3223 réponses à ce sujet

[slimgrin]

Siven80 wrote...

Its a good and correct statement.

Loot and stats, while they can be nice, dont make an RPG.

They make for interesting gameplay though, even intelligent gameplay if well done. Sounds like this is PR speak for more simplification/streamlining.

[Someone With Mass]

Darji wrote...

Ok first of all. If they want to make a game with deeper RPG mechanics. The combat needs to be stats based. Otherwise its only a shooter. Secondly as far as the characterdriven story goes. Yes it would be great but the story in ME2 was not characterdriven, or complex, or even good. IT basicly was guy saves world but before that he recruits some guys with almost no personalty or deep character developement. Another thing is the features that bioware tries to hype alot with their games. And this is that your choices matter and that there will be consequences.

And this is the point where they really fail. Not one of your choices really mattered. Especially in ME2. The only thing that mattered was that you have to do their companion quest in order to let them survive. All the other stuff doesnt matter and it wont matter in ME3 either. Besides some Cameos. Which is really really sad. Why cant they do it like Alpha protocol. In this game the whole plot and also the settings will chance according to your choices.

Its great to say that a deep "RPG" needs a good character driven story but if you cant even do that and still try to convince people. Then something terrible went wrong in the developement.

You don't know that. You have absolutely no way of knowing that unless you have played the game, which I doubt you have.

And if you think nobody on the ship had any kind of personality, then I don't think you paid any attention to what was going on at all, because I saw great and sometimes subtle character developments in some cases.

And I can live if my guns aren't affected by stats in some nonsensical way, so I can't hit anything if I don't have points to invest in some of my skills, which makes no sense, since the character you play as is an N7 elite soldier.

And saving the galaxy/world is pretty much the plot of any game, so I'm not exactly complaning there. Even if the plots in Mass Effect have been more than that.

As for the RPG elements, they can be implemented in other ways than just being the incredibly boring loot and weapon stat system. Like the way they're doing it for ME3. And comparing Mass Effect to Alpha Protocol is just an insult, since the only good part about that game was the dialogues. Everything else was pure garbage.

[Undertone]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Darji wrote...

Ok first of all. If they want to make a game with deeper RPG mechanics. The combat needs to be stats based. Otherwise its only a shooter. Secondly as far as the characterdriven story goes. Yes it would be great but the story in ME2 was not characterdriven, or complex, or even good. IT basicly was guy saves world but before that he recruits some guys with almost no personalty or deep character developement. Another thing is the features that bioware tries to hype alot with their games. And this is that your choices matter and that there will be consequences.

And this is the point where they really fail. Not one of your choices really mattered. Especially in ME2. The only thing that mattered was that you have to do their companion quest in order to let them survive. All the other stuff doesnt matter and it wont matter in ME3 either. Besides some Cameos. Which is really really sad. Why cant they do it like Alpha protocol. In this game the whole plot and also the settings will chance according to your choices.

Its great to say that a deep "RPG" needs a good character driven story but if you cant even do that and still try to convince people. Then something terrible went wrong in the developement.

You don't know that. You have absolutely no way of knowing that unless you have played the game, which I doubt you have.

And if you think nobody on the ship had any kind of personality, then I don't think you paid any attention to what was going on at all, because I saw great and sometimes subtle character developments in some cases.

And I can live if my guns aren't affected by stats in some nonsensical way, so I can't hit anything if I don't have points to invest in some of my skills, which makes no sense, since the character you play as is an N7 elite soldier.

And saving the galaxy/world is pretty much the plot of any game, so I'm not exactly complaning there. Even if the plots in Mass Effect have been more than that.

As for the RPG elements, they can be implemented in other ways than just being the incredibly boring loot and weapon stat system. Like the way they're doing it for ME3. And comparing Mass Effect to Alpha Protocol is just an insult, since the only good part about that game was the dialogues. Everything else was pure garbage.

You never heard of making a projection based upon what you already saw? 

[Balek-Vriege]

I agree with Casey, especially when thinking back to playing Baldur's Gate and Fallout. I remember the best thing about those games were PC and NPC interaction and not knowing what was going to happen next in the storyline.

I never collected loot because I thought "woooow shiny" (Except in Diablo). I collected loot in games like Fallout because I wanted to be able to afford Power Armor or a laser rifle when I came across one. Turned out I got the best items in RPGs from quality sidequests and plot completion anyways. Neither game had awsome random loot on every other corpse. In fact, most of it was garbage unless it was an important location or an important dead NPC.

Regardless, Shepard is a galactic, government sponsored super commando, not a poor orphaned Bhaalspawn or an ignorant Vault Dweller with only a jumpsuit and a 10mm pistol to his/her name. If the Mass Effect universe were real, Shepard would get the best equipment in the galaxy from his employers, while picking up illegal/unknown mods and upgrades along the way. So it makes sense to have a few elite weapons and armors, with vitually no loot save for mods etc.

What is important to me is the storyline, how it unfolds and better yet, how we can decide what paths our PC takes and when. However, a ME2 inventory system (with a few more options) combined ME1's mod system couldn't hurt.

[88mphSlayer]

Darji wrote...

Ok first of all. If they want to make a game with deeper RPG mechanics. The combat needs to be stats based. Otherwise its only a shooter. Secondly as far as the characterdriven story goes. Yes it would be great but the story in ME2 was not characterdriven, or complex, or even good. IT basicly was guy saves world but before that he recruits some guys with almost no personalty or deep character developement. Another thing is the features that bioware tries to hype alot with their games. And this is that your choices matter and that there will be consequences.

And this is the point where they really fail. Not one of your choices really mattered. Especially in ME2. The only thing that mattered was that you have to do their companion quest in order to let them survive. All the other stuff doesnt matter and it wont matter in ME3 either. Besides some Cameos. Which is really really sad. Why cant they do it like Alpha protocol. In this game the whole plot and also the settings will chance according to your choices.

Its great to say that a deep "RPG" needs a good character driven story but if you cant even do that and still try to convince people. Then something terrible went wrong in the developement.

right well Heavy Rain is far more non-linear than any of the mass effect games, InFAMOUS had a morality bar as well with character driven story progression, etc. i'm not sure i'd call either of those an rpg, call of duty's multiplayer allows heavy customization but i'm not sure i'd call customizing a loadout an rpg, even MGS4 had customized loadouts but that game is still firmly in the "stealth" genre, i guess it just begs the question of if anybody knows what an rpg is and what is Mass Effect? is it a just a shooter? is it a shooter trying to be an action/adventure game? what's the point of trying to call it an rpg?

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 30 juin 2011 - 11:48 .

[Someone With Mass]

Undertone wrote...
You never heard of making a projection based upon what you already saw? 

Oh, yeah, because judging a whole game based of a demo of two levels that weren't even from the final build of the game and had obvious placeholders and WIPs makes so much sense. 

It'll just make your arguments so weak, no-one will take you seriously when you bash a incomplete version of a game about 8 months away from its release.

[Darji]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Darji wrote...

Ok first of all. If they want to make a game with deeper RPG mechanics. The combat needs to be stats based. Otherwise its only a shooter.

Your average brown/bloom/gritty/cover-based/modern fps is actually as much or more stat-driven than your average RPG. http://denkirson.xan.../bad-company-2/

Oh i think you have missunderstand me here. stats based combat should not depend on you own acc or skills but only on your stats. For example if you have a very high acc you should be able to hit more criticals or even more hits. With low acc you should not be able to make every shot a hit and so on.  This is what I meant with stats based combat. Hope you can understand it now a bit more^^


As for storytelling Yes the bar is very high especially with the choice and consequences thing. There are games like the Witcher 2, Deues EX 3 and also Alpha protocol who did a far better jpb than Bioware ever did in the last 10 years.

Also it maye just me but when i think about a character driven story I think more in the JRPG format where you actually have a very character driven story while in ME it can be everyone who saves the world. Thats a big complain in most West RPGs nowdays anyway. Again The Witcher 2 did a great Job inthis aspect.. Because its more Geralt story then about a random hero who saves the world. 

[Lumikki]

So, we seem to have again some Bioware bashing thread going here, so that some players can went they frustration about game design what doesn't fit in they gameplay perfectly. People who want to change game to be fit they needs. Without understanding what the game really was and has been in first place.

What RPG is again?

Modifié par Lumikki, 30 juin 2011 - 11:51 .

[The Spamming Troll]

i like how ME2 used scanning items to the normandy having no need to carry bottomless pockets. the weapons had basically all the variety you would ask for, with ME3 adding mods that change its functionality in a limited way too. armor/casual garb could most definitely use a much larger collection of items. from light to heavy, and ugly to sexy. i want to choose my characters clothing equally as much as i want to create his face, so dont limit those options.

i really hope theres a main story to ME3 tho. thats the only thing thats gonig to keep me replaying it untill they create ME4 in like 10 years on the PS4 with ridiculous kenect type gameplay where im holding a gun and rolling around my living room throwing asari commandos into outer space with the simple motion of my arm and wrist on my 40some inch 3D television.

oh god i just pooed my pants.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 30 juin 2011 - 11:49 .

[Darji]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Undertone wrote...
You never heard of making a projection based upon what you already saw? 

Oh, yeah, because judging a whole game based of a demo of two levels that weren't even from the final build of the game and had obvious placeholders and WIPs makes so much sense. 

It'll just make your arguments so weak, no-one will take you seriously when you bash a incomplete version of a game about 8 months away from its release.

Ok its based on ME1 and ME2 and also the stuff you know already about ME3. For example about your team. where you already know that people who didnt make it in your came return now again. And I heavenly doubt that this will be much different than the transition from ME to ME2 in this Aspect.

[Medhia Nox]

From the few screenshots I've seen - I don't think I'll be at all disappointed in "stats".

As for Loot... I want more loot that does something other than help me fight. While fun - I think "loot" can be so much more. "Gifts" were great loot (even if the whole "buying friends" was a little shallow).

What if we could find artifacts and bring them to "The Shadow Broker" for quests?

Or find items that give us some unique options during cut screens - or other events.

===

These ideas aren't new - but I think Bioware would benefit from being more varied in the utility of things like loot and stats - not simplifying them to the point of irrelevancy. ((again, it looks like I'll be happy with "stats"))

[Someone With Mass]

The PLC wrote...

Do people seriously want all those useless gun mods back? I hated the fact that I constantly had to 'clean up' my inventory in ME1. it sucked!

The new customization features looks fine!

I agree. There's no need for some inventory system, and the stats are obviously there, and even if they're not all written in numbers, you can still understand the effect.

[88mphSlayer]

Lumikki wrote...

So, we seem to have again some Bioware bashing thread going, so that some players can went they frustation to about game design what doesn't fit in they gameplay perfectly. People who want to change game to be fit they needs. Without understanding what the game really was and has been in first place.

i'm cool with bioware doing whatever, i just wish people would kind of "make up their minds" on the matter of whether Mass Effect is an rpg, an action/adventure game, a shooter, or etc. because what bioware is saying makes it an rpg isn't a staple of the genre to begin with

Oblivion without loot/stats wouldn't qualify as an rpg imo, it'd be a sandbox action/adventure game, similarly Mass Effect without loot/stats is a shooter, not sure why people have a problem calling it a shooter

Modifié par 88mphSlayer, 30 juin 2011 - 11:55 .

[sympathy4saren]

I know stats take away from fps fanboys and the trigger, so try to be sympathetic, folks.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Darji wrote...

Oh i think you have missunderstand me here. stats based combat should not depend on you own acc or skills but only on your stats. For example if you have a very high acc you should be able to hit more criticals or even more hits. With low acc you should not be able to make every shot a hit and so on.  This is what I meant with stats based combat. Hope you can understand it now a bit more^^


As for storytelling Yes the bar is very high especially with the choice and consequences thing. There are games like the Witcher 2, Deues EX 3 and also Alpha protocol who did a far better jpb than Bioware ever did in the last 10 years.

Also it maye just me but when i think about a character driven story I think more in the JRPG format where you actually have a very character driven story while in ME it can be everyone who saves the world. Thats a big complain in most West RPGs nowdays anyway. Again The Witcher 2 did a great Job inthis aspect.. Because its more Geralt story then about a random hero who saves the world. 

RE: Stats, I see what you mean and I think games like that should definitely exist. But in terms of Bioware flagship franchises, that's more of a Dragon Age thing than a Mass Effect thing - Mass Effect is much more of a RPG/shooter-hybrid, IMO.

Yeah, and story-wise I agree that a set protagonist is something I personally find more compelling than a protagonist I design as well. However, a lot of people like the ability to create their own character, and that's another design decision that Bioware made for Mass Effect. But in terms of choices and consequences, I agree with you that they should definitely look at some of the other big RPGs for tips.

[Undertone]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Undertone wrote...
You never heard of making a projection based upon what you already saw? 

Oh, yeah, because judging a whole game based of a demo of two levels that weren't even from the final build of the game and had obvious placeholders and WIPs makes so much sense. 

It'll just make your arguments so weak, no-one will take you seriously when you bash a incomplete version of a game about 8 months away from its release.

I'm refering to ME2 aaand the demo of two levels.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

The PLC wrote...

Do people seriously want all those useless gun mods back? I hated the fact that I constantly had to 'clean up' my inventory in ME1. it sucked!

The new customization features looks fine!

Well, they are bringing gun mods back. But it probably won't be inventory based. I'm cool if they throw out the inventory as long as they keep the customization depth.

sympathy4saren wrote...

I know stats take away from fps fanboys and the trigger, so try to be sympathetic, folks.

Hey, as an FPS player I pay as much attention to numbers in my FPS games as I do in my RPG games It's just more about TTK and spread than DPS haha.

[Someone With Mass]

Darji wrote...
Oh i think you have missunderstand me here. stats based combat should not depend on you own acc or skills but only on your stats. For example if you have a very high acc you should be able to hit more criticals or even more hits. With low acc you should not be able to make every shot a hit and so on.  This is what I meant with stats based combat. Hope you can understand it now a bit more^^

And why should it be like that? It was annoying as hell to line up a sniper shot in ME1, just because I didn't have the best weapon or all my points spent on that particular skill. There was nothing wrong with my aim, it was just that Shepard could never stop swinging the damn rifle left and right.

And when you have better weapons, you can just throw away the rest, because they're obsolete.
In ME2, you could pick your guns based on preference, and not just stats. There were rifles that had burst mode, fully auto fire or semi-auto fire, and they all had their own unique feel. Unlike the guns in ME1, which just were a copy and paste job with different colors and stats.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 30 juin 2011 - 11:57 .

[Lumikki]

88mphSlayer wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

So, we seem to have again some Bioware bashing thread going, so that some players can went they frustation to about game design what doesn't fit in they gameplay perfectly. People who want to change game to be fit they needs. Without understanding what the game really was and has been in first place.

i'm cool with bioware doing whatever, i just wish people would kind of "make up their minds" on the matter of whether Mass Effect is an rpg, an action/adventure game, a shooter, or etc. because what bioware is saying makes it an rpg isn't a staple of the genre to begin with

I don't really have any issues with Bioware. Because I don't judge them with what type of they games are, I judge them how good they games are.

Meaning every game like DA and ME serie are different, induvidual. How ever, some people treat them like every Biowares game is and should be pure classic RPG. So they judge games based they own idea of perfect game in they head. That's big issue for me, because games should not be judged agaist players own expetations, but as what they really are. They are thinking like every game has to be design the way they like it and nothing else is good enough.

ME serie is action RPG with TPS combat.

DA serie other hand is more classic RPG, even if DA2 did have some action RPG in it.

Modifié par Lumikki, 01 juillet 2011 - 12:07 .

[EternalPink]

Darji wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Darji wrote...

Ok first of all. If they want to make a game with deeper RPG mechanics. The combat needs to be stats based. Otherwise its only a shooter.

Your average brown/bloom/gritty/cover-based/modern fps is actually as much or more stat-driven than your average RPG. http://denkirson.xan.../bad-company-2/

Oh i think you have missunderstand me here. stats based combat should not depend on you own acc or skills but only on your stats. For example if you have a very high acc you should be able to hit more criticals or even more hits. With low acc you should not be able to make every shot a hit and so on.  This is what I meant with stats based combat. Hope you can understand it now a bit more^^


As for storytelling Yes the bar is very high especially with the choice and consequences thing. There are games like the Witcher 2, Deues EX 3 and also Alpha protocol who did a far better jpb than Bioware ever did in the last 10 years.

Also it maye just me but when i think about a character driven story I think more in the JRPG format where you actually have a very character driven story while in ME it can be everyone who saves the world. Thats a big complain in most West RPGs nowdays anyway. Again The Witcher 2 did a great Job inthis aspect.. Because its more Geralt story then about a random hero who saves the world. 

I dont understand how having stat based point and click where offensive/defense values are compared makes a game a RPG, since I've played plenty of games that have that ranging from hex based stratergy games and tactical based squad games to mmo's that have that and they are not RPG's

To me a RPG gives you a compelling reason to hit someone, the choice of who you hit and makes you face the consequences of hitting whoever you decided, this is the part that makes it the RPG not the part that decides whether i successfully hit or not whether it be point and click or twitch

[slimgrin]

Daiyus wrote...

Honestly, I think what Mass Effect needs in terms of "RPG" is OPTIONS. More types of armour, more modifications, more weapons, more evolutions of powers, more choice in the loadout, more choice in your skills.

More options so that everyone has their own ways and means, own styles, own preferences.

Exactly. This was my biggest complaint of ME2. There's no need to even bring up the 'what makes an RPG' argument in this thread. I do know what makes for deep and satisfying gameplay mechanics though. Why would anyone not want that?

Modifié par slimgrin, 30 juin 2011 - 11:58 .

[88mphSlayer]

Lumikki wrote...

88mphSlayer wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

So, we seem to have again some Bioware bashing thread going, so that some players can went they frustation to about game design what doesn't fit in they gameplay perfectly. People who want to change game to be fit they needs. Without understanding what the game really was and has been in first place.

i'm cool with bioware doing whatever, i just wish people would kind of "make up their minds" on the matter of whether Mass Effect is an rpg, an action/adventure game, a shooter, or etc. because what bioware is saying makes it an rpg isn't a staple of the genre to begin with

I don't really have any issues with Bioware. Because I don't judge them with what type of they games are, I judge them how good they games are.

Meaning every game like DA and ME serie are different. How ever, some people threat them like every Biowares game is and should be pure classic RPG. That's big issue for me. They are thinking like every game has to be design the way they like it and nothing else is good enough.

ME serie is action RPG with TPS combat.

DA serie other hand is more classic RPG, even if DA2 did have some action RPG in it.

well that just comes with the territory for being successful by making rpg's that appealed to that audience

personally i don't think mass effect is an rpg, and i'm okay with that

[Darji]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Darji wrote...

Oh i think you have missunderstand me here. stats based combat should not depend on you own acc or skills but only on your stats. For example if you have a very high acc you should be able to hit more criticals or even more hits. With low acc you should not be able to make every shot a hit and so on.  This is what I meant with stats based combat. Hope you can understand it now a bit more^^


As for storytelling Yes the bar is very high especially with the choice and consequences thing. There are games like the Witcher 2, Deues EX 3 and also Alpha protocol who did a far better jpb than Bioware ever did in the last 10 years.

Also it maye just me but when i think about a character driven story I think more in the JRPG format where you actually have a very character driven story while in ME it can be everyone who saves the world. Thats a big complain in most West RPGs nowdays anyway. Again The Witcher 2 did a great Job inthis aspect.. Because its more Geralt story then about a random hero who saves the world. 

RE: Stats, I see what you mean and I think games like that should definitely exist. But in terms of Bioware flagship franchises, that's more of a Dragon Age thing than a Mass Effect thing - Mass Effect is much more of a RPG/shooter-hybrid, IMO.

Yeah, and story-wise I agree that a set protagonist is something I personally find more compelling than a protagonist I design as well. However, a lot of people like the ability to create their own character, and that's another design decision that Bioware made for Mass Effect. But in terms of choices and consequences, I agree with you that they should definitely look at some of the other big RPGs for tips.

No argueing here on both points but as for the stats. Of course ME was more than a shooter than a RPG but if they talk about much deep RPG mechanics I was expecting something like that and not that they will focus more on a "good character driven story" which they actually always tried to focus on in this series. And they never really did that right so far.

. And yes people dont like  a random character you can customize more but then they just shouldnt call it a characterdriven story when its cleary not.. Especially Shepard has no real personality nor does he his character grow in anyway which should be a must in a characterdriven story.

[Gibb_Shepard]

So everyone is truly dead set on getting rid of stats and loot from RPG games now? They're "pointless"?

Oh well, they were fun while they lasted. Bring on the Action-Adventure genre.