3223 réponses à ce sujet

[wrdnshprd]

bottom line is this really..

you put dialogue choices and a good story on call of duty, and leave the first-person/twitch combat.. guess what.. its still a shooter and NOT an rpg.. sorry.. its not..

same thing on the rpg side

you put a first person perspective and give shooter mechanics to ANY jrpg - but keep the inventory, gear, crafting, skills, and stat customization.. guess what.. its still an rpg

[the_one_54321]

SpiffySquee wrote...
I disagree that the simple fact they made it a better shooter makes it a worse RPG. How does them making a better shooter make it harder for you to pretend you are Shep and make decisions for him/her?

Shooter UI and RPG UI are mutually exclusive. Look at the post above this one. He actually puts it quite well.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 08 juillet 2011 - 10:22 .

[EternalPink]

wrdnshprd wrote...

bottom line is this really..

you put dialogue choices and a good story on call of duty, and leave the first-person/twitch combat.. guess what.. its still a shooter and NOT an rpg.. sorry.. its not..

same thing on the rpg side

you put a first person perspective and give shooter mechanics to ANY jrpg - but keep the inventory, gear, crafting, skills, and stat customization.. guess what.. its still an rpg

So basically "the inventory, gear, crafting, skills, and stat customization" is your defination of a RPG although we can (and someone will) point out games that have that and are not considered a RPG

[konfeta]

I swear, the RPG genre debate is a bloody cancer. Let's randomly do something completely different and look at what wikipedia has to say.

http://en.wikipedia....game#Sub-genres

I am sensing an important message that can be derived out of that link. I wonder what it is. Though, knowing how these debates work, it will loop back to other parts of the article with a very painfully predictable result.

Modifié par konfeta, 08 juillet 2011 - 10:25 .

[the_one_54321]

konfeta wrote...
I am sensing an important message that can be derived out of that link. I wonder what it is.

That wikipeida is as often full of [feces] as it is useful info?

[konfeta]

Damn. I was hoping you worship it.

[EternalPink]

With your wiki definition none of the stuff (i would call it game mechanics myself but others seem to term it essential RPG ingredients) mentioned is in there so i doubt many are going to want to go with it

[Il Divo]

konfeta wrote...

But, overall, the point is moot. Changes always annoy people. The question comes down to whenever the gains outweigh the losses.

True enough. Change will always pose a problem, no matter its form.
 
I can do it with the Knights of the Old Republic series as well. KotOR introduced certain gameplay abilities/Force powers which are considered a part of the lore setting. KotOR 2 takes this gameplay further by adding new Force powers (Ex: Force Scream), which previously did not exist in the prior instalment. This is technically inconsistent because we are given no explanation why Force-users suddenly have access to new abilities which did not exist before.

But then, if you don't change anything, the developers are criticized that everything is 'too similar' and that flaws weren't fixed. Developers cannot win.

Modifié par Il Divo, 08 juillet 2011 - 10:30 .

[SpiffySquee]

the_one_54321 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...
I disagree that the simple fact they made it a better shooter makes it a worse RPG. How does them making a better shooter make it harder for you to pretend you are Shep and make decisions for him/her?

Shooter UI and RPG UI are mutually exclusive. Look at the post above this one. He actually puts it quite well.

you didn't answer the question. How does making a game a better shooter make it harder for you to "Role Play" a character? 

 RPG "Role Playing Game" has nothing to do with the UI. It has everything to do with being able to pretend you are the character and develop them the way you want i.e. there personality, choices, and reactions to others.

So, if you give a FPS a really good story where you take control of the main character and choose how he responds to events and how he acts around others. then yes, it most certainly is a Role playing game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

I just think its silly to overanalyze when gameplay changes came first and lore came afterward in ME2.

The problem is that that's the wrong way to design a game.

The lore should come first.  Everything else should be subservient to the lore.

What happens if the lore produces bad gameplay?

Then it's bad lore, but that should have been evident pretty early in the game's development.

That said, I'm not confident that "bad gameplay" is as universal as people seem to think it is.  We all like different gameplay.

[wrdnshprd]

EternalPink wrote...

wrdnshprd wrote...

bottom line is this really..

you put dialogue choices and a good story on call of duty, and leave the first-person/twitch combat.. guess what.. its still a shooter and NOT an rpg.. sorry.. its not..

same thing on the rpg side

you put a first person perspective and give shooter mechanics to ANY jrpg - but keep the inventory, gear, crafting, skills, and stat customization.. guess what.. its still an rpg

So basically "the inventory, gear, crafting, skills, and stat customization" is your defination of a RPG although we can (and someone will) point out games that have that and are not considered a RPG

when it comes to the video game industry, thats pretty much exactly what im saying..

give me one example of a video game rpg that has inventory, gear, crafting, skills, and stats and is not an rpg..

and if you say diablo.. that would be a negative.. i sitll consider that game an rpg.. definately an action rpg.. but an rpg nonetheless.. its no different than playing  a table top d&d board game.. the only real difference is that your avatar is guarenteed a hit on a mob.. yes the stats are a bit different, and the skill system is different.. but neither of these systems are absent.. and in the end its talk to an npc (DM), do a dungeon run, come back.. rince/repeat. just like most of the d&d runs ive been in.

[Sylvius the Mad]

konfeta wrote...

I should have inferred that when you said "game" you meant "RPG game."

I do maintain that those two groups are mutually exclusive.  The features that make a good "game" routinely run contrary to what makes a good RPG.  And vice versa.  Since you can't have both, BioWare needs to decide whether they're making RPGs or whether they're making games.

[the_one_54321]

SpiffySquee wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...
I disagree that the simple fact they made it a better shooter makes it a worse RPG. How does them making a better shooter make it harder for you to pretend you are Shep and make decisions for him/her?

Shooter UI and RPG UI are mutually exclusive. Look at the post above this one. He actually puts it quite well.

you didn't answer the question. How does making a game a better shooter make it harder for you to "Role Play" a character? 

 RPG "Role Playing Game" has nothing to do with the UI. It has everything to do with being able to pretend you are the character and develop them the way you want i.e. there personality, choices, and reactions to others.

So, if you give a FPS a really good story where you take control of the main character and choose how he responds to events and how he acts around others. then yes, it most certainly is a Role playing game.

Where's the threshold? I was told earlier in this thread that F3AR can't be an RPG because the character choice you have is too trivial. Where's the line? There has to be a line. Definitions are hard, not soft. They are not variable. Communication is variable, not definition. There is A definition of RPG, not MY definition of RPG. Just that marketing has gotten everything so confused by trying to appeal to different markets without any regard for what kind of game they are actually selling.

Taking on a role means that you are removed from the equation as much as possible. And the swing point is that the character can do things that have nothing to do with the things you can do. I shouldn't aim the gun.

[Sylvius the Mad]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Shooter UI and RPG UI are mutually exclusive. Look at the post above this one. He actually puts it quite well.

I disagree.  I think ME put the two together very well.  The only reason there was a problem was because shooter fans saw a shooter interface and expected shooter mechanics.

I can't blame BioWare for that.  Maybe they didn't document the game well enough, but frankly anyone likely to jump to that sort of conclusion isn't likely to read the manual anyway (despite the RTFM joke right in the game).  It's not BioWare's fault that the players expected the game to be something it wasn't.

[konfeta]

@Pink
Well, there is a meta-message there as well. If one willingly mocks wikipedia for proclaiming what's an RPG because it is a public, self-policed entity with little academic merit, they should also (hypothetically) see the inherent contradiction in the act when they themselves proclaim what a constitutes an RPG. Damn. I am getting tired of saying variations of that message. Where do people get the energy to relentlessly slam their viewpoint onto others?

And suddenly I am curious. I can understand why people accuse ME of not being RPG enough - they want it to become more like their vision of RPG. But why do enter epic arguments with those people to argue with them that ME is indeed an RPG? If you like the game, does it matter to you what genre it is perceived as?

P.S. Someone who knows English tell me - why do I feel so uncomfortable saying "A RPG" and "an RPG" feels so right? I thought "an" comes before vowels and "a" comes before consonants. What sorcery is this?.

[EternalPink]

wrdnshprd wrote...

EternalPink wrote...

wrdnshprd wrote...

bottom line is this really..

you put dialogue choices and a good story on call of duty, and leave the first-person/twitch combat.. guess what.. its still a shooter and NOT an rpg.. sorry.. its not..

same thing on the rpg side

you put a first person perspective and give shooter mechanics to ANY jrpg - but keep the inventory, gear, crafting, skills, and stat customization.. guess what.. its still an rpg

So basically "the inventory, gear, crafting, skills, and stat customization" is your defination of a RPG although we can (and someone will) point out games that have that and are not considered a RPG

when it comes to the video game industry, thats pretty much exactly what im saying..

give me one example of a video game rpg that has inventory, gear, crafting, skills, and stats and is not an rpg..

and if you say diablo.. that would be a negative.. i sitll consider that game an rpg.. definately an action rpg.. but an rpg nonetheless.. its no different than playing  a table top d&d board game.. the only real difference is that your avatar is guarenteed a hit on a mob.. yes the stats are a bit different, and the skill system is different.. but neither of these systems are absent.. and in the end its talk to an npc (DM), do a dungeon run, come back.. rince/repeat. just like most of the d&d runs ive been in.

Well other than crafting, Dawn of war 2 has all of that - wouldn't call it a RPG

Ufo Aftershock/Afterlight has the full criteria, not a RPG

Dragonshard again has the full criteria, wouldn't call that a RPG myself either

[the_one_54321]

Just because you can use a sledgehammer to force a square peg through a round hole doesn't mean that the system works.

[Mister Mida]

konfeta wrote...

P.S. Someone who knows English tell me - why do I feel so uncomfortable saying "A RPG" and "an RPG" feels so right? I thought "an" comes before vowels and "a" comes before consonants. What sorcery is this?.

You pronounce it as Ar Pee Gee. Which means 'an' is the right word for it.

[the_one_54321]

konfeta wrote...
Well, there is a meta-message there as well. If one willingly mocks wikipedia for proclaiming what's an RPG because it is a public, self-policed entity with little academic merit, they should also (hypothetically) see the inherent contradiction in the act when they themselves proclaim what a constitutes an RPG. Damn. I am getting tired of saying variations of that message. Where do people get the energy to relentlessly slam their viewpoint onto others?

It is a matter of properly applying definition.
But the flip side to this is that I don't even really think that ME should be an RPG. It's fine as it is developing now, so long as it keeps refining and polishing.

But when someone says things about RPG that imply that any shooter can be an RPG well, then something is obviously very wrong.

konfeta wrote...
P.S. Someone who knows English tell me - why do I feel so uncomfortable saying "A RPG" and "an RPG" feels so right? I thought "an" comes before vowels and "a" comes before consonants. What sorcery is this?.

RPG is pronounced Ar Pee Gee, which starts with a vowel. Therefore "an RPG" sounds correct.

[SpiffySquee]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Where's the threshold? I was told earlier in this thread that F3AR can't be an RPG because the character choice you have is too trivial. Where's the line? There has to be a line. Definitions are hard, not soft. They are not variable. Communication is variable, not definition. There is A definition of RPG, not MY definition of RPG. Just that marketing has gotten everything so confused by trying to appeal to different markets without any regard for what kind of game they are actually selling.

Taking on a role means that you are removed from the equation as much as possible. And the swing point is that the character can do things that have nothing to do with the things you can do. I shouldn't aim the gun.

and yet you still haven't answered the simple question. How does the simple act of making a game a better shooter make it harder for you to role play a character? A definition? It's in the name isn't it? Role Play. To play a role. To shape a character to your own tastes (as much as a game can allow) How in the world does having to eject a clip instead of waiting for a gun to cool down have anything to do with controlling Shep's reaction, decisions, and personality?

[the_one_54321]

SpiffySquee wrote...
and yet you still haven't answered the simple question. How does the simple act of making a game a better shooter make it harder for you to role play a character?

Because I am aiming the gun. Not Shepard. Therefore the role of Shepard is not being played. If it was, he would aim the gun and I would just tell him what to aim it at.

[wrdnshprd]

SpiffySquee wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...
I disagree that the simple fact they made it a better shooter makes it a worse RPG. How does them making a better shooter make it harder for you to pretend you are Shep and make decisions for him/her?

Shooter UI and RPG UI are mutually exclusive. Look at the post above this one. He actually puts it quite well.

you didn't answer the question. How does making a game a better shooter make it harder for you to "Role Play" a character? 

 RPG "Role Playing Game" has nothing to do with the UI. It has everything to do with being able to pretend you are the character and develop them the way you want i.e. there personality, choices, and reactions to others.

So, if you give a FPS a really good story where you take control of the main character and choose how he responds to events and how he acts around others. then yes, it most certainly is a Role playing game.

then by your defintition ANY game with the mechanics you describe would turn into an rpg.

also, for most rpg fans, developing the personality of the character and choosing how that character reacts is only a small part of what makes an rpg.. most, if not 90% of the fun of an rpg is customizing the stats of the character to make it more effective in combat and social situations..

[EternalPink]

the_one_54321 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...
and yet you still haven't answered the simple question. How does the simple act of making a game a better shooter make it harder for you to role play a character?

Because I am aiming the gun. Not Shepard. Therefore the role of Shepard is not being played. If it was, he would aim the gun and I would just tell him what to aim it at.

The game uses a twitch mechanic rather than point and click mechanic, again i would describe this as a game mechanic and not a criteria to define which genre of game it belongs to

[the_one_54321]

EternalPink wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...
and yet you still haven't answered the simple question. How does the simple act of making a game a better shooter make it harder for you to role play a character?

Because I am aiming the gun. Not Shepard. Therefore the role of Shepard is not being played. If it was, he would aim the gun and I would just tell him what to aim it at.

The game uses a twitch mechanic rather than point and click mechanic, again i would describe this as a game mechanic and not a criteria to define which genre of game it belongs to

Every single genre of video games is defined based on its gameplay mechanics. Except for RPGs. For some reason. That no one knows. (except marketers)

[SpiffySquee]

the_one_54321 wrote...

SpiffySquee wrote...
and yet you still haven't answered the simple question. How does the simple act of making a game a better shooter make it harder for you to role play a character?

Because I am aiming the gun. Not Shepard. Therefore the role of Shepard is not being played. If it was, he would aim the gun and I would just tell him what to aim it at.

Ok, first of all... you didn't aim in ME1? How in the world did you beat the game then? Stats may have been more involved, but you still had to aim just like in ME2.

Second, if the idea is to assume the role of Shep (Role Play) then being the one who aim instead of telling Shep to aim helps you feel more like you are Shep and not some god like being telling him what to do. So that would technically help you pretend you are shep.