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[Someone With Mass]

Phaedon wrote...
I still don't see the point in this discussion. Does a copy/paste inventory make a better game, or does carrying the good functions of an inventory and adding some more?

As long as I can find what I want when I want it, without having to play warehouse worker (because I do enough of that in real life), I really don't care. 

[Sarevok Synder]

Shepard the Leper wrote...


You mean the weapon locker one feet from the place you find the new weapon?

Can you explain how this is different compared to the Deus Es style?

Yeah, it was just plain stupid having a weapons locker just like the Normandy one on the collectors ship. Plus an inventory would allow for weapon mods on the fly. Something we're not going to have in ME3. Oh well!

[Phaedon]

Sarevok Synder wrote...
And having a Deus Ex style inventory prevents this how? 

The vast majority of DE weapons are not comparable to any other weapons. You don't have 3 assault rifles to choose from, for example. I said that "that defeats the point of weapon types" for a reason.

[Terror_K]

Phaedon wrote...

Terror_K wrote...
In some ways Mass Effect should copy Gears of War. Gears actually does TPS combat a lot better than either ME title so far and manages to keep things more interesting and varied, rather than just feeling like the same "get to obvious ambush area, fight waves, run to next ambush area or cutscene, rinse and repeat" etc.

Or it can actually be creative and do new stuff without copy/pasting from generic RPGs and TPSs.

Actually, perhaps "copy" is not the best term. "Imitate" and "learn from" would be better. If Mass Effect wants to do proper TPS combat, then it should at least do it properly, instead of just giving us the bare-bones elements and little else, and look to what works and doesn't, and why.

I agree to a degree that it should be a bit more creative, but at the same time one shouldn't be innovative merely for the sake of it. But one definitely does have to add more to at least flavour and personalise the elements rather than just hoist them out of other genres and games in a simple "copy & paste" manner. At least you acknowledge that Mass Effect has been guilty on both sides; too many condemn ME1 for being "too traditional" RPG-wise for the sake of it when it didn't fit the hybrid nature, but seem to ignore that ME2 fell back on elements just as "too traditional" from the shooter camp (e.g. an "ammo" system, regenerating health, etc.).

These things allow you to change your weapon when you are not in combat? I actually am asking this in a serious manner, because I don't remember.

Not sure what you are referring to. If you meant the mods, then yes.

More meaningful? Yes.
They have pros and cons, and they play completely differently. Refer to a few pages ago.
All of ME1's weapons can be sorted as to what is more superior to one another, based on which ATK stat's is higher.

There were actually three stats involved, not just the one. The weapons in 90% of cases being better across the board wasn't a fault of the system itself; it was a fault of the execution and balancing of the weapons.

Also, to want "inventory" back for the sake of inventory? That's elitist.

I didn't say that. Though I'm also sick of that term.

You liked the feature of changing your weapons? Good. That however wouldn't work in ME2, since the weapons have, as I said, pros and cons. They behave differently on different ranges. The next thing that you can have, therefore, is what ME2 did.

What I missed was the ability to modify my weapon and the stats on them. Thankfully both seem to be coming back in ME3.

And as it allows essentially the same thing, it is classified as an inventory based on the definition we have been given by dictionaries.

By that definition any game with any object has an inventory. It's the same logic behind those who claim any game that allows you to roleplay a character is an RPG. Again, by that definition, shooters like Doom, Quake, Unreal Tournament, etc. have inventories. Having inventory does not mean having an inventory system.

Modifié par Terror_K, 14 juillet 2011 - 01:47 .

[Phaedon]

hhh89 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...



As for BioWare naming ME2 an RPG while others disagree? Pokemon is also an RPG. So what? BioWare has explained what is important for them in RPGs.

Pokèmon is a JRPG by any means. It's basically the same for years. Though I don't play it since Silver, I never read in any forum that someone said that it's not a JRPG.
About the ME1-ME2 inventory and weapons, I found both of them imperfect, but I'm fine with both of them, and never had a problem with both of them. In ME3 we'll have mods (which change both stats and appareance) and probably more weapons. If we'll have at least 6-7 weapons for every type, I'll be happy.

Final Fantasy is also a JRPG and works nothing like Pokemon. You can also compare Diablo to ME1, then, since ME1 was a proper WRPG.

[Sarevok Synder]

didymos1120 wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

No, I gave you the very first definition of "inventory" that came up on Google, you ****ing twerp.

There is more than one type of inventory. Ad hominems... *YAWN*

"Ad hominem" does not mean "someone called me a name".  Now, if SWM had said "You're a ****ing twerp, therefore you are wrong", that would be an ad hominem.  As it stands, you were simply insulted.  Also, by saying "more than one type" I hope you realize that you've just tacitly conceded that what we have in ME2 is in fact one type of inventory

Sure it could be "considered" a type, but it's a copout. I certainly don't consider it one. 

He said "you" meaning in his "mind" I am one. Thus a personal attack. 

[Sarevok Synder]

Phaedon wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...
And having a Deus Ex style inventory prevents this how? 

The vast majority of DE weapons are not comparable to any other weapons. You don't have 3 assault rifles to choose from, for example. I said that "that defeats the point of weapon types" for a reason.

It doesn't have to be exactly like Deus Ex. Just have a space limit. Problem solved.

[Someone With Mass]

As for the mods, what's so harmful about changing them at a bench? I don't think they'll make the player want to change them five times in the middle of a battle.

[Phaedon]

[quote]Terror_K wrote...
Or it can actually be creative and do new stuff without copy/pasting from generic RPGs and TPSs.[/quote]

Actually, perhaps "copy" is not the best term. "Imitate" and "learn from" would be better. If Mass Effect wants to do proper TPS combat, then it should at least do it properly, instead of just giving us the bare-bones elements and little else, and look to what works and doesn't, and why.

I agree to a degree that it should be a bit more creative, but at the same time one shouldn't be innovative merely for the sake of it. But one definitely does have to add more to at least flavour and personalise the elements rather than just hoist them out of other genres and games in a simple "copy & paste" manner. At least you acknowledge that Mass Effect has been guilty on both sides; too many condemn ME1 for being "too traditional" RPG-wise for the sake of it when it didn't fit the hybrid nature, but seem to ignore that ME2 fell back on elements just as "too traditional" from the shooter camp (e.g. an "ammo" system, regenerating health, etc.).[/quote]
Seeing what worked and what didn't doesn't have to with imitating features, it's purely a matter of game design.

ME1 is condemned for being a traditional RPG? As far as I remember, ME1 is condemned for being underwhelming to both RPG and Shooter purists.

[quote]Not sure what you are referring to. If you meant the mods, then yes.[/quote]
I meant the games that you were referring to.

[quote]There were actually three stats involved, not just the one. The weapons in 90% of cases being better across the board wasn't a fault of the system itself; it was a fault of the execution and balancing of the weapons.[/quote]
In 99% of the cases in the ME weapons, a weapon that has a greater ATK stat also has greater stats in general. Therefore, since the pattern is only "up" or "down", choice is not complex at all.

[quote]What I missed was the ability to modify my weapon and the stats on them. Thankfully both seem to be coming back in ME3.[/quote]
Correction: Idividually modify


And I agree. ME2 was by no means a flawless game.

[quote]By that definition any game with any object has an inventory. It's the same logic behind those who claim any game that allows you to roleplay a character is an RPG. Again, by that definition, shooters like Doom, Quake, Unreal Tournament, etc. have inventories. Having inventory does not mean having an inventory system.

[/quote]
Actually, that's not what I meant. A list with in-game items that can be equipped is translated, conventionally as an inventory. Whether an inventory exists or not, doesn't really matter.

I am sure that a better system will be found in the future, where no lists of items exist, and yet you get to pick the weapon that applies to your build the best.

[The Elder King]

Phaedon wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Phaedon wrote...



As for BioWare naming ME2 an RPG while others disagree? Pokemon is also an RPG. So what? BioWare has explained what is important for them in RPGs.

Pokèmon is a JRPG by any means. It's basically the same for years. Though I don't play it since Silver, I never read in any forum that someone said that it's not a JRPG.
About the ME1-ME2 inventory and weapons, I found both of them imperfect, but I'm fine with both of them, and never had a problem with both of them. In ME3 we'll have mods (which change both stats and appareance) and probably more weapons. If we'll have at least 6-7 weapons for every type, I'll be happy.

Final Fantasy is also a JRPG and works nothing like Pokemon. You can also compare Diablo to ME1, then, since ME1 was a proper WRPG.

I probably misunderstood your first post. I thought you wanted to say that Pokèmon, like ME2, has problems in the definition of its genre (at least between the community of players). Sorry
I agree with your post.For me there isn't a universal definition of RPG. All the titles you said are RPGs (though Diablo, ME1 and ME2 are in the Action-RPG category).

[Phaedon]

Sarevok Synder wrote...
It doesn't have to be exactly like Deus Ex. Just have a space limit. Problem solved.

The amount of weapons wasn't what broke the inventory in ME1, it was the fact that choice was restricted to "worse weapon A" and "better weapon B".

You could remove the I-X versions and you would have fixed balance and wouldn't require space limit either.  You would still however, have weapons that play the same and are either better or worse.

[Mazder]

I personally think there is one problem with the loot in Mass Effect 1.
There was too much to make use of.
And I mean proper use.

Half of the stuff was junk, and when you upgraded all you found was lower tier stuff once you had gotten all the best items.
With inventory you have to make them not only effective but also fun.
In ME3 I was excited about gun mods, because not I can make a gun which is totally mine, not like in ME1 where you cobble the stuff together from all the stuff you have found, and now from what we have seen so far you see the changes you have made to the weapon.

I am iffy on armour modding as ME hasn't really done it right yet IMO.
They cam closer to it in ME2 but there was still not enough.
I want to make my armour in all aspects, a huge database of different sections would be nice so we can pick and choose.

Now I myself don't care too much for stats in games, I can like them but in ME1 I found myself just putting on the ones with the highest number, and the same with ME2. If ME3 wishes to make it so the stats are used, make it fun, make it so the numbers actually matter with what we're doing and show it's effects.
NOT just saying "Oh this gun is better against geth because...." show why it's effective against geth and not a person, show us the reason behind the numbers, because any person can say one round is better than another just looking at a list of numbers, but I myself don't want to do that as it is boring.

[didymos1120]

Sarevok Synder wrote...


Sure it could be "considered" a type, but it's a copout. I certainly don't consider it one.

That sounds more like a copout to me.  You're just playing definitional games.  You're not actually giving any good reason for why it should be excluded other than "I said so."

He said "you" meaning in his "mind" I am one. Thus a personal attack.

Well, obviously he thinks you are.  So what? Still not an ad hominem.  The personal attack has to be presented as a reason to disregard a claim.  SWM didn't do that.

[Sarevok Synder]

Someone With Mass wrote...

As for the mods, what's so harmful about changing them at a bench? I don't think they'll make the player want to change them five times in the middle of a battle.

If there is no need to change mods to suit a mission, then there is no need for mods at all. Reloading back at the bence is just stupid.

[Sarevok Synder]

didymos1120 wrote...

That sounds more like a copout to me.  You're just playing definitional games.  You're not actually giving any good reason for why it should be excluded other than "I said so."

Well, obviously he thinks you are.  So what? Still not an ad hominem.  The personal attack has to be presented as a reason to disregard a claim.  SWM didn't do that.

Fine it's an Abusive ad hominem. Happy?

It should be a functional inventory, mission functional.

[Sarevok Synder]

Phaedon wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...
It doesn't have to be exactly like Deus Ex. Just have a space limit. Problem solved.

The amount of weapons wasn't what broke the inventory in ME1, it was the fact that choice was restricted to "worse weapon A" and "better weapon B".

You could remove the I-X versions and you would have fixed balance and wouldn't require space limit either.  You would still however, have weapons that play the same and are either better or worse.

So what? If they look slightly different and play the same; it will at least create the illusion of choice.

[Someone With Mass]

Also, I am fully capable of understanding inventory systems. You don't have to call me a kid just because you think there's some complexity involved with the systems, and you think I can't comprehend it. Because there's really nothing challenging nor stimulating about it. It's an inventory. You store items in it. That's it. It's like calling a bunch of barrels a marvel of science.

[Mazder]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Also, I am fully capable of understanding inventory systems. You don't have to call me a kid just because you think there's some complexity involved with the systems, and you think I can't comprehend it. Because there's really nothing challenging nor stimulating about it. It's an inventory. You store items in it. That's it. It's like calling a bunch of barrels a marvel of science.

Indeed, I agree.
If you can some way over complicate something which is essentially a bag/box/barrell or whatever then you're over thinking an inventory.
You carry your weapons and items in it and open it to coose another one....that's it.

[littlezack]

 Just throwing this back in - would you consider Jade Empire to be an RPG?

[Sarevok Synder]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Also, I am fully capable of understanding inventory systems. You don't have to call me a kid just because you think there's some complexity involved with the systems, and you think I can't comprehend it. Because there's really nothing challenging nor stimulating about it. It's an inventory. You store items in it. That's it. It's like calling a bunch of barrels a marvel of science.

I called you kid because of the childish name you called me. It has nothing to do with the "perceived" complexity of an inventory system.

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 14 juillet 2011 - 02:08 .

[Someone With Mass]

Sarevok Synder wrote...
If there is no need to change mods to suit a mission, then there is no need for mods at all. Reloading back at the bence is just stupid.

Yeah, that's more a role for the weapon itself, not the mods. I think it's pretty easy to tell if I want full auto, semi auto, burst fire, a higher rate of fire, more accuracy, more ammo capacity, more stability or more damgae.

[didymos1120]

Sarevok Synder wrote...
Fine it's an Abusive ad hominem. Happy?

No, but at this point, I'm just gonna give up on trying to explain the distinction, so...

[Mazder]

The one thing I found weird in ME1 was the way mods could just be dragged and dropped into the guns at a whim.
Doesn't seem right to me.

I know the omnitool is "supposed" to be doing the work for it but at an instant...no, sorry that doesn't work for me.
The new tables system to implement the mods when in mission is a much better system and more believable for me. Sure it's not perfect, but it's better than the omnitool magically able to add the mods to your gun in an instant on the fly in any and every environment...

[Sarevok Synder]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...
If there is no need to change mods to suit a mission, then there is no need for mods at all. Reloading back at the bence is just stupid.

Yeah, that's more a role for the weapon itself, not the mods. I think it's pretty easy to tell if I want full auto, semi auto, burst fire, a higher rate of fire, more accuracy, more ammo capacity, more stability or more damgae.

If it's so straight forward, then there is no need for mods at all. Just another nuisance they can cut from the game.

[didymos1120]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

So what? If they look slightly different and play the same; it will at least create the illusion of choice.

Which would in turn give the illusion of having a inventory "system".  Yay?