3223 réponses à ce sujet

[darth_lopez]

littlezack wrote...

 Betrayal would imply that Bioware actually owes its fans anything. It really doesn't. You never gave them any sort of charity - they made games and you bought them, they provided a service and you paid for it.

betrayal has no implication of owing the fans anything, It simply means they told us and promised to deliver one thing then did something else entirely. I don't know where people get the implication that when someone is betrayed the betrayer owes the betrayee that's not how betrayal  works.

Press release

"With Dragon Age 2 we are creating an exciting new entry point into the Dragon Age universe while ensuring that fans of the
original game retain a sense of satisfaction and familiarity in the world," said Dragon Age 2 Executive Producer Mark Darrah.
"We are amplifying the things that made Dragon Age: Origins such a huge success while introducing a more dynamic combat
system, improving the graphics, and telling the most important story in our world."

This didn't happen plane and simple is was what they said they were selling the whole time through and DA 2 was what we got not what they claimed.

Like i said i'll give you it was an inevitability eventually the BW would make a ****ty game and that maybe many fans have held them to too high a standard but it still doesn't change the fact that what they said and what we got is not what they said we would get if we bought the game. that's a betrayal


Edit: the key point is we trusted there pretty words while they slipped us something else That is a betrayal.

Modifié par darth_lopez, 12 juillet 2011 - 08:09 .

[littlezack]

If you're going to use press releases, then just about every videogame company ever made is guilty of betraying their fans at some point, because no company is ever going to openly state that their game isn't good.

Also it's 'plain', not 'plane'.

[darth_lopez]

littlezack wrote...

If you're going to use press releases, then just about every videogame company ever made is guilty of betraying their fans at some point, because no company is ever going to openly state that their game isn't good.

Also it's 'plain', not 'plane'.

i'm sure they have, infact if you look at many video game fanbases, many for major companies like BW, DICE, COD, etc.. the big names with the big games, have been feeling betrayed by the devs or publisher. As far as the use of press releases go would you prefer magics? or no source of their comments?

not used to using plain in the none math spelling my bad i normally don't say plain and simple (and i thought plain was like the airplane spelling too bad spell check in mozill astill doesn't get contextual errors) Any who that's not a particularly important tid bit of info is it you knew what i was saying when you read it spelling or not. absolutely hate it when people point out spelling errors in some vague attempt to discredit the poster as if spelling is corallary to intelligence or accuracy of post or knowledge or anything important :/

Modifié par darth_lopez, 12 juillet 2011 - 08:24 .

[Raxxman]

Il Divo wrote...


They're effectively the same problem. If I think I'm right (as most posters here do), I won't admit to being proven wrong, so we arrive at the same problem. Which is why your argument that "most get stuck in a mindset" is rather pointless, since it happens to everyone.

Not really,

The biggest problem is people in general fail to distinguish between a fact, and an opinion. They defer to their opinion to be stronger than any evidence brought against them because they lack the higher reasoning to do otherwise, and they’re coddled in society to believe that ‘everyone is entitled to their own opinion’ means that ‘everyone is right’. Opinions that aren’t backed up by evidence are subjective at best and often based mainly on conjecture, people need to be able to draw a line when using conjecture and accept that the conclusions drawn can be different. It’s entirely different when you use conjecture on a situation that can be clearly defined, or when you fail to interpret the facts in a logical way and draw false conclusion. I am essentially saying they’re too
dumb to know any different.

People may hate to admit they’re wrong, but they REALLY hate to admit they’re average. You take a population of Westerners and ask them what they think they’re IQ is and you’ll get an average well over 120. Nearly everyone
on this forum will consider them at least as intelligent as everyone else, very few people will admit they’re not the sharpest tool in the box because of ego.

The internet is not going to force maturity on people because it allows you to hide behind the shield of anonymity, this really allows immaturity to flow if anything.



*Edited due to formating issues*

Modifié par Raxxman, 12 juillet 2011 - 08:28 .

[Il Divo]

darth_lopez wrote...

Edit: the key point is we trusted there pretty words while they slipped us something else That is a betrayal.

As Zack pointed out, every game developer wants to build up his product. I could take any video game which I did not enjoy and call it a betrayal by pointing out how the developers promised something which I do not think they delivered. Betrayal is too melodramatic a word simply to describe  your dislike of a company's current product vs. past products.

[Veex]

BioWare betrayed me with Dragon Age: Origins. They said it was the "spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate"!! I am so angry.

[littlezack]

darth_lopez wrote...

littlezack wrote...

If you're going to use press releases, then just about every videogame company ever made is guilty of betraying their fans at some point, because no company is ever going to openly state that their game isn't good.

Also it's 'plain', not 'plane'.

i'm sure they have, infact if you look at many video game fanbases, many for major companies like BW, DICE, COD, etc.. the big names with the big games, have been feeling betrayed by the devs or publisher. As far as the use of press releases go would you prefer magics? or no source of their comments?

not used to using plain in the none math spelling my bad i normally don't say plain and simple (and i thought plain was like the airplane spelling too bad spell check in mozill astill doesn't get contextual errors) Any who that's not a particularly important tid bit of info is it you knew what i was saying when you read it spelling or not. absolutely hate it when people point out spelling errors in some vague attempt to discredit the poster as if spelling is corallary to intelligence or accuracy of post or knowledge or anything important :/

Normally, I wouldn't point it out, but you KEEP DOING IT, so...

At any rate, like I said, every company says their game is good prior to release, and usually after. Seriously, you can find a press release where a game company openly admitted their game wasn't good?

[darth_lopez]

Il Divo wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Edit: the key point is we trusted there pretty words while they slipped us something else That is a betrayal.

As Zack pointed out, every game developer wants to build up his product. I could take any video game which I did not enjoy and call it a betrayal by pointing out how the developers promised something which I do not think they delivered. Betrayal is too melodramatic a word simply to describe  your dislike of a company's current product vs. past products.

Did i say i dislike DA2? (i actually enjoyed the game decently about as long as i did DA:O) liking or disliking the product doesn't change the fact that it wasn't what was promised. like does not equal good dislike does not equal bad. What makes DA 2 isn't that it's not entertaining or like-able  it's the bad story execution and progression and reasoning mostly. I'm not using it (the word betrayal) to describe my personal dislike of the game(my overall opinion of it is B to B+ range game)  I'm using it to describe their actions in relation to their claims. Being able to see the flaws in a game does not inhernetly mean one dislikes the game.

[Phaedon]

Define "promised".

Maybe DA2's story was considered good by some, maybe the gameplay as well.

[darth_lopez]

littlezack wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

littlezack wrote...

If you're going to use press releases, then just about every videogame company ever made is guilty of betraying their fans at some point, because no company is ever going to openly state that their game isn't good.

Also it's 'plain', not 'plane'.

i'm sure they have, infact if you look at many video game fanbases, many for major companies like BW, DICE, COD, etc.. the big names with the big games, have been feeling betrayed by the devs or publisher. As far as the use of press releases go would you prefer magics? or no source of their comments?

not used to using plain in the none math spelling my bad i normally don't say plain and simple (and i thought plain was like the airplane spelling too bad spell check in mozill astill doesn't get contextual errors) Any who that's not a particularly important tid bit of info is it you knew what i was saying when you read it spelling or not. absolutely hate it when people point out spelling errors in some vague attempt to discredit the poster as if spelling is corallary to intelligence or accuracy of post or knowledge or anything important :/

Normally, I wouldn't point it out, but you KEEP DOING IT, so...

At any rate, like I said, every company says their game is good prior to release, and usually after. Seriously, you can find a press release where a game company openly admitted their game wasn't good?

here maybe not a press release specifically but nevertheless a statment Like i said i'm not saying they're going down hill i'm not saying it wasn't just one game i'm just saying the screw up was very big and that there claims were substantially different from what we recieved.

furthermore DICE does the same thing in this article granted they're talking about visuals it's still an admission of it may not be quite as good as some expect. I don't ever recall this for DA 2 until after release

[Brenon Holmes]

And we're drifting... drifting... drifting... Not to stifle your very interesting discussion, but unless it's more ME focused - it's probably a better discussion for a more general forum. :happy:

Modifié par Brenon Holmes, 12 juillet 2011 - 08:51 .

[Razagon]

Brenon you got any hints for us what you guys are up to? Any interesting problems you're looking into?

[Grunk]

I liked DA2 far better than DA:O, both in terms of how interesting I felt the story and characters were and how fun the gamplay was for me. I played Fallout 1 and all that. I don't feel betrayed by Bioware. I'm excited to see what they cook up next and hope I don't loathe it like I did Jade Empire.

[Phaedon]

Brenon Holmes wrote...

And we're drifting... drifting... drifting... Not to stifle your very interesting discussion, but unless it's more ME focused - it's probably a better discussion for a more general forum. :happy:

Just wondering Brenon, do you have an opinion on RPGs?

[darth_lopez]

Phaedon wrote...

Define "promised".

i think i started using the word claim because it's more accurate to the situationedit(i see now where i used it promise. )

Maybe DA2's story was considered good by some, maybe the gameplay as well.

Well someone has to consider the story good somewhere. Just for a typical Bioware story(and comparing it to past bioware games is  a perfectly fine basis) it wasn't so great. Compared to most Movies or books it wasn't so great.  unlike DA:O or ME1 or KOTOR etc... all of which had great stories comparable to good movies or books like most bioware games. It was more like the KOTOR 2 (by obsidian) where the gameplay is in general fun and good and exillerating and presents a couple of new interesting features but the story is loose poorly structure and poorly executed with a rather lacking conclusion.

Personally i find the game enjoyable i just realize it has some pretty big flaws is all. and that it doesn't match anything we were told at least that i know of.

i'm confident that Mass Effect 3 will be good though. It looked at least a little more detailed thane ME 2 at the very least i wonder what version of fem shep they'll use on the cover...

Modifié par darth_lopez, 12 juillet 2011 - 09:09 .

[Phaedon]

darth_lopez wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Define "promised".

i think i started using the word claim because it's more accurate to the situation

Maybe DA2's story was considered good by some, maybe the gameplay as well.

Well someone has to consider the story good somewhere. Just for a typical Bioware story(and comparing it to past bioware games is  a perfectly fine basis) it wasn't so great. Compared to most Movies or books it wasn't so great.  unlike DA:O or ME1 or KOTOR etc... all of which had great stories comparable to good movies or books like most bioware games. It was more like the KOTOR 2 (by obsidian) where the gameplay is in general fun and good and exillerating and presents a couple of new interesting features but the story is loose poorly structure and poorly executed with a rather lacking conclusion.

Personally i find the game enjoyable i just realize it has some pretty big flaws is all. and that it doesn't match anything we were told at least that i know of.

I left a comment on your profile instead, so that we don't go off-topic. 

Modifié par Phaedon, 12 juillet 2011 - 09:03 .

[darth_lopez]

Phaedon wrote...

darth_lopez wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Define "promised".

i think i started using the word claim because it's more accurate to the situation

Maybe DA2's story was considered good by some, maybe the gameplay as well.

Well someone has to consider the story good somewhere. Just for a typical Bioware story(and comparing it to past bioware games is  a perfectly fine basis) it wasn't so great. Compared to most Movies or books it wasn't so great.  unlike DA:O or ME1 or KOTOR etc... all of which had great stories comparable to good movies or books like most bioware games. It was more like the KOTOR 2 (by obsidian) where the gameplay is in general fun and good and exillerating and presents a couple of new interesting features but the story is loose poorly structure and poorly executed with a rather lacking conclusion.

Personally i find the game enjoyable i just realize it has some pretty big flaws is all. and that it doesn't match anything we were told at least that i know of.

I left a comment on your profile so that we don't go off-topic. 

thanks ^^ i hope it shows up soon>.> and this has been a good topic

Modifié par darth_lopez, 12 juillet 2011 - 09:07 .

[EternalPink]

darth_lopez wrote...

littlezack wrote...

 Betrayal would imply that Bioware actually owes its fans anything. It really doesn't. You never gave them any sort of charity - they made games and you bought them, they provided a service and you paid for it.

betrayal has no implication of owing the fans anything, It simply means they told us and promised to deliver one thing then did something else entirely. I don't know where people get the implication that when someone is betrayed the betrayer owes the betrayee that's not how betrayal  works.

Press release

"With Dragon Age 2 we are creating an exciting new entry point into the Dragon Age universe while ensuring that fans of the
original game retain a sense of satisfaction and familiarity in the world," said Dragon Age 2 Executive Producer Mark Darrah.
"We are amplifying the things that made Dragon Age: Origins such a huge success while introducing a more dynamic combat
system, improving the graphics, and telling the most important story in our world."

This didn't happen plane and simple is was what they said they were selling the whole time through and DA 2 was what we got not what they claimed.

Like i said i'll give you it was an inevitability eventually the BW would make a ****ty game and that maybe many fans have held them to too high a standard but it still doesn't change the fact that what they said and what we got is not what they said we would get if we bought the game. that's a betrayal


Edit: the key point is we trusted there pretty words while they slipped us something else That is a betrayal.

From all the abuse and the creation of a owners only forum i don't think DA2 was well recieved but for me it didn't fall down on the lack of stats (it had stats it just didn't explain them very well and there was only 2 per class you really needed to bother with) or the lack of party inventory but the lack of different possible outcomes, take the mine side quest whether your a nice employer or a nasty employer they all end up dead and theres nothing you can do to change that.

I picked it up as a budget game a couple of months after release and as a budget purchase i was satisfied (hell for the price of a macdonalds for two it would have to have set my PC on fire and ran away with my girl to make me unsatisfied)

In ME2 the real differences between some of the outcomes are small but it does a much better job of giving you an illusion that it matter, take whether the council is alive or not, other than re-instatement it has no real affect on playing the game but it totally affects the tone of the universe that your playing in

[Blue Face Beast]

What is a good RPG in my own opinion:

1) An immersive ( you really feel that you are someone else living in an environment far away from real life ) world. It may be either magical or technological, in the past or in the future, but it feels real while being strange or different from our time.

2) You have moral dilemmas and there are consequences to your actions.

3) You have major objectives to accomplish but there are also alot of optional things to do that are either related or NOT even related at all with the main plot.

4) There is an engaging and exciting combat system that offers lot of room for experimentation with multiple skills and different weapons.

5) Memorable villains and companions with complex personalities and their own agenda. Some turn into being plain evil while some others are more complicated than they seem to be.

6) There is a progression with your main character. He is becoming more "badass" or competent as he experience more adventures. This may be shown by the wealth ( equipment ) he acquires, the more skills he develops, the more allies he makes, the more influence he has.

7) REPLAY VALUE ( It is always fun to experience again a GOOD RPG when you can replay it differently ) Either by having an alternate storyline and/or starting with different abilities.

8) Not too many Puzzles because once you solve them a first time, there is really low replay value to them and they become just a hassle to redo.


My RPG benchmark these days: The Witcher 1-2, Arcanum, Fallout 1-2, Baldurs Gate 1-2, Suikoden ( all ), Mass Effect 1-2, Dragon Age Origin, Final Fantasy ( all ).

[The Spamming Troll]

Terror_K wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

Yeah, I think so. Why?

I allways have high respect to you, because most the time you make well thinked posts what are usually every constructive. Only problem is this bitterness agaist Biowars design direction, what you carry over in every post.

It was more the "girl" part I was referring to. I'm not female. Perhaps I need to stop using Femshep as an avatar.

And sorry, but it's hard not to be bitter at BioWare after Dragon Age 2. It was a god-damned betrayal, symbolising everything I hate about modern games and confirming my fears about where BioWare had gone and showing me that they had fallen far quicker than even I had thought.

aw man so your not some super cute girl with shoulder length red hair that loves playing ME????

damnit man!

oops, well i guess im not exactly a rooster either.......the other avatars suck i wish i could do a custom one.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 12 juillet 2011 - 11:48 .

[Gatt9]

Phaedon wrote...

I'll just post this here instead of making a triple post... What is with sticking the term "generic" to games liked by the "masses"?

I personally find it a bit funny, because you know, I thought that the argument was that "ME1-3 are not RPGs unless they have the following elements of the RPG formula" and that they would rather see "ME3 play like KOTOR or DA:O".

And well, aren't BG1 and 2, and KOTOR and NWN, and DA:O, etcetera etcetera, liked by the masses? Does that make them generic or mainstream? Or that they are dumbed down?

Because a game that is aimed at "Mass Market" generally has a number of characteristic features removed,  because the new target audience finds them unappealing.

For an RPG,  the first thing to go is pretty consistently the "To hit" roll.  Because the masses have a long standing tendency to not understand the concepts of dodging and deflection.  Usually the next thing to go is diplomacy skills,  because the masses don't understand why their options for talking should be limited by the Character's qualities.  From there,  you generally end up with Bethseda,  remove anything that even remotely resembles an RPG mechanic.

It's not limited to RPG's though.  You'll find it in Strategy,  where turn-based thinking style is rapidly axed for RTS "Click as fast as you can! And just aim a large mob at the other guy!" style.  You'll see it in FPS/TPS where health packs,  and limited ammo are removed.  Every genre has it to a degree.

What you end up with is "Generic".  Anything with any complexity is removed to reduce the game to only it's most fundamental characteristics.

ME2 and maybe 3 fit that bill.  ME2 had most of the RPG elements axed (All IMO),  Exploration,  Loot,  complicated things like areas that weren't a straight corridor,  grenades,  it avoided implementing ammo in a sensical way.  It was reduced to the most fundamental characteristics,  all complexity completely eliminated,  such that it was really nothing more than a straight TPS with dialogue.

However, since shooter/RPG hybrids aren't that common, I hereby rename these series Hipster Effect! Now, no one will be able to stick the terms "generic" or "mainstream" to this trilogy!

There's a reason why they're not common,  they're bad design.  The premise behind them is inherently flawed.  All you have is an FPS/TPS with it's UI intentionally crippled to tack on a "Leveling system".  All the system does is progressively decrease the crippled UI to full FPS/TPS.  Once the player has "Leveled" enough,  they can overcome the handicap,  and the entire leveling system is rendered completely redundant.

ME2 didn't have that problem though,  it wasn't a hybrid.  It was a straight up TPS,  as the leveling system was completely redundant from the word "Go".  As I've said,  you kill a YMIR at level 2,  and he's equivalent to any and every "Big boss" in the game,  so since you can kill him,  you can kill all of them,  which is a characteristic of a Shooter.

ME3 remains to be seen.

[konfeta]

Because a game that is aimed at "Mass Market" generally has a number of characteristic features removed, because the new target audience finds them unappealing.

For an RPG, the first thing to go is pretty consistently the "To hit" roll.

Heh. The "to hit roll" always has been the single most aggravating thing in any RPG I played. My number one goal every time is to optimize it out of existence.

Unfortunately that level of optimization almost always turns the game into easy mode because "to hit" rolls are often the main substitute for complexity in combat.

[Lunatic LK47]

Gatt9 wrote...


It's not limited to RPG's though.  You'll find it in Strategy,  where turn-based thinking style is rapidly axed for RTS "Click as fast as you can! And just aim a large mob at the other guy!" style.  You'll see it in FPS/TPS where health packs,  and limited ammo are removed.  Every genre has it to a degree.

Wow, and I'm glad you're not a U.S. General. I'm pretty sure every soldier in the military would commit fratricide with your name at the top of the list just because you're incompetent with split-second decisions.

Modifié par Lunatic LK47, 13 juillet 2011 - 01:19 .

[Praetor Knight]

Since this thread is still going, I remembered I didn't respond to the OP directly before.

Darji wrote...

Guess they havent learned anthing from the feedback they recieved with Dragon Age 2.

I have to disagree.

With everything we've seen of ME3, the team working on ME3 is getting it right!

[Lunatic LK47]

konfeta wrote...

Heh. The "to hit roll" always has been the single most aggravating thing in any RPG I played. My number one goal every time is to optimize it out of existence.

Unfortunately that level of optimization almost always turns the game into easy mode because "to hit" rolls are often the main substitute for complexity in combat.

Pretty much my experience with both KOTOR 1 and Mass Effect 1. I always end up power-gaming just to make the game remotely fun, and having played a ROM of Earthbound for the Super NES, I'm actually glad with the direction Mass Effect went in terms of making the game remotely fun.