3223 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

My question was rhetorical too. Is having loot a necessary condition to convert an unfun "interactive movie" into a fun "RPG"?

It is potentially a sufficient condition (depending on the interactive movie), and it's one we know BioWare knows how to implement.

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
If the goal here is, as In Exile puts it, to minimise the UI's reliance upon the player's reflexes, then stats and equipment are the means left to the player to modify his character's performance.

The problem is that letting you point the gun was a deal breaker before anything else was even taken into account. Giving us a detailed and sensical loot and stats system would only make it a more interactive TPS. And making character stats dictate accuracy for weapons would just break what little progress they managed to make.

[Veex]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Equally important because stats and loot are a large part of what separates you playing the character from you playing yourself via your own abilities.

I'm not even sure this hold trues for a game like Dragon Age. Stats and loot absolutely play a part in determining how often your character dodges a melee attack or how hard they hit etc..., but you determine who they attack, which attack they'll perform, when to heal, when to retreat and so on. I'm not debating that statistical progression plays a part in roleplaying, but I think it has been severely over-emphasized to this point in the thread.

Player input, even in stat driven RPGs, is the most prominent aspect.

[Phaedon]

Here's a little game that I am sure you will find pretty interesting,

Does The Sims 3 have stats? Yes it does.

Does The Sims 3 have an inventory? Yes, it has a "party inventory" and you can often "equip" items from it.

Does The Sims 3 have statistical progression? Yes, you intentionally pick actions that raise your stats.

Does the stats in The Sims 3 have an effect on your character? Yes, for example having a high fitness skill makes it more likely that people will find you attractive and it will make you win in fights, if your opponents skill is too low.

Does The Sims 3 differentiate character from player? Yes.

Does The Sims 3 allow you to create a character? Yes, one that you customize and select his or her personality.

Does The Sims 3 have loot? Yes, you can steal stuff and search people's trash.




Is The Sims 3 an RPG?

Modifié par Phaedon, 18 juillet 2011 - 07:41 .

[AlanC9]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Bnol wrote...
People most certainly change language.  Language changes based on what the majority of people use it to mean.  Take a word like gay.  50 years ago it was a word for happy, now it is generally a word for a homosexual.  Take something like tea bag.  The connotation of that phrase has definitely changed, especially in the gaming world.


In terms of what is better or worse for ME gameplay is all personal taste, which can't really be debated.

Evidence that some people need to have the stupid slapped out of them.

I have no idea what you mean by that.

[the_one_54321]

Veex wrote...
Player input, even in stat driven RPGs, is the most prominent aspect.

Of course it is. That's the major function that makes it a game instead of a movie. You need player agency, but you need that barrier between "it's me" and "it's the character." If the barrier is not there, then it's not role playing.

AlanC9 wrote...
I have no idea what you mean by that.

Whenever you witness someone missusning a word on purpose, slap that person. Hard.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 18 juillet 2011 - 07:35 .

[the_one_54321]

Phaedon wrote...
Is The Sims 3 an RPG?

The Sims is a simulation game primarily because it also gives you agency over the environment and lacks any real narrative. Otherwise, yes, The Sims could concievably have been an RPG.

[Phaedon]

the_one_54321 wrote...
Of course it is. That's the major function that makes it a game instead of a movie. You need player agency, but you need that barrier between "it's me" and "it's the character." If the barrier is not there, then it's not role playing.

That doesn't stop the characters from belonging to the player, they may as well go as far and claim that they are the protagonist. I know many who play that way. And it's perfectly valid.

In LARP you execute the actions of your character, and in PnPs you describe the actions of your character.

In CRPGs? You basically execute the actions of your character to some point, and leave  the computer describe the rest, instead of you.

A link between the player and the protagonist will always be there.
How is moving your player around any different than any link ME2 has?

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

My question was rhetorical too. Is having loot a necessary condition to convert an unfun "interactive movie" into a fun "RPG"?

It is potentially a sufficient condition (depending on the interactive movie), and it's one we know BioWare knows how to implement.

Sure. Some folks like the feature, full stop. Any feature could reach sufficiency depending on the enjoyment function a particular player is using.

My personal function depends on the rest of the game; for me, "loot" per se can be anything from a weak positive to a strong negative, depending on the plot and setting. ME1: weak negative (it would have been worse if you couldn't pretty much not think about the stuff and just take whatever the random drops give you). ME2: neutral -- would have been a slight positive if shops and some of the sillier item drops like the Carnifex had been removed.

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 juillet 2011 - 07:59 .

[Phaedon]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
Is The Sims 3 an RPG?

The Sims is a simulation game primarily because it also gives you agency over the environment and lacks any real narrative. Otherwise, yes, The Sims could concievably have been an RPG.

It lacks narrative and  choices.

Check about those two features the next time you play a simulation game, and then go back and tell me that they don't make an RPG.

[the_one_54321]

The Sims has choices. They are just largely irrelevant since there is no narrative. Go to work today or don't go to work today?

[AlanC9]

the_one_54321 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
I have no idea what you mean by that.

Whenever you witness someone missusning a word on purpose, slap that person. Hard.

I'll pass. The vocabulary police are about as unpopular as the food police, and rightly so.

Language wants to be free.

[the_one_54321]

AlanC9 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
I have no idea what you mean by that.

Whenever you witness someone missusning a word on purpose, slap that person. Hard.

I'll pass. The vocabulary police are about as unpopular as the food police, and rightly so.

Language wants to be free.

Language want's to be a tool for communication and not confusion.

[Phaedon]

the_one_54321 wrote...

The Sims has choices. They are just largely irrelevant since there is no narrative. Go to work today or don't go to work today?

And there are expansion packs, for 2 at least, that give you a storyline. They are still irrelevant, because they don't have actual choices.

The narrative gives you a few toys to play around, hell, even if you get to marry a character, that hardly makes it a real choice. Why? Because, simply, enough, you don't give a damn. 

You must have a universe and characters that make you care about what you choose, and the plot to change based on your choices. 

Otherwise the narrative is just like the Sims, an excuse for you to toy around, and the choices are as significant as going to the bathroom or peeing in a museum.

Simply adjusting your fitness skill or your aspiration meter and another effect that simply involves changing a stat somehow stops it from being an RPG and makes it a simulation game.

There you go.

Modifié par Phaedon, 18 juillet 2011 - 07:48 .

[the_one_54321]

What's your point Phaedon?

[Phaedon]

the_one_54321 wrote...

What's your point Phaedon?

I think it's quite clear.

The stats just make pure RPGs not implode, gameplay-wise, it's the narrative and the big choices that make it into a good game.

ME2 still has stats. Some are necessary. Some are not.

Some are handled by it's shooter component, but as long as the game is playable, it doesn't really matter. At least that's what I have figured out.

Strip the game of it's shifting narrative and it's big choices, and that's when I and BioWare will have a problem.

[Someone With Mass]

I don't feel like fishing up the comment, but I meant that I'd rather take a well-developed character instead of inventory and loot any day.

[the_one_54321]

Phaedon wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
What's your point Phaedon?

I think it's quite clear.

The stats just make pure RPGs not implode, gameplay-wise, it's the narrative and the big choices that make it into a good game.

ME2 still has stats. Some are necessary. Some are not.

Some are handled by it's shooter component, but as long as the game is playable, it doesn't really matter. At least that's what I have figured out.

Strip the game of it's shifting narrative and it's big choices, and that's when I and BioWare will have a problem.

There are not many people that want to play a game absent of narrative. I don't see why this point needed to be made. I wasn't claiming otherwise to begin with.

[AlanC9]

the_one_54321 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I'll pass. The vocabulary police are about as unpopular as the food police, and rightly so.

Language wants to be free.

Language want's to be a tool for communication and not confusion.

Sometimes the point is to be impenetrable to outsiders while permitting clear communication within the group.

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 juillet 2011 - 07:55 .

[Veex]

the_one_54321 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
I'll pass. The vocabulary police are about as unpopular as the food police, and rightly so.

Language wants to be free.

Language want's to be a tool for communication and not confusion.

What Language wants is somewhat irrelevant in comparison to what Language is. Language, like most tools, changes over time. The changes may be subtle in some cases and drastic in others, but it does change. To tie this back into Bnol's original point, you'd likely cause more confusion using the first definition of gay in comparison to its current connotation.

[Phaedon]

the_one_54321 wrote...
There are not many people that want to play a game absent of narrative. I don't see why this point needed to be made. I wasn't claiming otherwise to begin with. 

What I am saying is, while some stats are necessary, don't make a big fuss over them. They are not the only thing that defines your character, and it's probably the weakest thing to do so.

"You are quite strong" (88/100 ATK Points) say much less than "You believe that someone should sacrifice all they got to help others, as long as it isn't something that they have no rights over" (Saving Rachni Queen)

Modifié par Phaedon, 18 juillet 2011 - 08:05 .

[the_one_54321]

If one wishes to role play in such a manner that the character has physical abilities that are quantifiably different than the self, then stats are strictly necessary.

[Xaenn]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
If the goal here is, as In Exile puts it, to minimise the UI's reliance upon the player's reflexes, then stats and equipment are the means left to the player to modify his character's performance.

The problem is that letting you point the gun was a deal breaker before anything else was even taken into account. Giving us a detailed and sensical loot and stats system would only make it a more interactive TPS. And making character stats dictate accuracy for weapons would just break what little progress they managed to make.

This unfortunally is an opinion, you consider it to be progress, others may consider it be moving back in progression. Just because you like something or agree with a dev doesn't make it positive progression.  Not that I disagree. Although stats taking into account of accuracy does make sense, as you are role playing and you maybe role playing something you don't really know how to do very well, maybe you want to role play as someone who does. /shrug

My question was rhetorical too. Is having loot a necessary condition to convert an unfun "interactive movie" into a fun "RPG"?

There is no correct answer <_<

Modifié par Xaenn, 18 juillet 2011 - 08:14 .

[AlanC9]

the_one_54321 wrote...

If one wishes to role play in such a manner that the character has physical abilities that are quantifiably different than the self, then stats are strictly necessary.

Sure, but those stats don't have to be variable. If the game only accepts certain kinds of PC then the system can simply assume stats. In DAO you're always playing a leader of men (and dwarves and elves and qunari). In ME you're always playing a leader and an expert physical combatant.

I'm neither of these things IRL, but in the games I play one.

[the_one_54321]

Xaenn wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
If the goal here is, as In Exile puts it, to minimise the UI's reliance upon the player's reflexes, then stats and equipment are the means left to the player to modify his character's performance.

The problem is that letting you point the gun was a deal breaker before anything else was even taken into account. Giving us a detailed and sensical loot and stats system would only make it a more interactive TPS. And making character stats dictate accuracy for weapons would just break what little progress they managed to make.

This unfortunally is an opinion, you consider it to be progress, others may consider it be moving back in progression. Just because you like something or agree with a dev doesn't make it positive progression.

When you originally try to base one mechanical function to a historically contradictory mechanical function, the only definitive direction of progress is to subsuquently unlink them or replace one with something that is not historically contradictory.

Telling the player "you must point the gun" and then making accuracy based on character stats is historically completely contradictory. And moreso, it is even objectively less effective or efficient than tradition target RPG selection.