3223 réponses à ce sujet

[littlezack]

slimgrin wrote...

littlezack wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

So here again we have people on the BSN, loyal Bioware fans, RAAAAAGIING against stats like a pack of rabid Hyenas, and yet Bioware uses stats in their games.

I are confused.

It's not a question of having or not having stats in the game, it's about how important the stats are and how much focus should be placed on them.

So ME1 and ME2 or Dragon Age, all these games placed too much emphasis on stats? I didn't think so.  I'm just wondering where all the stat hate comes from, or why people think ME3 is suddenly going to become an MMO. As Marshalleck explained in an earlier post, computers have no other way of thinking. 

I sort of tune out everything Marsh says, since most of it just repetitious crap. So I might have missed that.

The question, I think, is whether ME1 needed to have as much focus on stats as it did (to the point where it affects the players ability to aim, for instance) and whether ME2 was right or wrong for moving away from that.

[slimgrin]

I don't think stats should interfere/alter the player's twitch abilities in an action RPG. They should be in the background like ME2 ( but viewable)

ME2 combat is better, not arguing that. But ME1 has more abilities, mods, better skill progression, upgradable social skills, and I want to evolve powers more than once. They are doing all of this in ME3 are they not? So it's not a worry of mine. I'm more concerned about the story.

( and sorry but I can't help but to take a dig at planet scanning, it should be gone)

Modifié par slimgrin, 11 juillet 2011 - 01:31 .

[Lumikki]

slimgrin wrote...

ME2 combat is better, not arguing that. But ME1 has more abilities, mods, better skill progression, upgradable social skills, and I want to evolve powers more than once. They are doing all of this in ME3 are they not? So it's not a worry of mine. I'm more concerned about the story.

Yep, they are doing it allready in ME3 as increasing stuff. So,  I don't worry about stats, loots, powers, customation, mods or story. They know what when wrong in story in ME2 and DA2, so they know how to do it now. My biggest conserns is squad members and omni-blades & armors customations affect to combat balance.

( and sorry but I can't help but to take a dig at planet scanning, it should be gone)

They say planet scanning wil be there, but they did not say the planet dig will be there. They are in my opinion two different thing. Remember when you first arrive in new planet, first you made scan and it tells if there is somehting special about that planet. I think that part was good. The bad part was the dig part.

Modifié par Lumikki, 11 juillet 2011 - 01:51 .

[Epic777]

@slimgrin So here again we have people on the BSN, loyal Bioware fans, RAAAAAGIING against stats like a pack of rabid Hyenas, and yet Bioware uses stats in their games.

I are confused.

--------------------------------------------

I'll bite. I do not claim to speak for all forumites who are against stats however, I know at least a few share my sentiments so I will speak my thought process. First I am not against stats I happily played through baldurs gate I,II and TOB mutliple times. The same goes for KOTOR, nwn, da, elder scrolls series stc. However I do not believe RPG style stats mix well with the manual aiming/attacking/dodging inherit with the Third Person Perspective. Unfortunately what you end up with a clumsy system were the player's manual aiming/dodging is essentially overridden by their stats.

[Rockworm503]

slimgrin wrote...

So here again we have people on the BSN, loyal Bioware fans, RAAAAAGIING against stats like a pack of rabid Hyenas, and yet Bioware uses stats in their games.

I are confused.

I'm not seeing raging against it.. More like saying that stats don't make or break a game for some of us.
I for one hardly notice them when their there and don't miss them when their not.

[Gatt9]

sp0ck 06 wrote...
Sitting in front of your TV/computer fiddling with a bunch of stats and loot pretending to role play a paladin running mail quests doesn't change the fact you're sitting there, playing a g-ddamn video game.  I don't see how having stats makes the experience any more "real."  The game doesn't note outright murder?  If you play a full paragon and decide to shove the merc off the building in Thane's RM, you're just trying to "break" the game.  If you consider yourself such a deep "role-player," then that's your fault for breaking the role of your Shepard.  If you're Shepard in that situation, h/she's not thinking "Let me kill this merc to see if people react."  You've already broken the fourth wall of the game in testing the system.

Um...what?

The game prompts me to take an action,  I took it,  and the game failed to react,  and it's somehow my fault the game ignores the Role I was pursuing?  I was trying to "Break the game" by taking an action the game offers me?  Then the game fails to observe the morality system it has implemented,  and ignores the violation of it's own system,  and it's my fault?

Really?

Oh, but of course, if we had stats, that changes EVERYTHING.  Because, "without stats, you're just staring at the screen."  And with stats, you're....doing the exact same thing.  Give me a break.  If you don't like the system of the game, don't play it.  ME was never billed as a stat based RPG.  Don't pretend ME1 was this glorious example of an old school, Fallout-style RPG.  

Yup,  actually it would have.

if(renegade_interrupt(merc) && Morality >= 100)
{
           cutscene(Companions_freakout);
}

Notice how easy it is to check that stat the game actually had implemented and conviently ignored?

The fact is,  ME was billed as an RPG,  it fails to obvserve the very few role constraints it implements.  Hence,  not an RPG,  because it fails to even maintain the very few Roles it does establish,  any and every action is completely fine regardless of the "Role" you're pursuing.  The "Role" the game establishes,  through stat.

Now would also be a very good time for you to notice the topic of the thread,  it's a topic to discuss stats and loot.  Hence,  the reason why we're having this discussion.

[Someone With Mass]

And I have to ask again what it is about loot that's so unbelievably important that it needs to be in every RPG there is beyond pointless and tedious item management.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 11 juillet 2011 - 03:26 .

[slimgrin]

Someone With Mass wrote...

And I have to ask again what it is about loot that's so unbelievably important, it needs to be in every RPG there is beyond pointless and tedious item management.

Because it's part of rewarding the player, it's part of progressing the character. Would you rather have no loot at all? Would that somehow make the story better? Do you just want an adventure game? 

Billy walks down the coridoor, he comes to fork in the path. He:

A) chooses the left path

chooses the right path

*chooses left path*

I am so fulfilled. I have just roleplayed. 

Modifié par slimgrin, 11 juillet 2011 - 03:30 .

[stewie1974]

There hasn't been a single RPG invented yet in computer form. Pen and Paper rpg is still the only way to experience proper RPG. Why, because its flexible enough to allow players to come up with their own decisions rather than option a, b,c,d.

It's an rpg simulator at best, just like every other e-rpg out there.

[slimgrin]

I thank god I never got into table top RPG's. Seriously. I just might be unreasonably rigid in what my definition of roleplaying is.

[Someone With Mass]

Oh yeah, because finding fifteen Equalizer VII all the time is so rewarding.

And I really fail to see how finding a different kind of armor can progress anything regarding Shepard's character, unless it's a personal quest like Wrex', which wasn't only unrewarding, but also boring.

I'd rather go to some store and buy a better weapon than hope I might trip over one on the next mission.

[Il Divo]

slimgrin wrote...

Because it's part of rewarding the player, it's part of progressing the character. Would you rather have no loot at all? Would that somehow make the story better? Do you just want an adventure game? 

Billy walks down the coridoor, he comes to fork in the path. He:

A) chooses the left path

chooses the right path

*chooses left path*

I am so fulfilled. I have just roleplayed. 

I think this is pretty much downplaying the types of choice which can be offered/players want.

It's more like:

A) Commit galactic genocide

Preserve an endangered race from extinction.

Regardless, while I think loot is enjoyable if handled correctly, it can never substitute for a poor/uninteresting narrative. Ex: WoW, Diablo. Those games are based entirely around loot and it makes for an overall weaker experience, imo.

[In Exile]

vallore wrote...
While I find the wheel esthetically lacking, it is the Paragon/Renegade constrains to the available dialogue that I would like to see changed, in the current form it has. 

But the paraphrase, etc. you're okay with? Just double-checking because that tends to be a hot-button issue.

I believe it would improve the game if we could opt to increase the social proficiency of our shepard, if we so desire, by buying ranks in a social skill. a social skill or skills we could develop could work as a bonus to the normal rank obtained through active dialogue choices. And if a player did not desired to buy/use those skills, then he would simply use the mechanism already present in ME2, without the new bonus.

Let me see if I understand - instead of how ME1 did it, you think that a general 'persuasion' pool that just makes it easier to pass the checks is something you'd like?

If that's the case, what about a 'switch', that lets you count a % of your paragon points toward renegade or your renegade points toward paragon (e.g. 4 ranks of 25%, 50%, 75%, 100%). We could call it 'force of personality' or something along those lines, for Shepards who transcend the morality metre. 

[Macrious]

I honestly did like how in Mass Effect 2 experience points will not be granted until the end of a mission. I honestly did feel like I was chasing stats when I was close to an upgrade in Mass Effect 1. I would suggest more talents to choose from and more talents points to be spread around.

[In Exile]

Gatt9 wrote...

if(renegade_interrupt(merc) && Morality >= 100)
{
           cutscene(Companions_freakout);
}

Notice how easy it is to check that stat the game actually had implemented and conviently ignored?

Well, no. You then have to actually script the scene and write dialogue for it. Then, you have to account for how that might change the relationship with the crew. Do people back on the Normandy relate? That means a conversation & cinematics have to be added there. How does that impact the morality metre? Drop it? Keep it the same? If it drops it below 100, what if it goes beyond the threshold again?

Acting as if this design is easy is, wel, incoherent. 

[slimgrin]

Macrious wrote...

I honestly did like how in Mass Effect 2 experience points will not be granted until the end of a mission. I honestly did feel like I was chasing stats when I was close to an upgrade in Mass Effect 1. I would suggest more talents to choose from and more talents points to be spread around.

Enemies never respawned in ME1, to my knowledge. Getting xp at the end or during is irrelavent. It's just that ME1 had areas, where ME2 had levels.

[Epic777]

slimgrin wrote...

Macrious wrote...

I honestly did like how in Mass Effect 2 experience points will not be granted until the end of a mission. I honestly did feel like I was chasing stats when I was close to an upgrade in Mass Effect 1. I would suggest more talents to choose from and more talents points to be spread around.

Enemies never respawned in ME1, to my knowledge. Getting xp at the end or during is irrelavent. It's just that ME1 had areas, where ME2 had levels.

ME1 had the same area crop up many times over especially on the sidequests

[Foolsfolly]

Casey Hudson: People really want us to deepen the RPG aspect of the
experience. We interpret that as being about the kind of intelligent
decision making around how you progress. To us, the RPG experience isn't
necessarily about stats and loot. It's about exploration and combat and
making a good character-driven story and good progression.

I don't disagree with this. The single largest problem DA2 had was that the story was thin and there was only like 3 choices in the game. That's more important to RPGs than stats and looting, which are just mechanics. Mechanics without a good story or player impact....are useless. It's like having four tires but no car to ride on them.

As always, ME3 looks fantastic.

[AlanC9]

slimgrin wrote...

I thank god I never got into table top RPG's. Seriously. I just might be unreasonably rigid in what my definition of roleplaying is.

It's often the people who never played PnP who have the rigid definitions. Unless someone only played one PnP system, that is.

Modifié par AlanC9, 11 juillet 2011 - 06:14 .

[Vaeliorin]

In Exile wrote...

vallore wrote...I believe it would improve the game if we could opt to increase the social proficiency of our shepard, if we so desire, by buying ranks in a social skill. a social skill or skills we could develop could work as a bonus to the normal rank obtained through active dialogue choices. And if a player did not desired to buy/use those skills, then he would simply use the mechanism already present in ME2, without the new bonus.

Let me see if I understand - instead of how ME1 did it, you think that a general 'persuasion' pool that just makes it easier to pass the checks is something you'd like?

If that's the case, what about a 'switch', that lets you count a % of your paragon points toward renegade or your renegade points toward paragon (e.g. 4 ranks of 25%, 50%, 75%, 100%). We could call it 'force of personality' or something along those lines, for Shepards who transcend the morality metre.

While that definitely sounds better than ME2, it still brings up the question of why Shepard becomes more persuasive based entirely on how nice/how much of a dick he is to people.  That just doesn't make any freaking sense.  Of course, it also punishes players who don't want to play one extreme or the other by forcing them to put points into something those who push the extremes don't have to (assuming I'm understanding what you mean by 'switch' correctly...I'm assuming you meant some sort of skill, since it apparently has 4 ranks.)

Persuasive ability should either be based on some sort of persuasion skill not tied to Paragon/Renegade, or just be something Shepard can do regardless of his Paragon/Renegade status (I'd prefer the first, of course.)  Regardless, Paragon/Renegade shouldn't play into it, unless Shepard has a little glowy meter on his uniform somewhere that says "I've been this nice to people :innocent:" or "I've been this much of a dick :devil:"

[AlanC9]

slimgrin wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

And I have to ask again what it is about loot that's so unbelievably important, it needs to be in every RPG there is beyond pointless and tedious item management.

Because it's part of rewarding the player, it's part of progressing the character. Would you rather have no loot at all? Would that somehow make the story better? Do you just want an adventure game? 

Billy walks down the coridoor, he comes to fork in the path. He:

A) chooses the left path

chooses the right path

*chooses left path*

I am so fulfilled. I have just roleplayed. 

And loot somehow would make this better? Or does loot just help to cover up this structure?

[vader da slayer]

Rockworm503 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

So here again we have people on the BSN, loyal Bioware fans, RAAAAAGIING against stats like a pack of rabid Hyenas, and yet Bioware uses stats in their games.

I are confused.

I'm not seeing raging against it.. More like saying that stats don't make or break a game for some of us.
I for one hardly notice them when their there and don't miss them when their not.

to "drive home" something about stats is similar to what you just said. "I for one hardly notice them when they're there" (slight grammar **** coming out) is a VERY BIG point to be made about stats. Stats are good for one thing only. to compare two like items or to determine upgradability of and item/ability. outside of that they are of no use. like litterally no use, when I played WoW I cared only about stats at one point, when I was deciding if an item was an upgrade or not, outside of that I didn't care. like when fighting say the LK I wasn't sitting there (sitting being used VERY liberally here) going "oh man my str is 1000 atm" or something. no I was focused on doing what needed to be done to kill the guy standing in front of me.

stats are great but too many stats is a bad thing (like the sheer amount of different stats in ME1, which there are more different stats in that game alone than I think there are in WoW)..

[Vaeliorin]

AlanC9 wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...
And I have to ask again what it is about loot that's so unbelievably important, it needs to be in every RPG there is beyond pointless and tedious item management.

Because it's part of rewarding the player, it's part of progressing the character. Would you rather have no loot at all? Would that somehow make the story better? Do you just want an adventure game? 

Billy walks down the coridoor, he comes to fork in the path. He:

A) chooses the left path

chooses the right path

*chooses left path*

I am so fulfilled. I have just roleplayed. 

And loot somehow would make this better? Or does loot just help to cover up this structure?

Loot, I think, simply adds a layer of character customization.  That, and getting a neat piece of loot adds a moment of excitement/enjoyment to games (at least for me.)

I also think that randomized loot (not completely random Diablo-style, but such that while you may always get a 2-handed weapon out of a particular chest, the particular 2-handed weapon can change on each playthrough) adds to replayability, as it gives back a bit of that "What next?" excitement that's generally lacking after you've beaten a game once (unless it's a game that differs vastly from one playthrough to the next, and those are very rare.)

Granted, this doesn't work as well in a sci-fi environment as it does in a fantasy one.

Modifié par Vaeliorin, 11 juillet 2011 - 06:33 .

[littlezack]

Now that I think about it, my biggest problem with loot is when there's a limit to how much I can hold at any given time. Then, instead of just being some minor thing I just tweak every now and again, inventory becomes this chore - I have to constantly go in and clean out the junk I've picked up along the way, just so I'll have space on the off chance I find something I might actually want. I have to pick and choose what I take out of each chest and compare it to what I have.

It wouldn't be problem without the stupid limit. Is there any real reason Shepard can only hold 150 items at a time?