Aller au contenu

Photo

Biowares Take on on deeper RPG mechanics. "Forget about stats and loot. More combat.


3223 réponses à ce sujet

#1851
AlanC9

AlanC9
  • Members
  • 35 825 messages

mrcrusty wrote...
 The way around this (imo) is through more complex dialog trees where skills opens up new avenues of dialog or reactions from the people you're talking with varying results depending on the NPCs personality and what you actually want from the conversation. Do you want to outwit them? Do you want to flatter them? Intimidate them? Get information from them? etc. Sometimes, your strongest or most prominent skills weren't the best idea.


Isn't this confusing means with ends? Getting information is a goal, but flattery is a tool.

#1852
Phaedon

Phaedon
  • Members
  • 8 617 messages

Gatt9 wrote...

There's 70 pages to this thread,  I think it's safe to say I'm not alone.  Head on over to RPGCodex,  post your claims,  see what happens.  Or 4chan's /v/.  Or even the D&D boards.  I'll warn you ahead of time,  none of those places will be nearly as polite as I am.

I was about to make a rebuttal but then I noticed you that you were taking:

-4chan
-RPG Codex


seriously.


Oh dear.

Modifié par Phaedon, 11 juillet 2011 - 06:44 .


#1853
Phaedon

Phaedon
  • Members
  • 8 617 messages
I was so shocked I actually made a double post.

Modifié par Phaedon, 11 juillet 2011 - 06:43 .


#1854
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 684 messages
People who take 4chan or RPG Codex like authorities can do that to you.

#1855
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 789 messages
I've never actually been to RPG Codex. How bad is it?

#1856
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

Il Divo wrote...

I've never actually been to RPG Codex. How bad is it?


Gatt9 is a radical who wants to destroy everything RPG relative to the best (worst?) parts of the codex. 

One thread, for example:

The need for a deep, intelligent CRPG is a dull ache within me that's been growing slowly and inexorably over the last few years, and it doesn't look like that hunger is going to be sated anytime soon. 

Witcher 2 helped a bit. I like the game -- its derp factor is scaled sufficiently back, but with its current technical problems (don't ask) and its primarily twitch-based gameplay, it's more like an appetizer than a full meal. 

Risen reminded me of an excessively greasy cheeseburger, more fat than beef. I tried smothering it with every condiment I had, but it gave me the ****s after digesting it so ultimately was unsatisfying. 

The new Deus Ex isn't going to do a thing to help. It'll be of the same ilk as Alpha Brotocol, which I enjoyed for a little while but just couldn't stomach long enough to finish. Kind of like German food, I guess. 

I will admit here and now that while Skyrim has me excited on some lower brainwave level, I know it's not going to fill the bill either. My side appetites for hiking simulators are something that need to be sated as well, but they're more like a sweet tooth than the need for actual nutricious food. 


And here were the recommendations:

Pool of Radiance 
Curse of the Azure Bonds 
Secret of the Silver Blades 
Champions of Krynn 


For those with weak google-fu, Champions of Krynn is from 1990

Modifié par In Exile, 11 juillet 2011 - 08:49 .


#1857
the_one_54321

the_one_54321
  • Members
  • 6 112 messages
We play games in a day and age where developers are making shooters, slapping an RPG label over all the marketing, and enjoying runaway financial success. that you all are looking down in Gatt9 in spite of this is something I find fairly disturbing.

#1858
Foolsfolly

Foolsfolly
  • Members
  • 4 770 messages

hwf wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote... The weapon choice is fine. But the thing that really kills it? The jewelry, where the difference comes down to small little numbers, and the vast majority of jewelry is generic named things with leveled amounts of stat changing. Like +1 or +1.5 to Stamina Regen.

This is an important issue, and I'd like to requote it just for making more feedback noise.
I agree with the tedium involved with filtering and selling unwanted loot.

What we saw in ME3's E3 gameplay demo is a barrel mod that does just "+X damage".
It's too simple, it'll devolve the number play to "go for the bigger number".

In ME1 you got Barrel Upgrades that had both a benefit and a deficit. More damage but less heat dissipation.
It actually made me prefer certain lower level barrel upgrades with more damage output for more heat creation - just because I preferred punch over quantity.

Nearly every mod should have a + and - attribute and it should deviate a bit what it improves and messes up; this way you get puzzle a bit.


That's how it used to be. Replaying KOTOR2 now and their upgrade system is such a fun thing. You break down stuff for components then your skills are checked to see what you can build. The upgrades for weapons rarely have just positives, there's almost always negatives with them. High damage, critical chance, at the cost of attack or defence.

I also liked the Fallout: New Vegas upgrades, but they never had negatives. It's also much simipler than Obsidian's older KOTOR2 mod system.

I'd really like to see the ME3 mods behave more like the KOTOR2 mods (an in an ideal world have as many mods as KOTOR2 does as well). I wouldn't rage if it's the New Vegas this is how many mods this weapon can have, and these are the only types it can have thing.

I'm really fine with the mod system any way it goes but I do hope for something more akin to KOTOR2.

It actually made me prefer certain lower level barrel upgrades with more
damage output for more heat creation - just because I preferred punch
over quantity.


Barrel upgrade VII, plus Tungsten Or Shredder Ammo VII (highest of the game, gone from the game entirely once you reach a high enough level, so save them when you find them), plus Frictionless Material X in the Spectre weapons equals the greatest possible damage output.

I realized that in my second play through Mass Effect and have never once done anything different. The pistol with Overkill has the highest DPS in the game and with those mods in it you're laying waste to enemies at an extremely rapid rate.

#1859
Foolsfolly

Foolsfolly
  • Members
  • 4 770 messages

the_one_54321 wrote...

We play games in a day and age where developers are making shooters, slapping an RPG label over all the marketing, and enjoying runaway financial success. that you all are looking down in Gatt9 in spite of this is something I find fairly disturbing.


Let me just say this, games are supposed to be fun. End of the day that's the only requirement they need to meet. That's why games like the Sims sold so well, or that dreadful Nintendogs. Games only need to be fun.

The fact that good games, fun well made games, get shat on entirely because they aren't made like games nearly 20 years ago is fairly disturbing.

#1860
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

the_one_54321 wrote...
We play games in a day and age where developers are making shooters, slapping an RPG label over all the marketing, and enjoying runaway financial success. that you all are looking down in Gatt9 in spite of this is something I find fairly disturbing.


I find the obsession over the label pretty disturbing, to be honest. I look down on anyone who cares more about the superficial label on the box than the contents themselves. 

#1861
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 789 messages

In Exile wrote...

And here were the recommendations:

Pool of Radiance 
Curse of the Azure Bonds 
Secret of the Silver Blades 
Champions of Krynn 


For those with weak google-fu, Champions of Krynn is from 1990


Were these honestly all the recommendations? The OP of the thread didn't mention a brief list like "I already played KotOR and all these other games." If so, I find myself at a loss for words (figuratively).

Modifié par Il Divo, 11 juillet 2011 - 09:01 .


#1862
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 789 messages

the_one_54321 wrote...

We play games in a day and age where developers are making shooters, slapping an RPG label over all the marketing, and enjoying runaway financial success. that you all are looking down in Gatt9 in spite of this is something I find fairly disturbing.


I wouldn't say I look down on Gatt. However, I have heard only negative things regarding the RPG codex. And, to my great regret, I have visited 4chan before. Neither strikes me as a credible source for the all-time definition of an RPG.

In exile's point regarding genre labels also deserves to be repeated.

Modifié par Il Divo, 11 juillet 2011 - 09:05 .


#1863
In Exile

In Exile
  • Members
  • 28 738 messages

Il Divo wrote...
Were these honestly all the recommendations? The OP of the thread didn't mention a brief list like "I already played KotOR and all these other games." If so, I find myself at a loss for words (figuratively).


There was a lot of lamenting that the last "true" RPG (for all its faults, which were many) was MoTB. Then a lot of talk about indie developers and how mainstream developers don't make RPGs. 

But I'm pretty sure RPG codex barely thought DA:O was worth the title of an RPG, and that it was an insult to BG. 

#1864
the_one_54321

the_one_54321
  • Members
  • 6 112 messages

Foolsfolly wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
We play games in a day and age where developers are making shooters, slapping an RPG label over all the marketing, and enjoying runaway financial success. that you all are looking down in Gatt9 in spite of this is something I find fairly disturbing.

Let me just say this, games are supposed to be fun. End of the day that's the only requirement they need to meet. That's why games like the Sims sold so well, or that dreadful Nintendogs. Games only need to be fun.

The fact that good games, fun well made games, get shat on entirely because they aren't made like games nearly 20 years ago is fairly disturbing.

In Exile wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
We play games in a day and age where developers are making shooters, slapping an RPG label over all the marketing, and enjoying runaway financial success. that you all are looking down in Gatt9 in spite of this is something I find fairly disturbing.

I find the obsession over the label pretty disturbing, to be honest. I look down on anyone who cares more about the superficial label on the box than the contents themselves. 

Significant amount of irony here considering that you two are talking to the guy that has said on numerous occasions that I don't care whether or not people agree with me on whether or not something is "RPG" enough, so long as the specific features I want in the game are in the game.

Also a significant amount of irony in defending the "modernization" of games when all it really amounts to is "take what was popular before and make it just like every other generic game being made." The whole "it needs to be fun" argument is a complete crock because different people find different things fun. For people like myself, just about all games can be fun in their own way. And that is why we want all the games to be different. I play shooters. The ME franchise is mediocre so far as its shooter mechanics go. But its supposed RPG mechanics are worse. But it has a pretty darn entertaining story. Frankly I think I'd be most happy if they made ME3 play almost exactly like DA:O. But, if they just refine the shooter mechanics and make them actually play well, that would be just fine with me too.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 11 juillet 2011 - 09:08 .


#1865
Foolsfolly

Foolsfolly
  • Members
  • 4 770 messages

In Exile wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
We play games in a day and age where developers are making shooters, slapping an RPG label over all the marketing, and enjoying runaway financial success. that you all are looking down in Gatt9 in spite of this is something I find fairly disturbing.


I find the obsession over the label pretty disturbing, to be honest. I look down on anyone who cares more about the superficial label on the box than the contents themselves. 


I never liked the idea that mechanics are more important than story or player decision. Mechanics and game systems change all the time look at all the different versions of D&D over its long life. Rules change, mechanics are added, changed, or dropped, and the game remains played and enjoyed.

But video game RPGs have these fans that always swear that the old mechanics they grew up playing are the only mechanics that define an RPG.

The funny thing, to me, is that video game RPGs cannot and will never offer the same freedom as just doing a Pen and Paper game or getting a group of friends together for D&D. It just cannot ever. I have a friend named Eric who does not ever touch video game RPGs because of this fact. He sees them as pale small things that branding as labeled RPGs.

I disagree with him often on that.

To me the single most important things to RPGs are simple.

It must allow for the Player to decide personality. It must have options where the player chooses paths. It should reward and punish for choices these consquences should vary as much as possible to allow for as unique as possible of playthroughs.

And there should be a detailed world full of interesting characters and with an engrossing storyline.

That's the most important things. The player should take on responsibilty of their choices and navigate through as complex and well written of stories as possible.

The mechanics will change. The mechanics should change otherwise RPGs will die out similar to the Japanese RPG is. But as long as RPGs have player choice, reactions to those choices, and well done stories with interesting characters than it is an RPG.

#1866
Foolsfolly

Foolsfolly
  • Members
  • 4 770 messages

The whole "it needs to be fun" argument is a complete crock because different people find different things fun.


Fine. Then allow me to talk to you in a manner in which you are accustomed to thinking:


Hurk dur durr!

#1867
the_one_54321

the_one_54321
  • Members
  • 6 112 messages
Never mind that every single video game genre is defined by it's mechanics. Except RPGs. For some reason. Some indistinct, incommunicable reason.

#1868
VoiceOfPudding

VoiceOfPudding
  • Members
  • 157 messages
@ In Exile
People suggest good old movies all the time so that people who do not watch them the first time round may decide to do so and benefit from watching a good movie. Similarly, it's not exactly breaking the rules of logic to assume that a website that's, if the name is anything to go by, dedicated to rpg's would suggest old rpgs that other people may benefit from the experience. The fact that you're ridiculing Gatt9 for suggesting an rpg from 1990 says a lot about you.

#1869
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 789 messages

In Exile wrote...

Il Divo wrote...
Were these honestly all the recommendations? The OP of the thread didn't mention a brief list like "I already played KotOR and all these other games." If so, I find myself at a loss for words (figuratively).


There was a lot of lamenting that the last "true" RPG (for all its faults, which were many) was MoTB. Then a lot of talk about indie developers and how mainstream developers don't make RPGs. 

But I'm pretty sure RPG codex barely thought DA:O was worth the title of an RPG, and that it was an insult to BG. 


I just finished reading through that thread. If there is such thing as a "Hell on Earth", then that's probably it. I wonder how they enjoy....anything.

#1870
the_one_54321

the_one_54321
  • Members
  • 6 112 messages

Foolsfolly wrote...

The whole "it needs to be fun" argument is a complete crock because different people find different things fun.

Fine. Then allow me to talk to you in a manner in which you are accustomed to thinking:


Hurk dur durr!

Congratulations. You were the first person I witnessed acting like a [donkey] on the internet today. Considering how many people do that every day, it's quite an accomplishment.

Consider this:
Sports games? I think they're boring as hell, but there's millions of people that love them to death.
Racing games? Same story.
Shooters? I love shooters. Mostly brainless fire fights but a hell of a lot of fun.
Strategy games? Several different kinds with very different focus and I like most of them a lot.

So a game just needs to be fun right? Mix all those together. Whatever comes out should be orgasm in a electrical circuit, right?

The only thing "the game needs to be fun" accomplishes is that every new game is becoming more and more like the last huge blockbuster to sell millions of copies in one day.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 11 juillet 2011 - 09:21 .


#1871
Il Divo

Il Divo
  • Members
  • 9 789 messages

VoiceOfPudding wrote...

@ In Exile
People suggest good old movies all the time so that people who do not watch them the first time round may decide to do so and benefit from watching a good movie. Similarly, it's not exactly breaking the rules of logic to assume that a website that's, if the name is anything to go by, dedicated to rpg's would suggest old rpgs that other people may benefit from the experience. The fact that you're ridiculing Gatt9 for suggesting an rpg from 1990 says a lot about you.


Gatt9 didn't suggest them. In Exile was linking threads from RPG Codex.

Enjoy:

http://www.rpgcodex....der=asc&start=0

#1872
darth_lopez

darth_lopez
  • Members
  • 2 505 messages

the_one_54321 wrote...

We play games in a day and age where developers are making shooters, slapping an RPG label over all the marketing, and enjoying runaway financial success. that you all are looking down in Gatt9 in spite of this is something I find fairly disturbing.


what's disturbing is even under scrutiny Mass Effect 1 holds as an RPG fore most and Shotoer Second. Same with Fallout 3 and NV at least (which your statement also draws into light) These games are all first and fore most an RPG. Even DA2 is foremost an RPG. Honestly i know of no other RPG/S(s) that claim the title without actually qualifying as an RPG. Just because This isn't D&D or TES(which you probably also have a problem with) Doesn't mean it's not an RPG i find the attitude that shooter mechanics in an RPG or anything that breaks the normal bubble of a CRPG is somehow inherently bad.

#1873
VoiceOfPudding

VoiceOfPudding
  • Members
  • 157 messages

Il Divo wrote...

VoiceOfPudding wrote...

@ In Exile
People suggest good old movies all the time so that people who do not watch them the first time round may decide to do so and benefit from watching a good movie. Similarly, it's not exactly breaking the rules of logic to assume that a website that's, if the name is anything to go by, dedicated to rpg's would suggest old rpgs that other people may benefit from the experience. The fact that you're ridiculing Gatt9 for suggesting an rpg from 1990 says a lot about you.


Gatt9 didn't suggest them. In Exile was linking threads from RPG Codex.

Enjoy:

http://www.rpgcodex....der=asc&start=0


doesn't really change anything other than the fact that i'm now sticking up for rpgcodex

#1874
Foolsfolly

Foolsfolly
  • Members
  • 4 770 messages

the_one_54321 wrote...

Never mind that every single video game genre is defined by it's mechanics. Except RPGs. For some reason. Some indistinct, incommunicable reason.


Let's look at Strategy games.

Strategy games where you control whole armies against other forces. This can be turned based, isometric viewed, or even have heroes who level up and learn abilities. End of the day if you control armies against another army with a focus on strategy and tactics than it's an RTS. WarCraft 3, for example has heroes and inventories and is still a RTS game.

How about FPS.

You are a single character armed with weapons. The experience is focused on being this one person in this one event. It can have RPG elements, squad ordering, companions that follow you (though for a long time those types of escort missions were a bane to all those who live), and you can even have a game where you don't shoot anybody and still be a FPS. Or even First person games where the object is to avoid combat at all costs.

Puzzle games?

You play as no one and no army. Your objective to solve puzzles. Nothing else. Those puzzles can range from any manner of puzzle from any level of difficulty.

TPS?

Third person perspective. You shoot things. It can have RPG elements like GTA: San Andreas or Crackdown. It can have racing elements, squad combat, strategy elements even. All that matters is that the perspective is third person and you shoot a weapon.

And now we're at RPGs.

What do they need to be RPGs? You play a role that the player costumizes, other games allow this. You have inventory and skills? Other games have those as well. Does perspective matter? If so what about the Elder Scrolls games which allow for changing between First and Third whenever the player wants? Do the weapons count?

The biggest difference for RPGs and any other genre is how they tell their stories. In RTS you fight and win through tactics and stratagy. You play the campagin they design by defeating tougher and tougher armies until you win and see the story as told.

FPS and TPS are similar. You shoot the bad guys and beat the game as done.

Puzzle games, you beat them and feel sorta happy before starting another one.

RPGs allow for the player to make choices with consquences. They generally have a greater focus on world building on creating a world in which the player becomes engrossed in. The game reacts to player choices more often and in the end of the game it's more likely for an RPG to have multiple endings based on player choice.

None of these things are unique to RPGs. The Thief series is a FPS and its world was very detailed and included many books and NPC conversations that expanded on that world, giving it detail and engrossing the player. Many games have multiple endings. FPSs routinely have reactive enviroments. TPSs even have player choice have consquences, such as the Spliter Cell games.

But the key thing here is that the PC is your creation. Not only do you design the face, you decide how that character acts and reacts. And the game allows it.

Genres defined only by mechanics would have many exceptions and sub-genres and mixed genres. The entire point of genres was to define the differences between certain types of games. And the mechanics of those games have mingled with each other for so long that mechanics alone cannot be the only way to define a genre.

#1875
VoiceOfPudding

VoiceOfPudding
  • Members
  • 157 messages
on the subjest of persuasion skill/paragade system, i'd say go with persuasion skills but have it like VtMB: i thought this game handled dialogue skills brilliantly (i.e. they were actually worth investing in)