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Biowares Take on on deeper RPG mechanics. "Forget about stats and loot. More combat.


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#826
Lumikki

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SalsaDMA wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Could it be that some RPG elements just doesn't fit well in ME style?
What was those common issues in ME1 again for people. (Not asking, just reminding you, how it's all connectect)


The common issue was lousy interfaces.

Rather than redo those, they scrapped the stuff the interfaces were used for...

True that lousy interface was the major issue, but it all begins from loot system, what creates the hole issue.
They tryed to use normal RPG loot system and interface in Mass Effect style game, that was they mistake.

#827
Varen Spectre

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javierabegazo wrote...

If the insults and impolite discourse continue, this gets locked.


Please don't lock the thread that quickly. I haven't seen such an interesting discussion (regardless of whether I agree with most of th posters or not) for a long time. A lot of members went quite into details and provided solid reasoning to back their opinions up. Besides, it's very likely, that somebody would start similar thread/s again anyway and the only difference would be loss of some of the interesting posts. 

If someone violates ToU, please opt for individual repressive measures instead. :mellow:

Modifié par Varen Spectre, 04 juillet 2011 - 03:41 .


#828
ArcanistLibram

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Diablo has stats and loot. It is not an RPG.

#829
Nashiktal

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I am indeed looking forward to seeing how the weapon mods are handled. If done right, and handled with care, it could turn out to be a much better system than both ME1 and 2 together.

However to be that way, the system has to be divisive and not a linear progression like upgrades in both previous games were. If you increase fire rate for a gun, it should lose stability or accuracy. If you increase damage you should lose fire-rate.

It doesn't have to directly Luke my example, but if I get two scopes, they should both have uses and not be a direct upgrade. If it is, then it's no better than the past systems.

#830
Lumikki

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Yeah, it will be interesting to see how they actually does the weapon and armor moding in ME3. Also how deep it is as how much variety it does offer. I also hope it's more about advance + disadvance than just upgrades. Mostly because this is about customation choises, not progression.

Modifié par Lumikki, 04 juillet 2011 - 04:01 .


#831
Tony Gunslinger

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Terror_K wrote...
Not really, because the weapons are too individual and there aren't enough of them, and the choice is always obvious. The Widow and the Viper for instance perform and behave completely different, they're almost like two different weapon types. Do you honestly weigh up the situation ahead of you when choosing these weapons, or do you pick one that "feels the best" to you and pretty much stick with it every time. There's no stats, no additional effects. There's no varied version of the Widow  with one that does more damage but has poor shield bypass, another that has good shield bypass and less damage, or one that's better vs. certain enemies than others. You have to go to a completely different weapon for variation, and when you do it's obvious why.

To be honest, I thought that when the change was made in ME2 to more varied weapons the Sniper Rifles category should have just become a broader category of "Rifles" especially considering the few that no longer act like proper sniper rifles.


In ME2, weapon choices were not obvious. The fact they they do differ so much affects the way you engage in combat and how you build your class skills. A Widow Infiltrator will find cryo ammo not very useful and most would be better off spending points in AP/warp ammo so they can specialize in being a sniper. A Viper is excellent with cryo ammo as it guarantees freezing per shot, and this frees up a slot for SG or AR as their weapon specialization and bonus power, which essentially makes them completely different builds and playstyles.

This effect happens with all the classes. Look at the strategies section for the build variations, and compare them to ME1 build variations.

True, that there were only 2-3 choices in each category, but because of the fact that they differ so much that the choices are more meaningful than choosing between one weapon that is slightly different than another, which is what you originally said you don't like. And because the gun category types already offer +armor or +shield/barrier properties, it makes you think about using your complete weapon setup as opposed to using just one gun.

Another thing with weapons that are 'slightly' different is that it's harder for you to master combining them with powers because you're never really sure how about the performance of the gun. If you picked up a slightly less powerful Claymore-ish weapon, you're not as sure about one-shotting a goon, and therefore you can't really make long-term strategies. The more randomness of your abilities and attacks are, the less you're able to plan ahead, and then that's where the game becomes nothing more than a stupid shooter because you're doing is reacting, not planning.

And yes, the Viper does more damage against shields than the Widow.


Aside from all the in-your-face pop-ups and interfaces, there's the research/upgrade system that just does all the work for you without any real input in a completely linear fashion, allowing you to god-mod every item you have far too easily. There's no trade-offs or downsides, it's all just clicking the same button over and over as you find the upgrades as it maxes out everything without the player needing to use a single grey-cell. There's the condescending messages on the loading screens, the annoying "Press and Hold (F) to end mission" prompt that won't go away, and the unsubtle "Mission complete" screens. The weapon descriptions tell you with no subtelty "This weapon is great at this. Use it for this!" It treats you like you've never played an RPG before with its overall design, and hides stats and other info in case it scares players away. The game feels like a constant tutorial from beginning until end, and like it's putting you in a high-chair with a bib as it spoons gameplay into you going, "here comes the RPG elements! Zooooom!" The whole thing is like a children's book.


In ME1, weapons have 3 slots, armor have slots, there are 7 characters and they carry 4 weapons each. If you are doing an analysis of player UI actions here's the breakdown of maximum tasks players did after every mission:

1) Conversations with Squadmates x 6 times
2) Manage armor x 7 = times
3) Manage armor upgrades x 2 slots x 7 = 14 times
4) Manage weapons x 7 x 4 weapons = 28 times
5) Manage weapon upgrades x 3 slots x 7 squamates x 4 weapons = 84 times
6) Manage omnitools for Shepard / Kaiden / Garrus / Tali / LIara = 5 times
7) Manage bioamps for Shpard / Kaiden / Liara / Wrex = 4 times
8) Manage grenade upgrades
9) Go to Requisitions Officer to see new items. If I don't like the stuff, I reload until I do.
10) Sell stuff that I deem to outdated or duplicated.
11) Manage skill points


Compare this with ME2:

1) Conversations with Squadmates x 10 (Kasumi and Zaeed excluded)
2) Conversations with Crew x 5 (Joker, Engineer Donnelly, Kelly, Chakwas, Gardner)
3) Manage skill points
4) Check for upgrades status
5) Check for squadmates status / swap outfits x 12
6) Research available upgrades
7) Manage weapons x 12 squadmates x 2 weapon slots
8) Manage weapons for myself (4 max weapon slots + Heavy Weapon)
9) Manage armor pieces for myself
10) Manage casual outfit

In other words, ME2 was structured so that you're using most of your brainpower on performing actions and choices that matter. There was less middle-management and red tape you had to get past in order to do the things you want to do. When you're upgrading stuff in ME1, for the majority of the time you were looking at stats and see which number is higher, there is nothing 'deep' about this. Upgrades are gonna upgrade. You want micromanage every tiny detail, I can propose the idea of tweaking your omnitool with the following sliders:

- Damage output
- Duration
- Area effect
- Controller chip
- Elemental damage boosters
- Battery cell
- Eezo generator
- Neural interface optimization

Sounds great, right? I love tweaking stuff, some of the games I've played the most are Borderlands, Forza, and Armored Core. I know how loot, customization, tweaking works, I know the joy of it. But in Mass Effect, they are secondary features that help the gameplay, but can also bog down if they go overboard. Mass Effect is not a game where the strategy is to upgrade your way to victory. It's an action RPG, it wants you to focus on the story, the combat in real time, and not spend the majority of your playing time number crunching. I love this stuff, but I also know what the overall vision of a creative entity and what fits into it and what doesn't. You may want to feel like a god with 50 powers instantly at your disposal, and for certain games it will work, but for others it won't. The reason for that is way beyond mechanical things like loot and ammo clips.

So if you think a deep RPG consists of micromanaging items that aren't very meaningful, then you believe in a game where it rewards you with grinding, and that's not what Mass Effect is going for. In ME, the puzzles are on the battlefield and on the worlds you interact with, not in the inventory screen and not in some menu interface existing on a level between the game world and your monitor.


Aside from the fact that there's no such thing as a non-combat skill any more and that's all the game is about, there's the fact that ME2 is barely any different: with so few powers you end up with only one skill neglected most of the time, unless you end up in one of those broken builds with leftover points to spend. With classes being forced to use all the weapons they can and thermal clips dictating the need to switch, you can't build weapon-specific classes like you could in ME1 (e.g. I had two different Vanguards in ME1: a pistol-wielding long ranger and a close-quarters shotgun wielder. Now they're both the same in ME2 since both use both weapons, and I can't choose to ignore or leave one behind due to arbritrary restrictions).

The different power evolutions aren't even that different: it's always just a case of the power being exactly the same, but simply "more damage or more defense" or "hurt single enemy or lots of enemies" or "up damage or up cooldown" Simply put, the powers don't actually evolve that much at all and don't become that different, despite the concept of branching powers being a nice one.

You can't break a character build beyond leaving yourself with leftover points. Poor builds in ME1 could make the game extremely difficult for you, especially in the middling sections. Almost no powers/skills in ME2 affect your ability to survive or handle a weapon, so you're always going to be great and investing points unwisely isn't going to bork your character or have you suffering at any point. Assigning points doesn't really matter that much because you're going to be just as combat capable simply using your weapons: it might simply take a bit longer.


I've just answered most of this in my first paragraph about character build variety.

But in regard to power evolutions, they do affect how you play. Area effect vs. more damage changes the role of the power. Passives like power duration affects drone, singularity, cryo ammo/blast, NS, dominate, AI hacking. My infiltrator uses Incinerate as a crowd control ability, not as a damager, so therefore I evolved to the area version, which affects enemy groups. On the other hand, my Engineer uses Heavy Incinerate specifically as a damager because I don't have a sniper rifle when dealing with heavily armored enemies. But when I'm fighting husks, I respec to Blast so I can strip multiple groups of their armor. Heavy Overload makes things explode, not good for CQC builds. These evolutions matter.

#832
Hulk Hsieh

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If the RPG element in ME2 is so shallow, why it isn't possible to make RPG deeper in ME3, without resorting to loot and stats?

#833
AngelicMachinery

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Hulk Hsieh wrote...

If the RPG element in ME2 is so shallow, why it isn't possible to make RPG deeper in ME3, without resorting to loot and stats?


Has anyone told you your dwarf looks like Jack Black?

And no,  people who want a hard core RPG experince will NEVER relent unless they can juggle around numbers and loot.

#834
Tony Gunslinger

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SalsaDMA wrote...
Regenerating shields and enemies spreading from each other means that picking them off fully one at a time is the most efficient way of dealing with them. Especially when a multitude of the powers aren't usable on shielded enemies.


I've before said that you can use guns and powers at the same time. One whiff of your SMG tears down shields in a second, activate incinerate/pull/throw/NS/CB and they're done.

Engineer, I used incenerate and combat drone. And that's about it. Sure, I used my guns every now and then, but incinerate could curve corners and hit enemies behind obstacles, bullets couldn't.


And what do you after you've launched incinerate? Sit there and look at the burning effect? Or did you get up and rush into his face while you had the chance?


Infiltrator I used my sniper rifle alot because of the built in time dilation. Interestingly enough, I used Geth shield technology as my most used power as an infiltrator, which should show something about the lacklustre powers (since it's not even an infiltrator ability, but was my bonus ability) which you earlier claimed were more interesting since they warranted the GCD.


Or you could have used ED/Reave while you're under sniper scope to get a shield/health boost and damage the enemy at the same time, before you finish him off with your SR, and they only cost 6 secs of CD, much better than GSB.

GCD makes sense when the options you can use are equally interesting. If one option surpasses the others, GCD just means that the less optimal options never get used. ME2 suffered ALOT from this. Add that alot of the powers were useless as long as shields were up, and it gets even worse.


You've been on this board long enough to not be aware of the strategy section. "Most powers are useless because of shields" is the most debunked myth ever. This is a side effect of believing ME2 is a shooter, and you play it like a shooter, and you don't combine powers and guns to begin with. That's the price of freedom in playstyle: you can claim your own way is the best way.

Again, you're free to play however you like, but the fact is the game doesn't handhold you to learn advanced ways of playing the game on the hardest difficulty, which is the complete opposite of "ME is dumbed down for the masses." ME would be dumbed down if the game forces you build character and use powers in a specific way, which is essentially what you're asking for.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 04 juillet 2011 - 04:24 .


#835
Lumikki

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Hulk Hsieh wrote...

If the RPG element in ME2 is so shallow, why it isn't possible to make RPG deeper in ME3, without resorting to loot and stats?

It isn't, that what Bioware is doing for ME3, making RPG little deeper.

PS: Of course, I'm not sure if it was real motive for some players who wants deeper RPG. They may look sertain type of gameplay what deeper RPG doesn't provide, if it's not done sertain ways.

Modifié par Lumikki, 04 juillet 2011 - 04:33 .


#836
Medhia Nox

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@AngelicMachinery - not entirely true. I'm a certified RP snob, and a proud one.

All I want are story and character development, but of the literary sort.

Stats and loot are fun and fine to add - but they don't mean "RPG" to me.

====

ME 1 & 2 are pretty good stories, nothing spectacular - but video games are young, and most movies are Blockbuster trash (along with a heck of a lot of books). I can hardly hold it against video games for pandering to the lower common denominator.

And yeah - I enjoy a good PoS entertainment movie too - just like junk food.

====

More storytelling complexity - and definitely more complex characters (especially the main character - many NPCs seem to have the makings of far deeper storylines than the MC) - I would say anyone who enjoys RPGs should want these.

#837
Gatt9

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Phaedon wrote...

Making choices is exclusive to RPGs.

Active, modifiable stats, also exist in simulation games, and actually in a much larger degree.


Not at all Phaedon.  Choices are a narrative and interactivity tool,  not an RPG feature.  Most other genres don't implement it because people are so used to linear runs that they just accept the "One-path through".

Or to put it more simply,  if other genres bothered with stories longer than a paragraph,  you'd find choices existing in them as well.

I don't know. I understand you point, but.

Consider what Bioware is trying to do with ME3. They are trying to increase customation options in ME3, but they don't do it with loot and stats in ME3. You never asked WHY?

Could it be that some RPG elements just doesn't fit well in ME style?
What was those common issues in ME1 again for people. (Not asking, just reminding you, how it's all connectect)


Which style is that?  ME style?  or ME2 style?  Which one is proper,  because they're two very different systems.  One made with and one made without EA's interference.

I'd venture that the system implemented without outside influence is the proper one.

became pointless because what Casey said was meaning for deeper rpg experience: character progression, decision making on storyline, exploration, combat. And some people went here: "noooooo, casey's wrong, these are not necessarilly mechanics that will make the rpg aspect deeper, we want stats and loot". And then "noooooo, these are the mechanics that will make a deeper rpg yes". And then "nooooo, these are not core rpg aspects, ME is a shooter/tps for these reasons". And then "nooooo, ME is an RPG because of this, this, and that". And then "nooooooo, these are the RPG mechanics blablablabla". It's going nowhere and the original discussion's gone for a while


Actually,  that's not what Casey said.  He said nothing about character progression,  which is the issue at hand. 

The thing is, I don't think you'll change Casey's vision now. It's too late for that. With Christina out and a new lead gameplay designer, maybe one thing or two will be added or changed, there's time for that, but I don't think much because Christina's work is widely considered to be successful even though you will say not and she was in charge for a long time of development. If in the end you're not satisfied with it, and the Mass Effect experience isn't in your conception deep to be entertaining enough, sell it to someone if possible and go look elsewhere


I doubt her work is considered successfull.  I don't think anyone would look at a constantly repeating corridor run,  with 1990's era AI,  most of which plays out the same straight down to the same end bossess,  and consider it a success.

Sure,  the gaming press plays it up well enough.  They did the same with Black and White too,  which IIRC was also an EA release,  then 5 years later the stories changed to "Sorry we were wrong about that game!".  But at the end,  even for a TPS,  the gameplay was bland,  uninspired,  and generally quite weak.  I would imagine that when the microphone is off,  especially amongst developers,  it's held up as a bad implementation.

#838
Il Divo

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Gatt9 wrote..

Or to put it more simply,  if other genres bothered with stories longer than a paragraph,  you'd find choices existing in them as well.


More than a few of them do have stories longer than a paragraph. I'll start linking them for you, if you'd like. RPGs still remain the only games with interactive stories and dialogue. Perhaps because some of us consider it a feature of the RPG?

#839
Lumikki

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Gatt9 wrote...


I don't know. I understand you point, but.

Consider what Bioware is trying to do with ME3. They are trying to increase customation options in ME3, but they don't do it with loot and stats in ME3. You never asked WHY?

Could it be that some RPG elements just doesn't fit well in ME style?
What was those common issues in ME1 again for people. (Not asking, just reminding you, how it's all connectect)


Which style is that?  ME style?  or ME2 style?  Which one is proper,  because they're two very different systems.  One made with and one made without EA's interference.

I'd venture that the system implemented without outside influence is the proper one.

Both as they are same style if you look them in sertain style direction.

That's -> Storytelling cinematic action RPG with TPS combat in Mass Effect universe with dialogs and voice acting.

The difference only exist if you go in gameplay system and start comparing technical structure and how they are done.
It's view point thing, do you look only games differences or also similarities.

Modifié par Lumikki, 04 juillet 2011 - 04:51 .


#840
Gatt9

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Tony Gunslinger wrote...
Compare this with ME2:

1) Conversations with Squadmates x 10 (Kasumi and Zaeed excluded)
2) Conversations with Crew x 5 (Joker, Engineer Donnelly, Kelly, Chakwas, Gardner)
3) Manage skill points
4) Check for upgrades status
5) Check for squadmates status / swap outfits x 12
6) Research available upgrades
7) Manage weapons x 12 squadmates x 2 weapon slots
8) Manage weapons for myself (4 max weapon slots + Heavy Weapon)
9) Manage armor pieces for myself
10) Manage casual outfit

In other words, ME2 was structured so that you're using most of your brainpower on performing actions and choices that matter. There was less middle-management and red tape you had to get past in order to do the things you want to do. When you're upgrading stuff in ME1, for the majority of the time you were looking at stats and see which number is higher, there is nothing 'deep' about this. Upgrades are gonna upgrade. You want micromanage every tiny detail, I can propose the idea of tweaking your omnitool with the following sliders:


Lets see...

1.  Ok
2.  Ok
3.  Not really,  there was no real need to think or focus upon it.  Skill points did nothing outside of combat,  and really didn't do much in combat.  All they did was boost attacks slightly.  There was never any tradeoff,  so you could just blindly click and be just fine.
4.  Not certain what you're refering to there,  if you mean the upgrade history,  that was pretty pointless.
5.  Seriously?  Clicking a button to switch between two suits of clothes is a worthwhile option?
6.  Which once again was pretty pointless,  since the YMIR you killed in the first mission would be what you killed when you were level 30.  The very first mission you show you can kill everything in the game without touching the skills.
7.  Why bother?  For the entire game I went with whatever the game decided was the best weapon,  and did perfectly fine.  So did my companions.  There was never any reason to bother.
8.  As above.
9.  Why bother?  5% is so irrelevant that there's no point in touching the system.  Find a look you like,  and leave it there,  without any reason to ever touch it.
10.  Really?  Picking from one of 3 outfits is an important feature?  Pick one at the begining of the game and leave it,  or go with the default and never notice it.

I've just answered most of this in my first paragraph about character build variety.

But in regard to power evolutions, they do affect how you play. Area effect vs. more damage changes the role of the power. Passives like power duration affects drone, singularity, cryo ammo/blast, NS, dominate, AI hacking. My infiltrator uses Incinerate as a crowd control ability, not as a damager, so therefore I evolved to the area version, which affects enemy groups. On the other hand, my Engineer uses Heavy Incinerate specifically as a damager because I don't have a sniper rifle when dealing with heavily armored enemies. But when I'm fighting husks, I respec to Blast so I can strip multiple groups of their armor. Heavy Overload makes things explode, not good for CQC builds. These evolutions matter.


I put disrupter bullets in my gun at the begining of the game,  and left them there for the entire game,  without ever changing it.  The only things I ever used was that and Geth Shield Boost.  There was never a reason to bother,  one was the same as the other.

None of the skill tree made a difference,  I never used or needed any of it other than those two skills.

#841
SalsaDMA

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Tony Gunslinger wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...
Regenerating shields and enemies spreading from each other means that picking them off fully one at a time is the most efficient way of dealing with them. Especially when a multitude of the powers aren't usable on shielded enemies.


I've before said that you can use guns and powers at the same time. One whiff of your SMG tears down shields in a second, activate incinerate/pull/throw/NS/CB and they're done.

Engineer, I used incenerate and combat drone. And that's about it. Sure, I used my guns every now and then, but incinerate could curve corners and hit enemies behind obstacles, bullets couldn't.


And what do you after you've launched incinerate? Sit there and look at the burning effect? Or did you get up and rush into his face while you had the chance?


I was hugging the cover cause the friends of my target would tear me a new one if I stayed up.

Maybe your game acted different than mine, but whenever I stayed out of cover longer than it took to fire a few shots or launch a power, I would be toast. And GCD of powers I used often flowed with the 'rythm' of when I could pop up again, so....

I cannot fathom how you can claim GCD added to the game, when all it did was restrict you from using anything but the most optimal powers. It killed diversity while playing, where they should have used a mechanic instead that encouraged diversity of skill usage.

#842
JayhartRIC

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SalsaDMA wrote...

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...
Regenerating shields and enemies spreading from each other means that picking them off fully one at a time is the most efficient way of dealing with them. Especially when a multitude of the powers aren't usable on shielded enemies.


I've before said that you can use guns and powers at the same time. One whiff of your SMG tears down shields in a second, activate incinerate/pull/throw/NS/CB and they're done.

Engineer, I used incenerate and combat drone. And that's about it. Sure, I used my guns every now and then, but incinerate could curve corners and hit enemies behind obstacles, bullets couldn't.


And what do you after you've launched incinerate? Sit there and look at the burning effect? Or did you get up and rush into his face while you had the chance?


I was hugging the cover cause the friends of my target would tear me a new one if I stayed up.

Maybe your game acted different than mine, but whenever I stayed out of cover longer than it took to fire a few shots or launch a power, I would be toast. And GCD of powers I used often flowed with the 'rythm' of when I could pop up again, so....

I cannot fathom how you can claim GCD added to the game, when all it did was restrict you from using anything but the most optimal powers. It killed diversity while playing, where they should have used a mechanic instead that encouraged diversity of skill usage.


*inserts youtube vid of Engineer owning and tells you to play better*

#843
SalsaDMA

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Il Divo wrote...

Gatt9 wrote..

Or to put it more simply,  if other genres bothered with stories longer than a paragraph,  you'd find choices existing in them as well.


More than a few of them do have stories longer than a paragraph. I'll start linking them for you, if you'd like. RPGs still remain the only games with interactive stories and dialogue. Perhaps because some of us consider it a feature of the RPG?


And some of them do have choices yet aren't rpgs.

Dawn of War 2 is the first that springs to mind here since I used that game as an example in another thread ages ago.

#844
Il Divo

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Gatt9 wrote...

3.  Not really,  there was no real need to think or focus upon it. 


I'm hoping by this you don't mean that Mass Effect's skill system required any thought? Remember 1% pistol damage?

Skill points did nothing outside of combat,  and really didn't do much in combat. 


Level 4 upgrades would disagree with you.

All they did was boost attacks slightly. 


I'm guessing you never upgraded your skills then.

#845
AlanC9

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Well, adventure games typically had pretty complicated stories -- past tense because the genre's more-or-less defunct, unless you want to buy Gatt9's argument that Bio's actually making adventure games rather than RPGs. The distinction, of course, is that adventure games have stories with no interaction.

If an adventure game had a story with interaction, would that make it an RPG? By some posters' definition, I guess so.

The really fundamental question here, I think, is what the genre definitions are supposed to do for us. Gatt9's definitions are workable, but I don't find them personally useful. A useful definition, to me, would be one that excluded Diablo but did include, say, Wing Commander 4 at the far end.

Modifié par AlanC9, 04 juillet 2011 - 04:54 .


#846
Il Divo

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SalsaDMA wrote...

And some of them do have choices yet aren't rpgs.

Dawn of War 2 is the first that springs to mind here since I used that game as an example in another thread ages ago.


Never played it, although wikipedia does seem to list it as an RTS/RPG. Unfortunately for all of us, there does not remain any definition which is absolute. Some like to classify the dialogue/choices/morality as 'adventure game elements'.

Yet, games like Baldur's Gate, Planescape, and KotOR were never marketed as 'RPG/Adventure games', yet have a huge emphasis on dialogue. This alone causes separate problems.

#847
SalsaDMA

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JayhartRIC wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...
Regenerating shields and enemies spreading from each other means that picking them off fully one at a time is the most efficient way of dealing with them. Especially when a multitude of the powers aren't usable on shielded enemies.


I've before said that you can use guns and powers at the same time. One whiff of your SMG tears down shields in a second, activate incinerate/pull/throw/NS/CB and they're done.

Engineer, I used incenerate and combat drone. And that's about it. Sure, I used my guns every now and then, but incinerate could curve corners and hit enemies behind obstacles, bullets couldn't.


And what do you after you've launched incinerate? Sit there and look at the burning effect? Or did you get up and rush into his face while you had the chance?


I was hugging the cover cause the friends of my target would tear me a new one if I stayed up.

Maybe your game acted different than mine, but whenever I stayed out of cover longer than it took to fire a few shots or launch a power, I would be toast. And GCD of powers I used often flowed with the 'rythm' of when I could pop up again, so....

I cannot fathom how you can claim GCD added to the game, when all it did was restrict you from using anything but the most optimal powers. It killed diversity while playing, where they should have used a mechanic instead that encouraged diversity of skill usage.


*inserts youtube vid of Engineer owning and tells you to play better*


It was good enough to complete the game on insanity, so I fail to see the need to play in some way that someone else deems 'better' from a subjective point of view regarding aestethics.

#848
Gatt9

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Il Divo wrote...

Gatt9 wrote..

Or to put it more simply,  if other genres bothered with stories longer than a paragraph,  you'd find choices existing in them as well.


More than a few of them do have stories longer than a paragraph. I'll start linking them for you, if you'd like. RPGs still remain the only games with interactive stories and dialogue. Perhaps because some of us consider it a feature of the RPG?


Go for it.

Could you do me a favor though,  and start with Wing Commander 3?  It's not even close to an RPG,  yet it featured choices that affected the game's outcome 5 years before Bioware and Black Isle made it popular.

Both as they are same style if you look them in sertain style direction.

That's -> cinematic action RPG with TPS combat in Mass Effect universe.

The difference only exist if you go in gameplay system and start comparing technical structure and how they are done.


Mmmm...

I'd disagree based on the premise that ME's gameplay system involved non-combat skills as well as combat skills,  while ME2's gameplay system was entirely combat driven. 

I also have to caution,  I do not see any meaning in the word "Cinematic",  the RPG elements are identical to every other Bioware game and the combat is very representative of any given TPS,  I do not see what that word is describing and how it's any different from anything else in gaming.  I'd venture it's a buzzword like "Immersive" without any real meaning or difference in the actual game.

#849
Lumikki

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Gatt9 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Both as they are same style if you look them in sertain style direction.

That's -> Storytelling cinematic action RPG with TPS combat in Mass Effect universe with dialogs and voice acting.

The difference only exist if you go in gameplay system and start comparing technical structure and how they are done. It's view point thing, do you look only games differences or also similarities..


Mmmm...

I'd disagree based on the premise that ME's gameplay system involved non-combat skills as well as combat skills,  while ME2's gameplay system was entirely combat driven. 

I also have to caution,  I do not see any meaning in the word "Cinematic",  the RPG elements are identical to every other Bioware game and the combat is very representative of any given TPS,  I do not see what that word is describing and how it's any different from anything else in gaming.  I'd venture it's a buzzword like "Immersive" without any real meaning or difference in the actual game.

Too bad, because you seem to looking games differences and not see the similarities. I feel sad, because you are missing hole main point of the Mass Effect serie and treat them like just another RPG.

ME1 non-combat skills? How important was non-combat skill related gameplay in ME1 and how much it had it?

Modifié par Lumikki, 04 juillet 2011 - 05:07 .


#850
JayhartRIC

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I think they are referring to the dialogue system when they say "cinematic." Bioware's strength has always been their stories. ME1 had the most cinematic dialogue system, and ME 2 enhanced it with interupts. The only other game I've even seen attempt it is Alpha Protocol, which did that part well. Too bad actually playing the game sucked. I can't go back to Fallout cause the conversations look so lifeless in comparison to Mass Effect.