3223 réponses à ce sujet

[Mazder]

AlanC9 wrote...

Terror_K wrote...
To be honest, I do actually prefer the ME2 method of item replication and the more varied weapons. I just didn't feel there was enough (again, what we got after all the DLC should have been about the amount vanilla ME2 had, IMO), that the system was too linear, that it was boring with the weapons always in the same place and that the lack of modding or any proper customisation was severely lacking. That, and the research/upgrade system was shockingly bad (God, I desperately hope that's gone in ME3!).

What was bad about the research/upgrade system?

Indeed.
The Research/upgrade system was much better than the "Oh look what I stumbled upon randomly" system of ME1.
Mind you a little more gun varyation would have been nice, even if it were just cosmetic.
Also: minigun inspired heavy weapon for ME3. XD

[didymos1120]

Mazder wrote...

The Research/upgrade system was much better than the "Oh look what I stumbled upon randomly" system of ME1.

My favorite was looting a Soviet-era lander on the moon and receiving cutting edge weapon/armor tech.

Modifié par didymos1120, 14 juillet 2011 - 03:33 .

[In Exile]

AlanC9 wrote...
What was bad about the research/upgrade system?

It kept the linear statistical progression of gear in ME1, but it didn't make it about trash loot management. Going back to what you said a while back (and ME1 features being intentionally patronizing to RPG fans) I think what the ME2 team did (and ironically got a lot more ire from self-described RPG fans) is keeping the majority of the system's progression in place but chance the UI. Apparently, though, the RPG UI matters more than quality RPG content.

It's like an argument over combat animations wrecking the combat. Some people value flash over substance, and that's very true of RPGs. 

Modifié par In Exile, 14 juillet 2011 - 03:32 .

[Mazder]

didymos1120 wrote...

My favorite was looting a Soviet-era lander on the moon and receiving cutting edge weapon tech.

Heh, yeah but once you got all the best stuff that thing is useless. 

[Veex]

AlanC9 wrote...

What was bad about the research/upgrade system?

I think the general complaints about the research and upgrade systems are that mineral scanning was... tedious, and that the changes themselves happen discreetly behind the scenes. It is pretty obvious that RPG fans are accustomed to having statistical changes presented to them, and the % increase screens you received momentarily after upgading weren't as in your face as tradition would dictate.

I like the research and upgrade system personally, I just hope to see it be expanded upon and beefed up a bit.

[In Exile]

Terror_K wrote...
That's an exaggeration. Most ME1 bashing I've seen didn't even come about until ME2 came along for one thing. The rest was either baseless or concrit.

That aside, what I actually meant was that ME1 is condemned for adhering too much to common/traditional RPG elements that some find "archaic" and "inappropriate" given the somewhat hybrid nature of it.

Were you on the old bio boards? Plenty of us complained about the Mako, about the recycled worlds, about the incoherent biology and space-fantasy instead of sci-fi, about the plot holes and inconsistencies, and about some of the incoherent conclusions for the Council choice. 

[Mazder]

Veex wrote...

I think the general complaints about the research and upgrade systems are that mineral scanning was... tedious, and that the changes themselves happen discreetly behind the scenes. It is pretty obvious that RPG fans are accustomed to having statistical changes presented to them, and the % increase screens you received momentarily after upgading weren't as in your face as tradition would dictate.

I like the research and upgrade system personally, I just hope to see it be expanded upon and beefed up a bit.

I liked the research system myself even if it was just " Get materials for the next upgrade."

I myself pay little attention to stats in terms of the upgrades, all I do is get the materials for the next one, I don't even look. 

And yeah mineral scanning all the time was tedious, that's why I didn't do it in ME1.
In ME3 hopefully some sort of material trading is opened up...or straight up buying material/mining companies.

[tonnactus]

AlanC9 wrote...

Terror_K wrote...
To be honest, I do actually prefer the ME2 method of item replication and the more varied weapons. I just didn't feel there was enough (again, what we got after all the DLC should have been about the amount vanilla ME2 had, IMO), that the system was too linear, that it was boring with the weapons always in the same place and that the lack of modding or any proper customisation was severely lacking. That, and the research/upgrade system was shockingly bad (God, I desperately hope that's gone in ME3!).

What was bad about the research/upgrade system?

Why someone need better armor penetration to make better headshots with a sniper rifle...
No choice how to upgrade weapons,just one linear path that didnt make sense and a awfull mingame to collect resources.

[Il Divo]

tonnactus wrote...

Why someone need better armor penetration to make better headshots with a sniper rifle...
No choice how to upgrade weapons,just one linear path that didnt make sense and a awfull mingame to collect resources.

Heaven forbid that we have gameplay elements that don't make sense, like requiring points in pistol damage to unlock shotguns...

[Mazder]

Il Divo wrote...

Heaven forbid that we have gameplay elements that don't make sense, like requiring points in pistol damage to unlock shotguns...

You'd rather know how to handle a pistol before you pick up a shotgun, right? 

[didymos1120]

tonnactus wrote...

Why someone need better armor penetration to make better headshots with a sniper rifle...

Um, that's not how the unlocks work for sniper rifles.  AP requires 2 damage upgrades.  Headshot bonus requires 3. Actually, that's how the unlocks work for all the weapon types.  Every type has 2 upgrades that aren't just across-the-board damage boosts  (the exception of course being Heavy Weapons, for which all the upgrades boost capacity, and you instead gain the ability to build new heavy weapons after the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd upgrades). And in fact, the non-weapon upgrades for Shepard follow the same pattern as well.  Not that there's any rationale for why it works that way either, but, you know, welcome to video games.

Modifié par didymos1120, 14 juillet 2011 - 04:54 .

[tonnactus]

Il Divo wrote...


Heaven forbid that we have gameplay elements that don't make sense, like requiring points in pistol damage to unlock shotguns...

While this is stupid(and also still part of the Mass Effect 2 talent system too),what this have to do with weapon upgrades?
The first game didnt restrict my choices regarding this.
This is a step back to the prequel that no one with a brain could deny.

Modifié par tonnactus, 14 juillet 2011 - 05:09 .

[didymos1120]

tonnactus wrote...

The first game didnt restrict my choices regarding this.

Yes it did: via loot scaling.  Lower tier mods are quite different from the upper tier mods. Also, many of them have no real lower tier equivalents.  And that makes no damn sense either.  How does a crate know what level I am anyway?

Oh, and there was another way the gear scaling restricted you as well: early-game weapons and armor only had a single mod slot.

Modifié par didymos1120, 14 juillet 2011 - 05:35 .

[Bnol]

AlanC9 wrote...

Terror_K wrote...
To be honest, I do actually prefer the ME2 method of item replication and the more varied weapons. I just didn't feel there was enough (again, what we got after all the DLC should have been about the amount vanilla ME2 had, IMO), that the system was too linear, that it was boring with the weapons always in the same place and that the lack of modding or any proper customisation was severely lacking. That, and the research/upgrade system was shockingly bad (God, I desperately hope that's gone in ME3!).

What was bad about the research/upgrade system?

What was bad about it was that it was linear and did not give any choice in terms of what you were going to research.  The only choice that you made was what upgrades at the stores you bought.  That, coupled with the fact it was tied to mining made it tedious.    Obviously the mod system will help in the customization department.

However, I think it was far superior to the ME1 version.  The ME1 inventory cannot work with the way they designed weapons and how the various weapon types worked.  First, you have the issue of how ammo works,  with different weapons within a weapon type getting a different amount of shots.  Since the thermal clip system doesn't work like an actual clip system  you have a problem with potentially losing or gaining rounds as you switch weapons, especially considering a switch between the revenant (480) and mattock (64).  You also have the balance problem of having the exact weapon for the situation.  Long range armored target, let me pull out the Mantis/Widow, long range shielded target: Viper/Incisor.  The Soldier is the only class that comes close to having the perfect weapon for the job, but even then there can be some non-ideal situations, and the soldier's whole gameplay is tied around weapon choice and usage. 

In ME2 you do have an inventory, it is just contained on the Normandy.  Sure you have weapon lockers in the mission, but generally those weapon lockers occurred when you aquired a new weapon.  This was to allow you to acquire the weapon without being stuck with the weapon for the rest of the mission.  Sure they could have put in an option pop-up to equip the item now or scan the item for later use, but then again you could just as easily put a weapon locker, which you have already created and the player has already learned about, next to the weapon for the same functionality.

[tonnactus]

didymos1120 wrote...


Yes it did: via loot scaling.  Lower tier mods are quite different from the upper tier mods.

Other then a smaller percentage regarding additional damage and accuracy for example,not really.

Oh, and there was another way the gear scaling restricted you as well: early-game weapons and armor only had a single mod slot.

But i could put in this slot the upgrades i want...
Not the one the game choose for me.

[Someone With Mass]

I just hope they'll improve the Paragon/Renegade system. I'm quite happy with everything else I've seen.

[Praetor Knight]

tonnactus wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...


Yes it did: via loot scaling.  Lower tier mods are quite different from the upper tier mods.

Other then a smaller percentage regarding additional damage and accuracy for example,not really

Really?

Weapon Upgrades

Ammo Upgrades

Edit: They seem to get more complex with the upper tiers.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 14 juillet 2011 - 05:58 .

[Bnol]

tonnactus wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Heaven forbid that we have gameplay elements that don't make sense, like requiring points in pistol damage to unlock shotguns...

While this is stupid(and also still part of the Mass Effect 2 talent system too),what this have to do with weapon upgrades?
The first game didnt restrict my choices regarding this.
This is a step back to the prequel that no one with a brain could deny.

It was an analogy.  There will be gameplay aspects that don't make sense logically, but are done for balance purposes.  Sure the first game didn't restrict your choices, but it still didn't give you meaningful choices either. 

[luzburg]

im happy with the shooter and rpg feauters. i hope they made a great story cause thats the most improtant in a me game

[Sierra Crysis]

Veex wrote...
I think the general complaints about the research and upgrade systems are that mineral scanning was... tedious, and that the changes themselves happen discreetly behind the scenes. It is pretty obvious that RPG fans are accustomed to having statistical changes presented to them, and the % increase screens you received momentarily after upgading weren't as in your face as tradition would dictate.

I like the research and upgrade system personally, I just hope to see it be expanded upon and beefed up a bit.

What I didn't like about the weapon upgrade/researching of ME2 was that you just couldn't tell anything was happening, I don't mean that I want to see numbers necessarily but with the way the game scaled. As you leveled the weapons it seemed to me as if I was doing all the same damage practically.

The only time I noticed the upgrades were when I chose to do a new game + and noticed everything was insanely hard to kill in comparison to the time before.

[tonnactus]

Praetor Shepard wrote...


Edit: They seem to get more complex with the upper tiers.

Some effects are just combined,like with combat optics(the additional accuracy)
But thats it.

[Someone With Mass]

Sierra Crysis wrote...

What I didn't like about the weapon upgrade/researching of ME2 was that you just couldn't tell anything was happening, I don't mean that I want to see numbers necessarily but with the way the game scaled. As you leveled the weapons it seemed to me as if I was doing all the same damage practically.

The only time I noticed the upgrades were when I chose to do a new game + and noticed everything was insanely hard to kill in comparison to the time before.

Yeah, I'd like if they had a chart or something that showed the stats of the weapons.

[tonnactus]

Bnol wrote...
 Sure the first game didn't restrict your choices, but it still didn't give you meaningful choices either. 

So what is meaningfull? Does it matter that the widow allow one shoot kills when regarding damage per second the viper isnt really far behind?
Using two scram rails in a assault rifles or two advanced heat dampers for firing without overheating is as meaningfull as that.

[Veex]

Sierra Crysis wrote...

What I didn't like about the weapon upgrade/researching of ME2 was that you just couldn't tell anything was happening, I don't mean that I want to see numbers necessarily but with the way the game scaled. As you leveled the weapons it seemed to me as if I was doing all the same damage practically.

The only time I noticed the upgrades were when I chose to do a new game + and noticed everything was insanely hard to kill in comparison to the time before.

Which is a good point, it is hard to feel the difference. You'd have to purposefully gimp a weapon type to test it and actually get a feel for the damage differences.

With that point in mind even in a more to-the-roots RPG like Dragon Age: Origins with level scaling you have the same issues. Hurlocks at level one aren't much different than those at level twelve (discounting the one shot XP fest that is the final battle) until you've severely outleveled and outgeared everything. This is one of the reasons I enjoy Mass Effect 2, the game maintains a relatively even feeling of difficulty in it's entirety and for me that makes sense. I find Insanity to be sufficiently difficult and it doesn't become facerolling easy at top levels like other games become.

[Il Divo]

tonnactus wrote...

While this is stupid(and also still part of the Mass Effect 2 talent system too),what this have to do with weapon upgrades?
The first game didnt restrict my choices regarding this.

Pretty much what Bnol said. Arguing that something "doesn't make sense" rarely works in relation to gameplay. There's a million different problems to consider there which is not just related to Mass Effect. Shepard being able to carry around 50 assault rifles doesn't make sense, but that's not why I hate the inventory system.

There aren't many gameplay systems which "make sense". That's why we have gameplay-lore segregation.

This is a step back to the prequel that no one with a brain could deny.

Taken in isolation, you might be right. Unfortunately, Mass Effect's inventory as a whole was so terrible that I consider its complete removal to be a positive. So weapon mod choice didn't really do it for me.