "best in slot", and most will simply wear these items. Of course, gradually improving your equipment is part of the fun. And what you end up wearing, while it differs from class to class, and how you weight certain stats, boils down to very few items. But if you want a unique character, I'd bet the different colour pattern for your ME2 N7 armor offers more in terms of individualisation, compared to the end game item sets and weapons in DA:O. As an example - what else to use besides Starfang in DA:O as a 2H warrior, if you don't deliberately downgrade to a lesser weapon?

Now don't get me wrong, I do like meaningful item choices, and they can only add in my view to a game. (and that's not even necessarily a RPG, just for reference, the item/weapon upgrade systems in Resident Evil 5 or Dead Space 2 offer quite more depth compared to ME2). But in term of making you character unique, I guess anyone - beyond the pure casual player -  will figure out what is best for class X or situation Y, and will wear the very same items, regardless.

[InvincibleHero]

AlanC9 wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
No because for D&D imaginary characters (PCs and NPCs) it was the basis for the mechanics only. It was not related to the roleplaying at all. Sure you could say having a n 8 strength meant you never tried a lift gate/bend bars roll because you were weak, but the mechanics defined you had little chance anyway. We are Shepard in the ME games regardless of how strong or smart or dextrous he is.

And all possible Shepards are in a fairly narrow range of such stats, compared to the general population. A narrow enough range that I don't see how it would have been worth it to bother with explicit stats.

Yeah but Shepard is pre-defined in many ways. It is supposed to be the same Shepard for everyone just male and female differ though probbaly would have same stats anyway. They could give us the stats but they would all be canon BW. It isn't the type of game like gold box D&D where you rolled or selected stats and NAMED the character. You can roleplay as Shepard though. They allow the lattitude in dialog , actions, and morality that defines RP.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus, we should probably be saying "equipment" here, not "loot." "Loot" is equipment that you acquire in a particular way.

Good point.  Gear, equipment, "stuff"   What you assemble to make your character more effective at particular tasks.  Whether you find it, buy it, assemble it yourself, or pry from a smoking corpse's hand/claw/tentacle...

[InvincibleHero]

iakus wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

But tonnactus is on to something there nevertheless. CRPGs have traditionally defined characters by loot and stats because they didn't offer meaningful choices, so at least the stuff gave the illusion that you were doing something unique.

Yeah.  Loot doesn't define a character, but it gives the player the tools that can be used to shape the character according to the player's tastes.  Much like a character class.  If you want to play a biotic, you pick a biotic class, rather than a soldier.  IF you want to fight a certain way, you pick this weapon and not that...

If someone needs items to define their character then they are not doing the job right or the game is a poor RPG. Items are only ever tools. My fighter was never defined by his armor but used the best available to enhance survival. Now in CRPGs I refused to wear ceratin armor like the rainbow one. No way no matter the stats. Though it might give you some attacks of opportunity as your opponents roll on the ground laughing at you.

[Xaenn]

InvincibleHero wrote...

If someone needs items to define their character then they are not doing the job right or the game is a poor RPG. Items are only ever tools. My fighter was never defined by his armor but used the best available to enhance survival. Now in CRPGs I refused to wear ceratin armor like the rainbow one. No way no matter the stats. Though it might give you some attacks of opportunity as your opponents roll on the ground laughing at you.

Items do define your characters abilities, how well you suceed or fail at certain task.  Even in society people tend to dress a certain way for a job, sports, leisure, you name it, clothing and equipement you wear defines success failure and who you are.  This applies to games as well. It seems you just have a lack of interest in actually developing your character with items, because you don't want to put the effort into getting them you rather take the approach that a game is bad if it puts a emphasis on it.  People are even definied by the tools they use, so forgive me if I don't understand where you're coming from on this one.

InvincibleHero wrote...
Yeah but Shepard is pre-defined in many ways. It is supposed to be the same Shepard for everyone just male and female differ though probbaly would have same stats anyway. They could give us the stats but they would all be canon BW. It isn't the type of game like gold box D&D where you rolled or selected stats and NAMED the character. You can roleplay as Shepard though. They allow the lattitude in dialog, actions, and morality that defines RP.

I believe stats would work fine if they would re-introduce ones like they had in the original, chance to hit, more accuracy, ectra. Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom ectra I don't believe are really necessary in mass-effect.  If it were a cRPG I would say without a question. Although it's been a long time since intelligence really referenced your characters intelligence and not just his learning curve with spells.

Modifié par Xaenn, 18 juillet 2011 - 06:07 .

[InvincibleHero]

Xaenn wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

If someone needs items to define their character then they are not doing the job right or the game is a poor RPG. Items are only ever tools. My fighter was never defined by his armor but used the best available to enhance survival. Now in CRPGs I refused to wear ceratin armor like the rainbow one. No way no matter the stats. Though it might give you some attacks of opportunity as your opponents roll on the ground laughing at you.

Items do define your characters abilities, how well you suceed or fail at certain task.  Even in society people tend to dress a certain way for a job, sports, leisure, you name it, clothing and equipement you wear defines success failure and who you are.  This applies to games as well. It seems you just have a lack of interest in actually developing your character with items, because you don't want to put the effort into getting them you rather take the approach that a game is bad if it puts a emphasis on it.  People are even definied by the tools they use, so forgive me if I don't understand where you're coming from on this one.

InvincibleHero wrote...
Yeah but Shepard is pre-defined in many ways. It is supposed to be the same Shepard for everyone just male and female differ though probbaly would have same stats anyway. They could give us the stats but they would all be canon BW. It isn't the type of game like gold box D&D where you rolled or selected stats and NAMED the character. You can roleplay as Shepard though. They allow the lattitude in dialog, actions, and morality that defines RP.

I believe stats would work fine if they would re-introduce ones like they had in the original, chance to hit, more accuracy, ectra. Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom ectra I don't believe are really necessary in mass-effect.  If it were a cRPG I would say without a question. Although it's been a long time since intelligence really referenced your characters intelligence and not just his learning curve with spells.

Nope here's why. What you say and do is the roleplaying. Directing the actions of the character and injecting personality. the items are only ever props. really most people are going to use the best items anyway. It is roleplaying if you're zaeed and you use a shi**y old rifle that is more worthless than a modern one because you love it. then it can define you. If you wear a fedora with no benefits over a kevlar helmet then it might be identifying character. If you use the best at the time and work towards best in game then that is min-maxing.

No I don't want miss miss miss while the opponents drill you more accurately than they should. If you haven't figured it out random number generators stink or favor the computer ones over yours by design. Rolling a dice to hit while playing PnP is fun and not so much in a computer game that depicts all the action on-screen. It is active so why not give more control to the player. Agency is great in games IMO.

[Xaenn]

Nope here's why. What you say and do is the roleplaying. Directing the actions of the character and injecting personality. the items are only ever props. really most people are going to use the best items anyway. It is roleplaying if you're zaeed and you use a shi**y old rifle that is more worthless than a modern one because you love it. then it can define you. If you wear a fedora with no benefits over a kevlar helmet then it might be identifying character. If you use the best at the time and work towards best in game then that is min-maxing.

That argument doesn't really work, you're saying it's not possible to wear an item that is great for me and have it define me at the same time? Even if I was mix-maxing, the gear still defines who I am. If I'm wearing all gear to increase a certain stat that improves daggers, probably defines me as a dagger rogue, thus meaning I personally, prefer daggers, meaning I could or do have lots of experience in daggers (my character does in her background) or their my choice. It is a personality choice, it defines me, my character who I am. Saying "Nope," doesn't any less true. You can only use what you got as well, ultimately their isn't a lot of gear choices in games now-a-days, you're going to encouter very simular chioces by players, so you'll never really have something thats completely unique.

No I don't want miss miss miss while the opponents drill you more accurately than they should. If you haven't figured it out random number generators stink or favor the computer ones over yours by design. Rolling a dice to hit while playing PnP is fun and not so much in a computer game that depicts all the action on-screen. It is active so why not give more control to the player. Agency is great in games IMO.

You sound like you're making complaints about the original, I meant use the same stat concept, not they should use the broken combat template. Realistically you aren't going to be amazing at every gun you use unless perhaps you are a 'solider'. Having your gun actually miss makes sense, even would be more immersible, however I believe that to be more semantics as people will argue Shepard is military trained and would know how to use them all 'perfectly. Never made a reference to the dice system, although I wouldn't want the dice system in Mass-Effect (although I do love the dice system). I have terrible luck with roles. Combat in the second one was pretty bad as far as that goes though, where every enemy had nearly 100% accuracy. 

Recently went back and played Baldur's Gate and Knights of the Old Republic. Forgot how much fun they were.  How often I miss...

Modifié par Xaenn, 18 juillet 2011 - 06:44 .

[Lumikki]

tonnactus wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Because role-playing isn't about stats, inventories or loot

Nonsense.Without stats,talents and loot its actually hard to make your character unique....

Because how is your character different from another one,if they are able to do the same(talents and stats) ,wear the same and could behave the same way(because persuade didnt exist as a skill anymore).

Or do you really think the face generator and the choice of the gender is enough for this?(and not even the small amount of "big choices" seem to matter)

You issue is this as understand next sentense. 
"Defining character is not same as role-playing, but defining character is required for role-playing."

First role-playing allways starts as idea inside players head as what your character is. Meaning role what you character really is, is inside your head allways.

Second you think because sertain mechanics there can not be role-playing, but you forgot that defining character doesn't allways have to be done same ways. There is allways other game mechanics what can provide same customation functions. Point been role-playing isn't defined by sertain mechnical system, they are just tools to define character.

So, don't be stuck in idea that role-playing is just something what you have use to see in RPG's. Defining character without sertain stuff is maybe hard, but not impossible. I would say without stats or talents or skills it's very hard, at least in computer games. Without loot it's easy, example buying from shops. Without inventories, depense what is you defination of inventory. Because customation what this all is, allways request choises made by player. But how the choise is made, can be done many different ways.

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus, we should probably be saying "equipment" here, not "loot." "Loot" is equipment that you acquire in a particular way.

Exactly. This is the point. That's why I often just say "customation", because in end that's all what it is, without defining how the customation is mechanically done in games.

PS: My comment inside the quote was more like those are tools for role-playing, but they aren't it self THE role-playing. They can be used to define you character, but actual role-playing is playing role of that character. Sorry my comment was little misleading.

Modifié par Lumikki, 18 juillet 2011 - 11:03 .

[Someone With Mass]

Without a character, you character is...well, not a character. He/she is just an empty shell with no personal traits.

And I'd rather take that over inventory and loot any day.

[SalsaDMA]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Without a character, you character is...well, not a character. He/she is just an empty shell with no personal traits.

And I'd rather take that over inventory and loot any day.

At least you clarified you prefered a non-rpg. But whay are you arguing in a thread about rpg mechanics then?

[Sidney]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Without a character, you character is...well, not a character. He/she is just an empty shell with no personal traits.

And I'd rather take that over inventory and loot any day.

At least you clarified you prefered a non-rpg. But whay are you arguing in a thread about rpg mechanics then?

No, he prefers an Role playing game. He's not standing in defense of this silly theory in this thread that "I have a +3 Sword of Flame and you have a +3 Sword of Frost....we're different!" That idea is just head shakingly bad.

People who think loot makes the character must be thrilled to be so different every day since they change clothes and thus take on a new "role". I wish I was exciting about navigating my closet in the morning as some myst be.

[Darji]

]Ok first of all I like how civilized the thread went so far and also how its still relevant.^^

Secondly. The thing in Mass effect and other Bioware games, except Dragon Age Origins, in the last 10-12 years have huge flaws to call it a great RPG, not only in the mechanics

First of all: The role you can play in these games are good, evil and something with a more sarcastic approch. And thats it. There is no real "gray like in the Witcher or even in Origins. And thats a whole flaw in the character developement. Then there is the lack of consequences of your choices which makes it almost meaningless to even have the choices..... And also the rivaly system which was first implementet in DA2 is bull****. If someone is against the stuff you are doing they would  rather kill you then still stick on your side, All these flaws make the actual RPG element many people want totally meaningless. And of course they also should improve this stuff but as for stats, and loot they are also important.

Ok its impossible to implement now a system like in Baldurs Gate or NVN2 where you also can choose alot of difffernt stuff besides your dex, str or luck for example. But what you can do here is to make the items more stats based. For example. Dont relay on your shooting skill but make the combat stats based. Add acc, firepower, special effects like critical damage or other status effects to the weapon data. Make it that you actually want to collect stuff. This way looting becomes a very great motivator. Also the actual combat doesnt become boring or meaningless because you actually have the chance to get some nice equipment or weapons. Of course not Diablo like with 100000000 of items and weapons but stil there should be a decent amount availibe. Make the character look different which also helps to form his personality and each players characters a little bit more unique.

Also I would love some social skills you actually can upgrade. like speech, intelligence or barter for example which also could open more dialogue choices. Even if it would be a bit wired because this is the 3rd part of the triology and it would be a bit strange to implement it now. So rather but it in future games.