3223 réponses à ce sujet

[sbvera13]

AlanC9 wrote...

I can tell the differentce between ME2 and shooters. Are you actually telling me that you can't? Or are you saying that you don't think the difference amounts to a difference in genre?

If it's the latter, I don't care. Genre definitions are of no interest to me.

If it's the former, which other shooters would give me an equivalent experience?

ME2 is a shooter with lots of dialogue.  Now, I'll grant that this is unusual in a shooter, but that's still what it boils down to and further distinctions are probably just labels which you have stated you don't care about.

[AlanC9]

Terror_K wrote...
So all in all, given how divided these forums are, I wouldn't say the vast majority of the fanbase preferred ME2's gameplay by a "pretty wide margin" at all. Just the overall playerbase. And I don't see why BioWare should design their games more for casual players who don't really love the game any more than the other games they play (in fact, probably less) over those who really loved the original and fell in love with the IP.

"Given how divided these forums are" isn't exactly science. WE've got the same five or six people showing up on the two sides of this issue that we ever have.

As for what the casuals think of the design changes... don't know, don't care. I liked the changes, and I'm as big a fan as anyone here.

AlanC9 wrote...
You're joking, right? Pretty much every game these days is a hybrid. 90% of the AAA titles out there are all essentially the same: these gritty story-driven, action-oriented affairs with mild RPG and customisation elements. This is the age of the hybrid, and it's making gaming generic.

Really? Which shooters have dialogue choices, just to take something obvious?

[AlanC9]

sbvera13 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I can tell the differentce between ME2 and shooters. Are you actually telling me that you can't? Or are you saying that you don't think the difference amounts to a difference in genre?

If it's the latter, I don't care. Genre definitions are of no interest to me.

If it's the former, which other shooters would give me an equivalent experience?

ME2 is a shooter with lots of dialogue.  Now, I'll grant that this is unusual in a shooter, but that's still what it boils down to and further distinctions are probably just labels which you have stated you don't care about.

OK. Who's making shooters with lots of dialogue, then?

(I'm just playing along, mind -- I don't think that's really an accurate description of the game.)

Edit:: Just to be clear, I'm playing along here because the_one_54321 put forth the proposition (and Gatt9 and Terror_K apparently seconded) that what you get from ME2 you can get from lots of other games out there. I've heard this before, but it seems to be nonsense. Am I playing the wrong games?

Modifié par AlanC9, 04 juillet 2011 - 03:55 .

[Savber100]

Ugh... This thread just doesn't die. ;P

I'm tired of people saying ME2 is just a "shooter with lots of dialogue"

Oh?

Does Halo have the option where I don't have to fight the damn Covenant? Does God of War 3 have the option where Kratos does not have to kill Zeus? Does Assassin's Creed have an option where I can join the Templars?

No? Then, shut the hell up about ME2 being a shooter with lots of dialogue.  

ME2's is a HYBRID where choices and consequences gives you a different world. Is it perfect? No as SilentAssassin points out some gaping holes but flaws (major or minor) doesn't take away the fact that it still has a major ROLE-PLAYING element. ME had a rotten stat system compared to games like Fallout 1 but that didn't make it less of a RPG. 

Stop acting that because ME2 didn't fit your tastes, it has to be only a "generic" and "bad" game.

Seriously, open your mind to some greater complexity that goes beyond a simple black and white perspective of ME2's place in RPG/Action games.

Modifié par Savber100, 04 juillet 2011 - 03:51 .

[sbvera13]

AlanC9 wrote...

sbvera13 wrote...

ME2 is a shooter with lots of dialogue.  Now, I'll grant that this is unusual in a shooter, but that's still what it boils down to and further distinctions are probably just labels which you have stated you don't care about.

OK. Who's making shooters with lots of dialogue, then?

[TheKillerAngel]

Dangerfoot wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Not really. I played fallout new vegas as a sniper, if you just gave him a knife he would die. Fast.
My other character was a tribal. I couldnt snipe with him, aside from aim being off, it was also patheticly weak.

My characters were under my control, but stats played a very big part in thier abilities/options/playstyle.

This.

Well, what does this sound like?

Gatt9 says

An RPG is defined by Character based skill,  you're taking on a Role,  you have to have a Character to do so,  the Character must be defined independent of you and your skills or you're just doing self-insertion.

Having a choice in how you distribute skill points is still you defining that character.

[sbvera13]

Savber100 wrote...

Does Halo have the option where I don't have to fight the damn Covenant? Does God of War have the option of not having to kill Zeus? Does Assassin's Creed have an option where I can join the Templars?

Does ME2 have an option where you don't ally with Cerberus?

[Cainne Chapel]

It is true a lot of games are crossing genre definitions these days.... I really dont find that a bad thing.

Its like any other form of entertainment, if they find something works they use it. a movie can have action/drama/comedy/romance all in one and be a good movie on its own two feet, doesnt mean EVERY movie has to have something for everyone but if it works, I dont see why more good movies cant follow in its mold.

But for every movie that hits most "Filmmaking" genres there will always be ones that stick to their own genre's formula and be successful as well, that doesnt mean one is better or worse, just different.

and theres room for all of em in my eyes. Same goes with video gaming. If they add elements of other genres to a game to make it better and fun, I have no problem with it, if they stick to their own genres conventions and the game is good and solid, i'll enjoy it too.

There's enough games coming out that one can enjoy a wide variety and not be hung up on genre definitions.

[AlanC9]

sbvera13 wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

Does Halo have the option where I don't have to fight the damn Covenant? Does God of War have the option of not having to kill Zeus? Does Assassin's Creed have an option where I can join the Templars?

Does ME2 have an option where you don't ally with Cerberus?

Does BG2 have an option where you don't kill Irenicus? Does BG1 have an option where  the Bhallspawn runs away to Waterdeep? Start down this road and we'll be here all night.

Modifié par AlanC9, 04 juillet 2011 - 03:54 .

[Cainne Chapel]

and Gatt9 I can honestly say i've played blessed few games, where the "Player" has no input into how the character develops (skill wise, not always plot wise) in a game.
Sure as a player i may not always control his background/appearance/respones in a game, but you ALWAYS have control over what the character does and how he does it in most cases. Otherwise the game would play for you wouldnt it? Tell you which skills to develop, tell you when you fight and how to fight.

Fact of the matter is as long as its a user interfaced medium, Player choice will ALWAYS factor in somewhere. So at some point Self insertion into a character will be present in some form or manner.

Edit: I should point out I mean games labeled as "RPGs" in the strictest sense anyway.

Modifié par Cainne Chapel, 04 juillet 2011 - 03:56 .

[marshalleck]

AlanC9 wrote...

Does BG2 have an option where you don't kill Irenicus? Does BG1 have an option where  the Bhallspawn runs away to Waterdeep? Start down this road and we'll be here all night.

MIght as well. Still a long time to go until ME3!

[Savber100]

sbvera13 wrote...

Savber100 wrote...

Does Halo have the option where I don't have to fight the damn Covenant? Does God of War have the option of not having to kill Zeus? Does Assassin's Creed have an option where I can join the Templars?

Does ME2 have an option where you don't ally with Cerberus?

Does Dragon Age: Origins have the option where I don't have to join the Grey Wardens? 

Does the Witcher 2 give you the option of not accepting Roche's help to escape or give you the option to join the Kingslayers? 

We can go on... 

Believe it or not, there are times when you have no choice in a matter BUT you can decide how to react to it and THAT was the choice ME2 gave. Is it good? Maybe not.  But only ME2 allowed you to react the way you choose AND also allowed you to pwn TIM at the very end. 

Modifié par Savber100, 04 juillet 2011 - 04:01 .

[AlanC9]

marshalleck wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Does BG2 have an option where you don't kill Irenicus? Does BG1 have an option where  the Bhallspawn runs away to Waterdeep? Start down this road and we'll be here all night.

MIght as well. Still a long time to go until ME3!

Oh, gods....eight more months of this, and then a bitterness fiesta when ME3 is actually released.

[marshalleck]

AlanC9 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Does BG2 have an option where you don't kill Irenicus? Does BG1 have an option where  the Bhallspawn runs away to Waterdeep? Start down this road and we'll be here all night.

MIght as well. Still a long time to go until ME3!

Oh, gods....eight more months of this, and then a bitterness fiesta when ME3 is actually released.

I love it. So dramatic!

Modifié par marshalleck, 04 juillet 2011 - 03:58 .

[sbvera13]

AlanC9 wrote...

Edit:: Just to be clear, I'm playing along here because the_one_54321 put forth the proposition (and Gatt9 and Terror_K apparently seconded) that what you get from ME2 you can get from lots of other games out there. I've heard this before, but it seems to be nonsense. Am I playing the wrong games?

Deus Ex, in it's own way.  It doesn't have the deep character stories, but it does have branching endings, choice/consequence, and an amazing central plot that stands up to even classic science fiction standards.  (transhumanism, determinism, nature of morality, all touched on).  It also has loot, an RPG skill system, and a great shooter action interface.  IMO, best game ever made on any platform in any genre.

I can't think of any others.  Games of that quality are rare to the point of near-nonexistance.

[AlanC9]

marshalleck wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Does BG2 have an option where you don't kill Irenicus? Does BG1 have an option where  the Bhallspawn runs away to Waterdeep? Start down this road and we'll be here all night.

MIght as well. Still a long time to go until ME3!

Oh, gods....eight more months of this, and then a bitterness fiesta when ME3 is actually released.

I love it. So dramatic!

And I just know I'll be here all the way.

I think the reason I react so negatively to using loot as a reward mechanism  --  the position Gatt9 tried to sell a few pages back -- might be that I already engage in all the compulsive behavior I care to right here.

[this isnt my name]

Savber100 wrote...


Does Halo have the option where I don't have to fight the damn Covenant? Does God of War 3 have the option where Kratos does not have to kill Zeus? Does Assassin's Creed have an option where I can join the Templars?

No? Then, shut the hell up about ME2 being a shooter with lots of dialogue.  

Does ME2 have an option where I dont fight collectors ? WHere I dont fight the mechs ? And the same 3 merc groups ?

An option not to kill the collector general ?
An option not to work with cerberus ?


Please, your argument fails, ME2 has bugger all in terms of choices, mst are end quest choices, which have no impact on the game.

Its a shooter, it has dialouge, most of which is pointless. 3 ways to get the same outcome, but hey shepard got to be angr in one option... That changes it right ? Oh wait.

You know what halo has that mass effect 2 dosent ?

A decent story.

[AlanC9]

sbvera13 wrote...
Deus Ex, in it's own way.  It doesn't have the deep character stories, but it does have branching endings, choice/consequence, and an amazing central plot that stands up to even classic science fiction standards.  (transhumanism, determinism, nature of morality, all touched on).  It also has loot, an RPG skill system, and a great shooter action interface.  IMO, best game ever made on any platform in any genre.

I can't think of any others.  Games of that quality are rare to the point of near-nonexistance.

Yeah, I was thinking of that one too..

You see what I was getting at, then. The vast bulk of the shooters out there aren't adequate substitutes

[TheKillerAngel]

this isnt my name wrote...

Savber100 wrote...


Does Halo have the option where I don't have to fight the damn Covenant? Does God of War 3 have the option where Kratos does not have to kill Zeus? Does Assassin's Creed have an option where I can join the Templars?

No? Then, shut the hell up about ME2 being a shooter with lots of dialogue.  

Does ME2 have an option where I dont fight collectors ? WHere I dont fight the mechs ? And the same 3 merc groups ?

An option not to kill the collector general ?
An option not to work with cerberus ?


Please, your argument fails, ME2 has bugger all in terms of choices, mst are end quest choices, which have no impact on the game.

Its a shooter, it has dialouge, most of which is pointless. 3 ways to get the same outcome, but hey shepard got to be angr in one option... That changes it right ? Oh wait.

You know what halo has that mass effect 2 dosent ?

A decent story.

You understand that there are fews way for devs to just allow you to do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING while still retaining a central framework for a story? Games that totally go sandbox often suffer in terms of story because there is just nothing to follow.

[Il Divo]

this isnt my name wrote...

Savber100 wrote...


Does Halo have the option where I don't have to fight the damn Covenant? Does God of War 3 have the option where Kratos does not have to kill Zeus? Does Assassin's Creed have an option where I can join the Templars?

No? Then, shut the hell up about ME2 being a shooter with lots of dialogue.  

Does ME2 have an option where I dont fight collectors ? WHere I dont fight the mechs ? And the same 3 merc groups ?

An option not to kill the collector general ?
An option not to work with cerberus ?


Please, your argument fails, ME2 has bugger all in terms of choices, mst are end quest choices, which have no impact on the game.

Its a shooter, it has dialouge, most of which is pointless. 3 ways to get the same outcome, but hey shepard got to be angr in one option... That changes it right ? Oh wait.

So...you just described Mass Effect 1 as well?

Edit: And pretty much all Bioware games, come to think of it.

Modifié par Il Divo, 04 juillet 2011 - 04:09 .

[Il Divo]

TheKillerAngel wrote...

You understand that there are fews way for devs to just allow you to do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING while still retaining a central framework for a story? Games that totally go sandbox often suffer in terms of story because there is just nothing to follow.

The Elder Scrolls, as an example. Morrowind was a great game, interesting lore, with a terribly executed plot.

[TheKillerAngel]

Il Divo wrote...

TheKillerAngel wrote...

You understand that there are fews way for devs to just allow you to do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING while still retaining a central framework for a story? Games that totally go sandbox often suffer in terms of story because there is just nothing to follow.

The Elder Scrolls, as an example. Morrowind was a great game, interesting lore, with a terribly executed plot.

I would also add, Fallout 3. I tried to get into that game but couldn't because frankly, I didn't feel as if i had much purpose or mission. I didn't find wandering around a wasteland occasionally blasting stuff to be that fun.

[Cainne Chapel]

this isnt my name wrote...

Savber100 wrote...


Does Halo have the option where I don't have to fight the damn Covenant? Does God of War 3 have the option where Kratos does not have to kill Zeus? Does Assassin's Creed have an option where I can join the Templars?

No? Then, shut the hell up about ME2 being a shooter with lots of dialogue.  

Does ME2 have an option where I dont fight collectors ? WHere I dont fight the mechs ? And the same 3 merc groups ?

An option not to kill the collector general ?
An option not to work with cerberus ?


Please, your argument fails, ME2 has bugger all in terms of choices, mst are end quest choices, which have no impact on the game.

Its a shooter, it has dialouge, most of which is pointless. 3 ways to get the same outcome, but hey shepard got to be angr in one option... That changes it right ? Oh wait.

You know what halo has that mass effect 2 dosent ?

A decent story.

Halo has a decent story? News to me!

My opinion is ME2 (Hell Mass Effect generally) has a better storyline than all the Halos combined!

That said does Halo: COmbat Evolved give me the option to NOT be Master chief? Or fight the same 5 aliens or the flood?

See we can do this for everything in existence!

Mass effect 2 still has more choices and variables in it that Halo ever had.  and sure the end results are "mostly" the same.... but what did you expect? Them to make 10 different games for every plot variable possible?  Even I know thats not possible or worthwhile. 

Also what other game do you know that can carry over choices like the Mass effect series through the whole trilogy? Sure the differences may not be major as there is an overarching plot, but the side characters can vary as can a few missions here and there.

[sbvera13]

AlanC9 wrote...

Yeah, I was thinking of that one too..

You see what I was getting at, then. The vast bulk of the shooters out there aren't adequate substitutes

I can see that.  My bitterness comes directly from the reduction in writing and artistic quality between 1/2.  The gameplay I never cared about, in either game.  But 2 lost the storytelling style for me.  The characters are great, but they're so short, there are so many of them, and the missions tedious to do over and over if you want to bring multiple characters through the series to ME3.

[sbvera13]

Cainne Chapel wrote...

See we can do this for everything in existence!

The original issue was whether or not ME2 was distinct from most shooters, and someone (I forget who) brought up the choices.  The little "can you..." meme started to illustrate that it really didn't have many serious choices after all.  What it does have is great voice acting and writing, which sets it apart, but gameplay mechanics not so much.