3223 réponses à ce sujet

[Mister Mida]

Phaedon wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

ME2's inventory, with all of the weapons feeling different and having different stat was easily more complex than it. 

What different stat? And you think that's way more complex than ME (1)'s system? I'd call it easily nothing better.

Yeah, because there are dozens of I-X versions of the same wweapon laying around, all with essentially the same stats.

And to answer your question:
Assault Rifle Models 

Below is a list of the types of assault rifles in Mass Effect 2 and their base stats:

*snip*

Different base damage,accuracy, modifiers, ammo per mag/total, and playstyle in general.

You assume I think ME (1)'s system was better. I don't. I just think people want to give both systems fancy names like complex, deep etc. just because they think it's better. Forgive me if I'm not gonna buy into that.

And many of those weapons are basically iterations of previous weapons (Revenant = Avenger++, etc.). Hmm, that looks familiar, doesn't it?

And I wonder why the devs never bothered to put those stats into the game when they have no problem putting it on the forum.

And I'm not gonna be surprised when ME3 hits shelves people will start ****in' about ME2's systems because ME3's system is more 'complex' and 'deep', giving ME2 the same bastard child treatment they've given ME (1).

But don't mind me. Please continue.

[Phaedon]

basically iterations of previous weapons

Huh?

Their playstyles are practically nothing unlike.

Try playing with the Avenger as a soldier and then switch to the Revenant. Avenger didn't support spray and pray for starters, since it's projectiles weren't as hard hitting. Instead, you basically defend yourself in long ranges, until you get close enough to take out several enemies at "once".

[Mister Mida]

Phaedon wrote...

basically iterations of previous weapons

Huh?

Their playstyles are practically nothing unlike.

Try playing with the Avenger as a soldier and then switch to the Revenant. Avenger didn't support spray and pray for starters, since it's projectiles weren't as hard hitting. Instead, you basically defend yourself in long ranges, until you get close enough to take out several enemies at "once".

You can have multiple playstyles with the same weapon, you know.

And you said it yourself, 'not as hard hitting', aka weapon A has a lower damage output than Weapon B, aka

basically iterations of previous weapons

[CannotCompute]

darth_lopez wrote...

if only BW let us see the stats(in game) v.v Looks like they will in ME 3 though ^^

Agreed, the absence of weapon stats was a real letdown. I don't want to visit some website to find out specifics.

Looks like the Weapon Workbench will show helpful stat bars, but I'm kind of hoping we'll also be able to look at gun stats via the Mission Computer menu.

Modifié par CannotCompute, 12 juillet 2011 - 10:28 .

[MassStorm]

Substantially we asked for RPG elements (statistics, exploration and LOOT) and we won't get it because they have decided to make ME3 a freaking interactive movie for dumb people. Fair enough if dumb players are the majority but for god's sake do not call it a RPG. It is not a RPG. RPGs are for intelligent beings.

[Phaedon]

What.

X>y

Z<w
Weapon A
DMG = X
ACC = Z


Weapon B
DMG=Y
ACC=Z

Different model, sound and playsty,le along with other stats, somehow same weapon.

[Dexi]

MassStorm wrote...

Substantially we asked for RPG elements (statistics, exploration and LOOT) and we won't get it because they have decided to make ME3 a freaking interactive movie for dumb people. Fair enough if dumb players are the majority but for god's sake do not call it a RPG. It is not a RPG. RPGs are for intelligent beings.

I laughed my ass off.... 

[Mister Mida]

Phaedon wrote...

What.

X>y

Z<w
Weapon A
DMG = X
ACC = Z


Weapon B
DMG=Y
ACC=Z

Different model, sound and playsty,le along with other stats, somehow same weapon.

Model and sound are cosmetic differences. I personally find them irrelevant. Like I said earlier, there are multiple playstyles for a weapon. Example, you can spray the enemy until your clip is empty, having less concentrated fire or you can fire in short but concentrated bursts.

Comparing the Avenger to the Revenant by the stats you posted earlier:

M-8 Avenger 

Manufacturer[/b]: Elkoss CombineBase Damage[/b]: 10.8
Damage Multipliers[/b] (Armor / Barriers / Shields): x1.25 / x1.25 / x1.25
Default ammo[/b]: 40 / 400[/list]
M-76 Revenant
 
Manufacturer[/b]: Unknown
Base Damage[/b]: 21.3
Damage Multipliers[/b] (Armor / Barriers / Shields): x1.4 / x1.2 / x1.2
Default ammo[/b]: 80 / 480[/list]
The Revenant compared to the Avenger:

Base Damage: +10.5
Damage Multipliers (Armor/ Barriers/ Shields): +0.15 / -0.05 / -0.05
Default ammo: +40/+80

Whether you find the Avenger's superior damage multipliers against barriers and shields a neglectable difference is up to you. But I personally find it fair to say that the Revenant is basically an iteration of the Avenger.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 12 juillet 2011 - 10:53 .

[MassStorm]

Dexi wrote...

MassStorm wrote...

Substantially we asked for RPG elements (statistics, exploration and LOOT) and we won't get it because they have decided to make ME3 a freaking interactive movie for dumb people. Fair enough if dumb players are the majority but for god's sake do not call it a RPG. It is not a RPG. RPGs are for intelligent beings.

I laughed my ass off.... 

Happy  you find it funny bacause i didn't

[Lumikki]

Dexi wrote...

MassStorm wrote...

Substantially we asked for RPG elements (statistics, exploration and LOOT) and we won't get it because they have decided to make ME3 a freaking interactive movie for dumb people. Fair enough if dumb players are the majority but for god's sake do not call it a RPG. It is not a RPG. RPGs are for intelligent beings.

I laughed my ass off....

Yeah, it's little funny.

RPG = intelligent beings
Interactive movies = dumb people

It has little conflict in what is sayed, because what it sayed is far from intelligent.

Modifié par Lumikki, 12 juillet 2011 - 10:58 .

[MassStorm]

Lumikki wrote...

Dexi wrote...

MassStorm wrote...

Substantially we asked for RPG elements (statistics, exploration and LOOT) and we won't get it because they have decided to make ME3 a freaking interactive movie for dumb people. Fair enough if dumb players are the majority but for god's sake do not call it a RPG. It is not a RPG. RPGs are for intelligent beings.

I laughed my ass off....

Yeah, it's little funny.

RPG = intelligent beings
Interactive movies = dumm people

It has little conflict in what sayed, because what it sayed is far from intelligent.

Well my friend i'm not an English native speaker so you should not make fun of that. Try to speak in a language that is not your native one and then maybe i will be the one to laugh

[Dangerfoot]

I find that an interactive narrative is just as indicative of the roleplaying genre as stats on weapons, probably more.

[Lumikki]

MassStorm wrote...

Well my friend i'm not an English native speaker so you should not make fun of that. Try to speak in a language that is not your native one and then maybe i will be the one to laugh

My native language is also not english.  Also the little fun part wasn't in language, it was in messages "insult", what short of back fired.

[Phaedon]

Mida, I find your luck of accuracy stats disturb ing, considering that it is what creates spate and pray in conjuction with high dmg stat. Refer to the wikia page. I mentioned ACC in my previous post for a reason.

By your ogic, high level shotgun s in ME are essentially sniper rifles. Just because you could try to play that way, it doesn't mean that it is a reiteration of the same weapon.

[Someone With Mass]

If you want statistics, ME3 has that. More advanced so than ME1, since you can now choose freely if you want to do more damage or have a larger AOE and the likes.

As for the loot, you can probably find weapon mods, upgrades, credits, new weapons and such. That's loot too, you just don't have to deal with the inventory, since the game sorts it out for you and makes replicas of those items when needed.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 12 juillet 2011 - 11:09 .

[EternalPink]

MassStorm wrote...

Substantially we asked for RPG elements (statistics, exploration and LOOT) and we won't get it because they have decided to make ME3 a freaking interactive movie for dumb people. Fair enough if dumb players are the majority but for god's sake do not call it a RPG. It is not a RPG. RPGs are for intelligent beings.

lol i think a simple google for walkthoughs/guides/trainers for basically any RPG there ever has been will show you that it takes no more intelligence to play an RPG game than any other game (did read a study about how FPS games apparently help teach you how to make more snap decisions but they don't raise/lower intelligence) so other than attempting to troll i can't think why you've brought up the intelligence of the target audience as a reason for changing the game.

Personnally i thought the ME1 inventory and customisation was cool... at the start of the game, by the time you've finished the game and if you want all squad mates and possible squad mates to have good kit and be levelled up it required spending just as much time going through the lockers on the normandy as it did completing the missions.

So as someone that imported from ME1 to ME2 straight away since i'd brought ME1 late and ME2 had just come out i did not miss that irritation

[Mister Mida]

Phaedon wrote...

Mida, I find your luck of accuracy stats disturb ing, considering that it is what creates spate and pray in conjuction with high dmg stat. Refer to the wikia page. I mentioned ACC in my previous post for a reason.

By your ogic, high level shotgun s in ME are essentially sniper rifles. Just because you could try to play that way, it doesn't mean that it is a reiteration of the same weapon.

Shotguns are sniper rifles? Obvious hyperbole is obious.

From my personal experience, the accuracy difference between the Avenger and the Revenant is neglectable. I don't see a big difference, and I don't know how the folks who measure accuracy do it, so once again it's up to personal preference.

And lower accuracy for a higher damage output? Again, that sounds pretty familiar. ME (1) had that as well.

I don't think either side is gonna agree with the other's standpoint, so I think we should just agree to disagree ... until the next topic of debate

But I still have a question for you? If you could choose out of both the Avenger and the Revenant, why would you not choose the Revenant? Is it really that much less accurate for you to pick the Avenger over it?

Modifié par Mister Mida, 12 juillet 2011 - 11:23 .

[Phaedon]

First off, high level shotguns can cause headshots perfectly fine.

What is a stretch is to say that the accuracy difference is negligible. I assume that you just discovered that.

Higher damage for lower accuracy in ME1?

I am currently replaying the game and I can confirm that weapons rarely if ever have drawback s over their predecessor s.
Even if that' was true, you are still forgetting about the rest of the stats that didn't even exist in the first game.
Other than that, thanks for reaffirming my point. Even the most advanced has drawbacks towards the per collector ship ARs..

[Mister Mida]

Phaedon wrote...

First off, high level shotguns can cause headshots perfectly fine.

What is a stretch is to say that the accuracy difference is negligible. I assume that you just discovered that.

Higher damage for lower accuracy in ME1?

I am currently replaying the game and I can confirm that weapons rarely if ever have drawback s over their predecessor s.
Even if that' was true, you are still forgetting about the rest of the stats that didn't even exist in the first game.
Other than that, thanks for reaffirming my point. Even the most advanced has drawbacks towards the per collector ship ARs..

Sure, buddy. Feel free to believe your own story. I do it too.

[littlezack]

darth_lopez wrote...

littlezack wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Yeah, I think so. Why?

I allways have high respect to you, because most the time you make well thinked posts what are usually every constructive. Only problem is this bitterness agaist Biowars design direction, what you carry over in every post.

It was more the "girl" part I was referring to. I'm not female. Perhaps I need to stop using Femshep as an avatar.

And sorry, but it's hard not to be bitter at BioWare after Dragon Age 2. It was a god-damned betrayal

You take things too seriously. It's not a 'betrayal', they just made a game you didn't like. One game, I might add. They don't owe you anything, you don't owe them anything, they're not under any obligation to make games you like, and the fact that they didn't doesn't constitute them stabbing you in the back. They make games. You buy them or don't buy them. That is the extent of your relationship with Bioware.

No imma have to side with Terror here BWs Main line is "We make good Stories" What was DA 2?  it wasn't that the mechanics were too dumbed down (i'm sure it didn't help it's case though) it's not that it's combat couldn't be exillerating. What killed it for me, and my compadres at least, was that the story that was advertised "How Hawke Becomes the most important person in Thedas neh the DA universe" was not there. From Day 1 hawke was Portrayed as awesome the most important guy in the lore etc. What did we get? some slum dog climbing his way to the top, not that it wasn't interesting it just wasn't a good story we have countless moments where hawke just does stuff for no good apparent reason. we have even more moments where what he does makes little to no sense with the end result. We have even more moments where no matter what option you picked to help mages they continuosly betrayed your trust  we have a story that should've been 5 acts long but got cut at 3 and had a nonsense ending that didn't explain maybe 90% of what we wanted to know going into the game. We Had Qunari who literally only served the purpose of Random Unecessary antagonist #2 because BW couldn't think of anything to compliment the Idol section of story. We have literally a game, which unlike it's predecessor, was driven entirely off sex and violence (sigmund freuds favorite game ever = DA2) Hawkes personal story while interesting and entertaining for some on the story telling level was a massive let down. The Series would've been better off if it stopped at Awakenings or Just kept getting DLC. Because that's about what DA 2 was worth the Cost of Lelianas song. For the story that was presented It should have been no more than 10 dollars. Bioware literally did a 180 on a series that had great mechanics good story and was so close to perfect RPG and killed it.they flaunted important characters from the original yet did nothing with them. Flemmeth's role?  morrigans story?  where were the continuations?  why thorugh out the entire of a game whos predecessor was built on choice and options did this game make players feel like their choices bore no weight. we we promised mountains story wise and we got 2 inch mounds of shifty sand.

DA 2 was a betrayal out right. Bioware Failed the community by releasing it and the DA 2 team should be fired. What's worse is not only did they make a ****ty story and a rather ****ty game but one person at least had the gull to go to metacritc and try boosting the games stats. DA 2 was the worst game in Bioware history.

It's one bad game. Some companies make them all the time. Some companies make nothing but them. It's not cause to fire people, and it's doesn't equal to Bioware 'failing' the community. It's not that serious. Hell, people treat DA2 like it's the worst RPG ever made, but there are far - FAR - worse ones out even in this generation alone.

Modifié par littlezack, 12 juillet 2011 - 02:56 .

[AlanC9]

Stepping back a bit...

Terror_K wrote...

I don't get why so many people are blind to the fact that ME2's popularity is evidence of it selling-out and dumbing down for the masses.

I'm not blind to it, myself. I just find it utterly irrelevant.

Most of the changes from ME1 to ME2 I liked on the merits, sometimes very much so; changes such as more shooterish combat, no kill XP, XP awards at the end of missions, and no loot. Most of the other changes, such as the episodic game structure, struck me as a wash. A couple things I didn't like much . On balance, I consider it a much better game. YMMV, obviously.

What possible relevance could Bio's motives for making these changes have for me? Either I like the changes, or I don't. Even if I didn't like the changes, what relevance would Bio's motives have for me?

The fact that the "masses" like something doesn't keep me from liking it. I've got enough elite tastes if I need to feel superior to them. Although now that Arcade Fire's won a Grammy I'm going to have to work on my music snobbery a bit.

Modifié par AlanC9, 12 juillet 2011 - 03:11 .

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...
The fact that the "masses" like something doesn't keep me from liking it. I've got enough elite tastes if I need to feel superior to them. Although now that Arcade Fire's won a Grammy I'm going to have to work on my music snobbery a bit.

I've never understood why people feel superior for their tastes. I just don't understand how people can take pride in something that clearly isn't even possible to be conceived of as an achievement. 

[sp0ck 06]

AlanC9 wrote...

Stepping back a bit...

Terror_K wrote...

I don't get why so many people are blind to the fact that ME2's popularity is evidence of it selling-out and dumbing down for the masses.

I'm not blind to it, myself. I just find it utterly irrelevant.

Most of the changes from ME1 to ME2 I liked on the merits, sometimes very much so; changes such as more shooterish combat, no kill XP, XP awards at the end of missions, and no loot. Most of the other changes, such as the episodic game structure, struck me as a wash. A couple things I didn't like much . On balance, I consider it a much better game.

What possible relevance could Bio's motives for making these changes have for me? Either I like the changes, or I don't. Even if I didn't like the changes, what relevance would Bio's motives have for me?

The fact that the "masses" like something doesn't keep me from liking it. I've got enough elite tastes if I need to feel superior to them. Although now that Arcade Fire's won a Grammy I'm going to have to work on my music snobbery a bit.

This.

Also:  

So any game designed to appeal to the largest audience is automatically "dumb"?  Bioware should have purposefully designed the game for a small, specific set of people?  What's so wrong with the game being popular?  Oh thats right, it must be less intelligent, or more shallow, since it's not a hardcore RPG.  Because RPG fans are smarter than everyone else?

I just don't understand this attitude.  Don't get me wrong, I love old school RPGs.  I grew up playing Fallout, Betrayal at Krondor, and BG series.  But that's just not the kind of game ME is.  I also don't believe there's anything inherently superior about those games.  I enjoyed them because they were great games, not because they had a boatload of stats and tons of loot.  I also consider Call of Duty (the original, mind you) to be a great game.  Why is it so important for ME to conform to a specific genre?  The attitude seems to be "ME2 lacks x and y RPG elements, therefore it is a lesser game, 'dumbed down,' 'mindless.'"  I don't think that's a valid point of criticism.  I wouldn't say "The Matrix Revolutions was a bad action movie because it didn't have car chase seen, and every good action movie has a car chase scene."  

If you want to attack the game (and it had many flaws), criticize it as a game, not as an RPG.

[Phaedon]

Right. So the temperature is finally cool enough for me to be able to enter the building and use my PC instead of my smartphone. I'll probably manage to post properly now.

Mister Mida wrote...
Sure, buddy. Feel free to believe your own story. I do it too.

So, in short, your grand argument is "cool story, bro?"

You want to talk in facts?

-High level shotguns can "headshot" people.
It's a fact. I was actually tasked to compile a huge list of ME1 weapons for MEC. The catch is that I had to convert all stats into percentages.

VIIIs, IXs and Xs can headshot someone who is not too far away in extreme distances. It's a common complaint about ME1.

-The accuracy difference between the Revenant and the Avenger is certainly noticeable.

Even if you manage to research us many upgrades as possible before or after getting it, it still has an effective style of how you play. Who doesn't spray and pray with the Revenant? Who exactly uses it as a high accuracy rifle?

-Stats in ME1
As I said, I am currently in the process of another playthrough. The only time that any stat other than the ATK/DMG one matters, is on the rare occasion where the weapons have the same ATK (I am not sure if that's due to upgrades). You could literally have no inventory and only change the texture and ATK stat of your assault rifle per mission, and the result would still be the same.

-Revenant VS Avenger
The Revenant is not supposed to be unlocked till late into the game, and even then, it's not clearly superior than the Avenger or the Vindicator. Though the debate should really be Avenger VS Vindicator. Not Avenger VS Revenant. Every weapon in ME2 feels different.

Have even more diversity and more choices, and that's all I want as an inventory in ME3

In Exile wrote...

I've never understood why people feel superior for their tastes. I just don't understand how people can take pride in something that clearly isn't even possible to be conceived of as an achievement. 

Because I have been playing video games before they were mainstream, that's why. 

Modifié par Phaedon, 12 juillet 2011 - 03:40 .

[Phaedon]

MassStorm wrote...

Substantially we asked for RPG elements (statistics, exploration and LOOT) and we won't get it because they have decided to make ME3 a freaking interactive movie for dumb people. Fair enough if dumb players are the majority but for god's sake do not call it a RPG. It is not a RPG. RPGs are for intelligent beings.

If RPGs are only for intelligent people, and Shooters are for retarded people, then adventure games are for geniuses. 

Screw "RPGCodex.com" and "Shooterclip.com", I am switching to "AdventureInventory.com"!

As for "interactive movies that you shoot stuff" I can actually think of several point and click adventures that had such segments (that were also true interactive movies with FMV). See the irony?

If you think that ME2 is an interactive movie where you shoot stuff, what's your opinion of this:


?


EDIT:
I'll just post this here instead of making a triple post... What is with sticking the term "generic" to games liked by the "masses"?

I personally find it a bit funny, because you know, I thought that the argument was that "ME1-3 are not RPGs unless they have the following elements of the RPG formula" and that they would rather see "ME3 play like KOTOR or DA:O".

And well, aren't BG1 and 2, and KOTOR and NWN, and DA:O, etcetera etcetera, liked by the masses? Does that make them generic or mainstream? Or that they are dumbed down?

However, since shooter/RPG hybrids aren't that common, I hereby rename these series Hipster Effect! Now, no one will be able to stick the terms "generic" or "mainstream" to this trilogy!

Modifié par Phaedon, 12 juillet 2011 - 03:56 .