3223 réponses à ce sujet

[Lumikki]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

I wasn't trying to dismiss every argument in favour of RPGs elements as invalid. Many of them are valid as you say. I just feel that many of the comlaints are geared around the massive loss of RPG elements from ME1 to ME2 when really there weren't many RPGs features in ME1. The difference between the games wasn't all that big, but Bioware made a massive fuss about them and talked about them all through the build-up to ME2, making the changes seem far bigger than they actually are.

I don't know. This depense what view point you look at it.

How ever, you are right some differences in features aren't really that big than people think, but if you look hole picture as hole game, I think the difference is pretty big. Mostly because there was a lot of changes and some of them where important changes, what affected hole gameplay a lot. Also some changed what people don't even talk much had bigger impact in hole picture than people even know.

Modifié par Lumikki, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:21 .

[Sidney]

Candidate 88766 wrote...
So actually the approach Bioware took with ME1 and ME2 really isn't that much of a departure from their previous games, more of an enhancement of it? It took cinematic gaming to the next level - their character interaction and conversation system was pretty much revolutionary in ME1.

People also tend to forget (wrongly) Jade Empire which had a super stripped down looting/inventory system and a more twitch-action oriented combat system.  Really the JE combat system was grand with the ability to swap forms on the fly and such and I loved not having to putz around with trash looting.

[littlezack]

 When you think about it, JE and ME2 are similar in a lot of ways, actually. Has anybody ever accused Jade Empire of not being an RPG?

[Il Divo]

littlezack wrote...

 When you think about it, JE and ME2 are similar in a lot of ways, actually. Has anybody ever accused Jade Empire of not being an RPG?

Alot of people tend to ignore Jade Empire when accusing EA of destroying Bioware.

It's actually interesting when you think about it because Bioware is regarded as a top notch RPG developer, yet their track record doesn't indicate that they ever designed in depth RPG mechanics to start with; they've almost always placed more emphasis on the interactive story/characters.

The Baldur's Gate series, Neverwinter Nights, and KotOR (with the exception of Force powers) were all completely ripped out from Dungeons and Dragons, 2e and 3e.

On the other hand, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, and Mass Effect 2 all featured very basic combat systems with greater emphasis on player reflexes.
 
The only outlier we really have is Dragon Age: Origins (also DA2, to a lesser extent) where Bioware actually designed a detailed rules system. All their other rules systems have either been borrowed from DnD or extremely basic to understand.

Modifié par Il Divo, 08 juillet 2011 - 04:03 .

[Candidate 88766]

littlezack wrote...

 When you think about it, JE and ME2 are similar in a lot of ways, actually. Has anybody ever accused Jade Empire of not being an RPG?

Sidney wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...
So actually the approach Bioware took with ME1 and ME2 really isn't that much of a departure from their previous games, more of an enhancement of it? It took cinematic gaming to the next level - their character interaction and conversation system was pretty much revolutionary in ME1.

People also tend to forget (wrongly) Jade Empire which had a super stripped down looting/inventory system and a more twitch-action oriented combat system.  Really the JE combat system was grand with the ability to swap forms on the fly and such and I loved not having to putz around with trash looting.

Its because ME2 is newer and Jade Empire can be looked back on with those wonderful rose-tinted spectacles. I imagine people complained about Jade Empire when it was new. From what I've played of it, neither Mass Effect game is a big departure from the style of RPG they went for with Jade Empire. 

[Candidate 88766]

Il Divo wrote...

littlezack wrote...

 When you think about it, JE and ME2 are similar in a lot of ways, actually. Has anybody ever accused Jade Empire of not being an RPG?

Alot of people tend to ignore Jade Empire when accusing EA of destroying Bioware.

It's actually interesting when you think about it because Bioware is regarded as a top notch RPG developer, yet their track record doesn't indicate that they ever designed in depth RPG mechanics to start with; they've almost always placed more emphasis on the interactive story/characters.

The Baldur's Gate series, Neverwinter Nights, and KotOR (with the exception of Force powers) were all completely ripped out from Dungeons and Dragons, 2e and 3e.

On the other hand, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, and Mass Effect 2 all featured very basic combat systems with greater emphasis on player reflexes.
 
The only outlier we really have is Dragon Age: Origins (also DA2, to a lesser extent) where Bioware actually designed a detailed rules system. All their other rules systems have either been borrowed from DnD or extremely basic to understand.

Thats a very good point. People say EA has made Bioware betray their 'RPG roots', but in actual fact their games haven't changed that much at all.

Bioware makes great games. They don't necessarily make good RPGs, at least in the traditional sense. Frankly, I think Bioware is better because they don't try to forge their games around traditional models, they cherry pick features from multiple genres depending on their relevance to the game, not because the genre demands it.

[Sidney]

Il Divo wrote...

The Baldur's Gate series, Neverwinter Nights, and KotOR (with the exception of Force powers) were all completely ripped out from Dungeons and Dragons, 2e and 3e.

Well the 3e ruleset isn't really advanced either. You have a very limited set of skills to work with. By and large you are rolling with autoattacks for most of your characters other than spell casters. 3e's handling of armor is simplistic and frankly wrong.

KoTOR was a much more elaborate set of rules sitting on top of a D20 system.

[Il Divo]

Sidney wrote...


Well the 3e ruleset isn't really advanced either. You have a very limited set of skills to work with. By and large you are rolling with autoattacks for most of your characters other than spell casters. 3e's handling of armor is simplistic and frankly wrong. 

Advanced is probably the wrong word to use here, since it seems to imply that there's something complicated. 'Intricate' might be a better term. Comparatively speaking, the rules of DnD (even in video games) have greater detail than JE, ME, or ME2.

Ex: the role of attributes, spell-casting, leveling system, etc.

KoTOR was a much more elaborate set of rules sitting on top of a D20 system.

How do you figure? KotOR follows 3e exactly, aside from regenerating force points.

Modifié par Il Divo, 08 juillet 2011 - 04:15 .

[Sidney]

Il Divo wrote...

How do you figure? KotOR follows 3e exactly, aside from regenerating force points.

A lot more skill options and evolutions for the non-spell casters for example being the main one.

I still think 3E was a simple mechansim overall because it had to be. It wasn't designed for the power of a computer but for a bunch of (likely) guys sitting around a table rolling a die. You just can't have as many variables running around under the covers because it is designed for a human scale.

[Il Divo]

Sidney wrote...


A lot more skill options and evolutions for the non-spell casters for example being the main one.

The skill options I'd forgotten about, good call. I thought the system there was well-handled. Any examples you had in mind for the non-spellcasters?

I still think 3E was a simple mechansim overall because it had to be. It wasn't designed for the power of a computer but for a bunch of (likely) guys sitting around a table rolling a die. You just can't have as many variables running around under the covers because it is designed for a human scale.

True enough, I'll always be a 3E fanboy.

Modifié par Il Divo, 08 juillet 2011 - 04:26 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

slimgrin wrote...

All this science for a retcon?

The first Mass Effect scored pretty well on Moh's Scale of Sci-Fi Hardness.  As such, it attracted fans of hard science fiction, and those fans care about the science.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sidney wrote...

KoTOR was a much more elaborate set of rules sitting on top of a D20 system.

I never thought the d20 system suited Star Wars, though.

The earlier d6 system was, I think, much better.

[vader da slayer]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

littlezack wrote...

 When you think about it, JE and ME2 are similar in a lot of ways, actually. Has anybody ever accused Jade Empire of not being an RPG?

Alot of people tend to ignore Jade Empire when accusing EA of destroying Bioware.

It's actually interesting when you think about it because Bioware is regarded as a top notch RPG developer, yet their track record doesn't indicate that they ever designed in depth RPG mechanics to start with; they've almost always placed more emphasis on the interactive story/characters.

The Baldur's Gate series, Neverwinter Nights, and KotOR (with the exception of Force powers) were all completely ripped out from Dungeons and Dragons, 2e and 3e.

On the other hand, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, and Mass Effect 2 all featured very basic combat systems with greater emphasis on player reflexes.
 
The only outlier we really have is Dragon Age: Origins (also DA2, to a lesser extent) where Bioware actually designed a detailed rules system. All their other rules systems have either been borrowed from DnD or extremely basic to understand.

Thats a very good point. People say EA has made Bioware betray their 'RPG roots', but in actual fact their games haven't changed that much at all.

Bioware makes great games. They don't necessarily make good RPGs, at least in the traditional sense. Frankly, I think Bioware is better because they don't try to forge their games around traditional models, they cherry pick features from multiple genres depending on their relevance to the game, not because the genre demands it.

ladies and gentlemen we have a winner. people need to remember that if a game isn't fun no one will play it so trying to force the d20 style of "dice rolls" into the ME universe with enless inventory list wouldn't make the game more fun, as seen with the inventory list more annoying, so trying to foce that into a system that it wouldn't work in doesn't make sense. when making a game you have to keep in mind that it needs to be fun to play.

[vader da slayer]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Sidney wrote...

KoTOR was a much more elaborate set of rules sitting on top of a D20 system.

I never thought the d20 system suited Star Wars, though.

The earlier d6 system was, I think, much better.

I for once do agree with you. imo the "invisible dice roll" was kinda out of place in KotOR and hope they arne't using it in TOR.

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

slimgrin wrote...
All this science for a retcon?

The first Mass Effect scored pretty well on Moh's Scale of Sci-Fi Hardness.  As such, it attracted fans of hard science fiction, and those fans care about the science.

If you start talking about thermodynamics in your game, you better get it right. Read: heat sinks. I know that writers aren't scientists but they could have maybe consulted a mechanical engineer to test out how stupid-proof the idea was. I mean, really sit and think about how those clips are supposed to work.

The gun gets hot, so there's a big lump of metal inside the gun. This big lump of metal takes on a lot of the heat. When a predetermined temperature is reached, the gun ejects the clip. Insert new clip and you're good to go.

Some fundamental problems with this.
1. The gun is constantly cooling when not firing. So, really your ammo count should still be automatically rising when you aren't actively firing the weapon. The clip is not a magazine, it's thermal body.
2. Cooling gun barrels with water jackets is something already in practice with present heavy weapons. Works just like the radiator for your car. Except it tends to be too big to carry around on the battle field very much.
3. Heat transfer from metal to a metal heat sink typically involves surface area for heat radiation and rapid cooling. You need some way to remove the heat from the object. You can't pump heat away from the weapon and into the clip. They will be at the same temperature. So ejecting a spent clip won't actually cool the weapon, but inserting a cold clip will. But then you have to wait for heat transfer from the weapon to the cold clip.
4. For heat transfer to happen between two thermal bodies you need a direct fluid contact or a heat exchanger. You cannot have adequate direct fluid contact since the object is specified to only clip into place.

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

If you start talking about thermodynamics in your game, you better get it right. Read: heat sinks. I know that writers aren't scientists but they could have maybe consulted a mechanical engineer to test out how stupid-proof the idea was. I mean, really sit and think about how those clips are supposed to work.

I agree entirely.  The ME2 heat sinks were idiotic.

Some fundamental problems with this.
1. The gun is constantly cooling when not firing. So, really your ammo count should still be automatically rising when you aren't actively firing the weapon. The clip is not a magazine, it's thermal body.

I found this very confusing when I first played ME2.  I didn't understand why the gun didn't cool down on its own when I wasn't using it.

3. Heat transfer from metal to a metal heat sink typically involves surface area for heat radiation and rapid cooling. You need some way to remove the heat from the object. You can't pump heat away from the weapon and into the clip.

You could if you used a heat pump (like a refrigerator does), but that wouldn't be especially quick either.

[Sidney]

the_one_54321 wrote...

The gun gets hot, so there's a big lump of metal inside the gun. This big lump of metal takes on a lot of the heat. When a predetermined temperature is reached, the gun ejects the clip. Insert new clip and you're good to go. 

Yeah but the whole overheating mechanism is dumb anyways. There is no reason the heat from one sniper round or shotgun shell should be so much more than the heat from an assault rifle round and there's no concievable reason an HE round produces +500% heat.

[Sylvius the Mad]

vader da slayer wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Sidney wrote...

KoTOR was a much more elaborate set of rules sitting on top of a D20 system.

I never thought the d20 system suited Star Wars, though.

The earlier d6 system was, I think, much better.

I for once do agree with you. imo the "invisible dice roll" was kinda out of place in KotOR and hope they arne't using it in TOR.

You do realise I was proposing a different dice-rolling system, right?

[Arppis]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

vader da slayer wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Sidney wrote...

KoTOR was a much more elaborate set of rules sitting on top of a D20 system.

I never thought the d20 system suited Star Wars, though.

The earlier d6 system was, I think, much better.

I for once do agree with you. imo the "invisible dice roll" was kinda out of place in KotOR and hope they arne't using it in TOR.

You do realise I was proposing a different dice-rolling system, right?

I should check this d6-system out. I've only heard about it. But the d20 suited me really well, especialy the latest rule set. You could do everything that is expected of Star Wars character.

[Lumikki]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Some fundamental problems with this.
1. The gun is constantly cooling when not firing. So, really your ammo count should still be automatically rising when you aren't actively firing the weapon. The clip is not a magazine, it's thermal body.
2. Cooling gun barrels with water jackets is something already in practice with present heavy weapons. Works just like the radiator for your car. Except it tends to be too big to carry around on the battle field very much.
3. Heat transfer from metal to a metal heat sink typically involves surface area for heat radiation and rapid cooling. You need some way to remove the heat from the object. You can't pump heat away from the weapon and into the clip. They will be at the same temperature. So ejecting a spent clip won't actually cool the weapon, but inserting a cold clip will. But then you have to wait for heat transfer from the weapon to the cold clip.
4. For heat transfer to happen between two thermal bodies you need a direct fluid contact or a heat exchanger. You cannot have adequate direct fluid contact since the object is specified to only clip into place.

You make assumption that termal clip is like metal what cools down by air slowly. Have you consider that it's actually based in chemical reaction. Now this is just example to show what I mean, not actual materials. Ice melts when it gets heat, but it doesn't come back to ice just for waiting.

Modifié par Lumikki, 08 juillet 2011 - 05:37 .

[slimgrin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

All this science for a retcon?

The first Mass Effect scored pretty well on Moh's Scale of Sci-Fi Hardness.  As such, it attracted fans of hard science fiction, and those fans care about the science.

I just think its silly to overanalyze when gameplay changes came first and lore came afterward in ME2. They didn't go to the writing team to come up with better combat.

[Sylvius the Mad]

slimgrin wrote...

I just think its silly to overanalyze when gameplay changes came first and lore came afterward in ME2.

The problem is that that's the wrong way to design a game.

The lore should come first.  Everything else should be subservient to the lore.

[slimgrin]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

I just think its silly to overanalyze when gameplay changes came first and lore came afterward in ME2.

The problem is that that's the wrong way to design a game.

The lore should come first.  Everything else should be subservient to the lore.

Lol. Then we're on the same page. 

[Arppis]

MELTOR13 wrote...

Loot and pointless stats =/= RPG

Go back to board games and dice rolls if you want your 'hardcore' RPG.

This or strategy games. Roleplaying is about playing your character, not about rolling your dice. Dice is just a tool and with interactive medium, we really don't need them. They don't even make turnbased RPG's anymore, so why should the dice matter so much? It's all realtime/pause mechanic now.

[the_one_54321]

Lumikki wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
1. The gun is constantly cooling when not firing. So, really your ammo count should still be automatically rising when you aren't actively firing the weapon. The clip is not a magazine, it's thermal body.

You make assumption that termal clip is like metal what cools down by air slowly. Have you consider that it's actually based in chemical reaction. Now this is just example to show what I mean, not actual materials. Ice melts when it gets heat, but it doesn't come back to ice just for waiting.

Suggest some endothermic reactions that could manage this. Btw, ice melting is a physical process, not a chemical reaction. Very important distinction.