3223 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Arppis wrote...

This or strategy games. Roleplaying is about playing your character, not about rolling your dice. Dice is just a tool and with interactive medium, we really don't need them.

We need some way to simulate the character's skills.  Dice work.  I haven't seen another system yet that does.

They don't even make turnbased RPG's anymore, so why should the dice matter so much? It's all realtime/pause mechanic now.

BioWare has never made a turn-based RPG, but they used stats and dice for a decade.

[Lumikki]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

You make assumption that termal clip is like metal what cools down by air slowly. Have you consider that it's actually based in chemical reaction. Now this is just example to show what I mean, not actual materials. Ice melts when it gets heat, but it doesn't come back to ice just for waiting.

Suggest some endothermic reactions that could manage this. Btw, ice melting is a physical process, not a chemical reaction. Very important distinction.

Okey, but you go the point. If you have material what change it's forms, then you just clip it out as it has become useless for cooling. That would explain a lot about termal clips and how they work how they do. What you think?

Modifié par Lumikki, 08 juillet 2011 - 05:41 .

[the_one_54321]

I'm going to point back to Valkyria Chronicles again. Fantastic turn based mechanics. A really excellent game. Not an RPG though, simply because you have zero control over character decisions or actions. It's a strategy game.

[Il Divo]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BioWare has never made a turn-based RPG, but they used stats and dice for a decade.

KotOR and Neverwinter Nights both utilize turn-based systems. They simply can occur in real-time.

Modifié par Il Divo, 08 juillet 2011 - 05:43 .

[the_one_54321]

Lumikki wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...
You make assumption that termal clip is like metal what cools down by air slowly. Have you consider that it's actually based in chemical reaction. Now this is just example to show what I mean, not actual materials. Ice melts when it gets heat, but it doesn't come back to ice just for waiting.

Suggest some endothermic reactions that could manage this. Btw, ice melting is a physical process, not a chemical reaction. Very important distinction.

Okey, but you go the point. If you have mateiral what change it's forms, then you just clip it out as it has become useless for cooling. That would explain a lot about termal clips and how they work how they do. What you think?

Yeah, but we're getting into the "magic material" territory here. It doesn't really excuse the previous lack of any coherent explanation. If they wanted to use the "magic material" approach for chemical cooling via an endothermic reaction, they could have put in a codex entry or something like that. I would have been ok with that.

edit: Also, I'm not aware of any chemical reactions other than oxidation (burning) that are triggered by heat.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 08 juillet 2011 - 05:44 .

[Someone With Mass]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
The problem is that that's the wrong way to design a game.

The lore should come first.  Everything else should be subservient to the lore.

Okay, want to talk lore? Let's talk lore. 

First off, mass effect fields won't allow you to pass through solid matter, control people's minds or drain their lifeforce. But it happens all the time.

Second off, mass effect fields can't block heat, slow moving objects, punches or any kind of radiation, yet we see some of this happen constantly.

The whole battle of the Citadel was a violation to the lore as well, as cruisers aren't designed for knife fights (when ships are engaging each other at point blank range) that's a role more suited for frigates/fighters. Not to mention that the Destiny Ascension isn't designed to battle ships at that short range.

It's more of a matter of convenience to the game, so don't pull the lore card every time the unending whining about the goddamn thermal clips starts.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 08 juillet 2011 - 05:49 .

[kregano]

Sidney wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

The gun gets hot, so there's a big lump of metal inside the gun. This big lump of metal takes on a lot of the heat. When a predetermined temperature is reached, the gun ejects the clip. Insert new clip and you're good to go. 

Yeah but the whole overheating mechanism is dumb anyways. There is no reason the heat from one sniper round or shotgun shell should be so much more than the heat from an assault rifle round and there's no concievable reason an HE round produces +500% heat.

ME guns are essentially railguns, which usually would produce something like this:


All that flame is plasma created by the friction of hurling a round at extremely high speeds.

[Praetor Knight]

Lumikki wrote...

Okey, but you go the point. If you have material what change it's forms, then you just clip it out as it has become useless for cooling. That would explain a lot about termal clips and how they work how they do. What you think?

I want to add to what you are saying, with a tidbit from material sciences.

So there is material fatigue, which is the progressive and localized structural damage that occurs when a material is subjected to cyclic loading. (link)

And venting a ME1 weapon seems like cyclic loading, so there is a concern with experiencing thermo-mechanical fatigue with ME universe weapons. Adding Thermal Clips seems to aid in weapons durability from a lore stand-point and helping keep a higher average of sustained cover fire in combat.

So, the main problem I see with Thermal Clips in ME2 are gameplay mechanic issues, IMHO.

Edit: and I found this neat site that shows different types of metal fatigue with one being thermal:
http://materials.ope.../mem/mem_mf.htm

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 08 juillet 2011 - 06:04 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Il Divo wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BioWare has never made a turn-based RPG, but they used stats and dice for a decade.

KotOR and Neverwinter Nights both utilize turn-based systems. They simply can occur in real-time.

But the turns don't happen in sequence.  Each character's actions are performed turn-by-turn, but that's true for DA2 as well.  A turn-based game is turn-based.  KotOR and NWN operate in real-time.

[SAE100]

The Combat is still turn-based even if it looks like real time. But I thought DA1/2 isn´t turn based, because cooldowns seem kinda strange with a turn based combat system.

[Il Divo]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

But the turns don't happen in sequence.  Each character's actions are performed turn-by-turn, but that's true for DA2 as well.  A turn-based game is turn-based.  KotOR and NWN operate in real-time.

Turn-based and real time are not mutually exclusive. I can only attack in a certain order when I play KotOR.

I attack.
My opponent attacks.
I attack.

I can only attack in accordance with my turn. All real-time means is that the actions don't have to occur in a vacuum; I can make in-game decisions without ever having to pause the game, but everything still follows a sequence. That's why the game is able to have synched sword animations.

The Dragon Age series also isn't turn-based, hence why you can have weapon-speeds.

Modifié par Il Divo, 08 juillet 2011 - 06:41 .

[Sidney]

kregano wrote...
ME guns are essentially railguns, which usually would produce something like this:


All that flame is plasma created by the friction of hurling a round at extremely high speeds.

That is all well and good except that doesn't solve the problem of why the type of bullet you fire causes more or less heat.

[konfeta]

The problem is that that's the wrong way to design a game.

The lore should come first. Everything else should be subservient to the lore.

I am curious, what are your arguments for this assertion? I am talking objective arguments, not "I belong to a specific group of people who value lore consistency above all else and any game design philosophy oriented for people who don't care as much as us is wrong" argument.

[Candidate 88766]

vader da slayer wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

littlezack wrote...

 When you think about it, JE and ME2 are similar in a lot of ways, actually. Has anybody ever accused Jade Empire of not being an RPG?

Alot of people tend to ignore Jade Empire when accusing EA of destroying Bioware.

It's actually interesting when you think about it because Bioware is regarded as a top notch RPG developer, yet their track record doesn't indicate that they ever designed in depth RPG mechanics to start with; they've almost always placed more emphasis on the interactive story/characters.

The Baldur's Gate series, Neverwinter Nights, and KotOR (with the exception of Force powers) were all completely ripped out from Dungeons and Dragons, 2e and 3e.

On the other hand, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, and Mass Effect 2 all featured very basic combat systems with greater emphasis on player reflexes.
 
The only outlier we really have is Dragon Age: Origins (also DA2, to a lesser extent) where Bioware actually designed a detailed rules system. All their other rules systems have either been borrowed from DnD or extremely basic to understand.

Thats a very good point. People say EA has made Bioware betray their 'RPG roots', but in actual fact their games haven't changed that much at all.

Bioware makes great games. They don't necessarily make good RPGs, at least in the traditional sense. Frankly, I think Bioware is better because they don't try to forge their games around traditional models, they cherry pick features from multiple genres depending on their relevance to the game, not because the genre demands it.

ladies and gentlemen we have a winner. people need to remember that if a game isn't fun no one will play it so trying to force the d20 style of "dice rolls" into the ME universe with enless inventory list wouldn't make the game more fun, as seen with the inventory list more annoying, so trying to foce that into a system that it wouldn't work in doesn't make sense. when making a game you have to keep in mind that it needs to be fun to play.

Bingo. While some people do find that style of game fun, that style isn't in keeping with the direction Bioware went with for Mass Effect and actually the direction their games have gone in for a long time. They include features not because they adhere to genre archetypes, but because they consider relevant to that game/franchise and above all else fun.

Saying Mass Effect should have certain RPG features becasue other RPGs have them is like saying Mass Effect should have online mutliplayer because other shooters have that, and I don't think any of us want that. Not unless they can do something genuinely unique with multiplayer that actually adds to the game in a meaningful way.

[the_one_54321]

Sidney wrote...

kregano wrote...
ME guns are essentially railguns, which usually would produce something like this:


All that flame is plasma created by the friction of hurling a round at extremely high speeds.

That is all well and good except that doesn't solve the problem of why the type of bullet you fire causes more or less heat.

Usually a weapon like a high powered sniper riffle will have larger rounds and more propellant. It means a lot more heat. In the instance of ME, it doesn't make any sense. In fact, in the instance of ME, having different riffles with different applications doesn't make any sense at all.

Shotgun? Causes damage because of a very large slug.
Assault riffle? Rapid high velocity slugs.
Heavy machine gun? Rapid, large high velocity slugs.

But if you can make an assult rifle that fires like a rail gun, the sheer amount of energy involved would render anything like a shotgun or heavy machine gun or sniper rifle irrelevant. Every weapon should be a high powered, rapid discharge, fully automatic sniper riffle. The only reason they have different kinds of guns is the for the sake of familiar game development and mechanics.

[Candidate 88766]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

BioWare has never made a turn-based RPG, but they used stats and dice for a decade.

Exactly. Time for something new.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 08 juillet 2011 - 07:12 .

[Praetor Knight]

Sidney wrote...

That is all well and good except that doesn't solve the problem of why the type of bullet you fire causes more or less heat.

I would guess the problem of heat would center on how ME universe projectiles are first formed and also the acceleration in the weapons.

This excerpt is from the codex, both from primary and secondary for Small Arms:

The ammo magazine is a simple block of metal. The gun's internal computer calculates the mass needed to reach the target based on distance, gravity, and atmospheric pressure, then shears off an appropriate sized slug from the block. A single block can supply thousands of rounds, making ammo a non-issue during any engagement.

But combatants were forced to deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their weapons vented.

Waste heat is a problem.

So I assume that the ammo types like HE and Sledgehammer rounds seem fine with their increases and here's a few videos of mini railguns with the plasma flash when firing:


.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0F6r0Mf_iM&feature=related

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 08 juillet 2011 - 07:15 .

[Candidate 88766]

konfeta wrote...

The problem is that that's the wrong way to design a game.

The lore should come first. Everything else should be subservient to the lore.

I am curious, what are your arguments for this assertion? I am talking objective arguments, not "I belong to a specific group of people who value lore consistency above all else and any game design philosophy oriented for people who don't care as much as us is wrong" argument.

Exactly. For a story, lore is very important. However, it is not necessarily the most important part of a game. Gameplay must come first - if it isn't fun to play, or if the gameplay is broken to the point that it is rendered unplayable, then it has failed as a game. 

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 08 juillet 2011 - 07:17 .

[sbvera13]

While we're on the subject, I'm going to indulge the nerd in me and point out that ME guns are really closer to coilguns.  Railguns require physical contact with the projectile and the barrel, which is clearly not the case if the barrel is the size it appears to be and the rounds are the size of a grain of sand, as the codex implies.

As for where the heat comes from, electrical circuits generat heat due to impedence.  Powerful circuits -like coilguns- generate lots of heat.  Conductive materials also become less conductive (have more resistance) at higher temperatures, so they would simply stop working eventually. There's no need for the barrel to get hot and melt or whatnot.  That much, at least, makes perfect sense as stated.

[Praetor Knight]

sbvera13 wrote...

While we're on the subject, I'm going to indulge the nerd in me and point out that ME guns are really closer to coilguns.  Railguns require physical contact with the projectile and the barrel, which is clearly not the case if the barrel is the size it appears to be and the rounds are the size of a grain of sand, as the codex implies.

As for where the heat comes from, electrical circuits generat heat due to impedence.  Powerful circuits -like coilguns- generate lots of heat.  Conductive materials also become less conductive (have more resistance) at higher temperatures, so they would simply stop working eventually. There's no need for the barrel to get hot and melt or whatnot.  That much, at least, makes perfect sense as stated.

That's cool, and seems like a better design to compare to ME weapons.

[the_one_54321]

You'll still have plasma generation from air friction with something moving that fast. I don't know if that would be an issue for weapon heat or not.

[Praetor Knight]

I was reading up on what I could find about mass drivers and I found a stub on a helical railgun.

And here is a youtube video I found:

It is described as a a cross between a railgun and a coilgun.

I can imagine ME weapons being a sort of composite between some of these systems to "weaponize" the concept of mass acceleration.

Until I saw the video of the helical rail gun, it did not occur to me that the barrel of ME weapons could also be rifled to increase velocity.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

konfeta wrote...

The problem is that that's the wrong way to design a game.

The lore should come first. Everything else should be subservient to the lore.

I am curious, what are your arguments for this assertion? I am talking objective arguments, not "I belong to a specific group of people who value lore consistency above all else and any game design philosophy oriented for people who don't care as much as us is wrong" argument.

Exactly. For a story, lore is very important. However, it is not necessarily the most important part of a game. Gameplay must come first - if it isn't fun to play, or if the gameplay is broken to the point that it is rendered unplayable, then it has failed as a game. 

Completely wrong.  Here's why.

In an RPG, the only gameply that matters is the roleplaying.  Every aspect of the game, from the combat to the dioalogue to the inventory needs to serve the roleplaying, because the roleplaying is the whole point of the game.

That's why it's silly to talk about including RPG elements in a game.  Either a game allows roleplaying or it doesn't.  it's a binary state.

Lore consistency informs roleplaying, because all roleplaying is is in-character desicion-making.  The decisions your characters make are based on both the personality you've defined for the character (I can explain at great length why the player needs to be the author of that personality if you'd like), and one the state of the world in which the character lives.  Remember, the character doesn't think he's in a game.  He thinks the world in which he lives in the real world.

But if the lore is inconsistent, then the player can't make decisions on behalf of the character.  The character's knowledge of the world around him is incoherent, and thus literally anything could be possible.  If the character can't have knowledge, or even something he perceives as knowledge, of the world in which he lives, he can't make decisions without allowing them to be random.

And random decisions defeats the purpose of roleplaying.  If the personality defined by the player has no relevance to the character's behaviour, then the player's input is entirely meaningless.

[sbvera13]

the_one_54321 wrote...

You'll still have plasma generation from air friction with something moving that fast. I don't know if that would be an issue for weapon heat or not.

Not really.  Plasma is formed when the electron cloud of an atom is increased in energy enough to become unstable.  This is why plasma is always electrically conductive, and traditionally viewed as high temperature.  However it doesn't need to be hot at all, see neon signs and plasma balls for example.  Friction with a moving projectile wouldn't transmit energy to an atom in this way; it would just create heat.  All this brings up the question of what causes the muzzle flash in game... I'm guessing either electrical discharge (aka the coils are high enough voltage to arc with each other after firing) or dark energy from the mass effect field used to accelerate the projectile.

@Praetor- cool. I like it.

[the_one_54321]

In Exile wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
I can play any vapid action fest any other day of the week from a million other developers. Those are the instances where all I really care about is that the mechanics of the game work well. For one, the mechanics in the ME franchise have never worked really well to begin with, but that's not the main reason I play it. I expect quality writing. That is non-negotiable.

How did you last through the ME1 plot-holes and inconsistencies?

the_one_54321 wrote...
Because a heat sink actually can't work that way. Anyone that has put a new CPU in a computer knows that the air gap is enough to render the heat sink ineffective. You need a solid fluid contact, via that thermal goop. The whole concept of a thermal clip as a heat sink is really silly. The gun overheating or needing a general cooldown time made a lot more sense internally.

Did you just complain that ME tells science to go **** itself? Again, that's like... I mean, have you seen Quarians/Joker's Bones/Asari reproduction + mind reading/Neutrons that lead to FTL? ME just tells science to grab a big pipe and **** itself silly.

Straw that broke the camel's back, man. So-to-speak, anyway.