3223 réponses à ce sujet

[Phaedon]

tonnactus wrote...
What are examples where zooming isnt recommended?

Low health, not in cover, when enemies are heading towards you, while retreating, etc.

But this fight has a time limit....
So the example is valid enough.

What exactly does that change?

Nobody claimed that heavy pistols didn't deliver damage, not as much as other weapons however, and definitely not optimal to a more mobile enemy due to RoF, and lower damage.

It still falls under my example, you are just saying that it is possible to do that in a set time limit.

Just compare it to well, a real situation. 
Ever wondered why cops bring out shotguns when they want to cause damage? It's not that semi-automatics pistols don't do the job, but it's not exactly very good to have to shoot at something that is threatening you, many, many times. 

[Phaedon]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...
A weapons pack wouldn't take long to produce get real. Again, if I'm such an idiot, why do you keep crawling back to me?

Design Gameplay Concept/Concept Art
Models
Textures
Statistics
Sound
Coding
QA and balance
Ensuring it causes no clipping during animations

That requires several professionals, and it would definitely take some time, unless that's the only project they are working on.

Well you see, pre-built engines like Unreal 3 make that quite easy. Download the unreal development kit and see for yourself.

Designing Gameplay Concept, concept art, textures, sound, and QA have nothing to do with the engine. They still take some standard time to be done.

Models are connected to the engine in a way that doesn't matter to the argument, you still need to create the models,

Statistics and coding, maybe they are relatively easy. Still, creating different styles of firing, and particle effects can't be that easy.

Balance? Again, nothing to do with the engine.

And it still requires several professionals, and some time to do a single weapon, let alone an entire weapon pack.

[Phaedon]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

I wanted an improvment from ME1, I didn't say it was the be all and end all.
 
Oh I agree, if don't like what I'm seeing come near release time, I won't be buying. 

So, can we draw a line under this? 

And you got one, did not all of these 4 assault rifles you got instead play, look and sound differently? How are they not an improvement?

[tonnactus]

Phaedon wrote...

Low health, not in cover, when enemies are heading towards you, while retreating, etc.

When low on health,the horrific red veins appear,make it clear enough to stay some time in over.If enemies heading toward me they are actually dead by sniper shots long before they reach me anyway.Its not that krogans and vanguards actually move fast in this game...

But this fight has a time limit....
So the example is valid enough.

What exactly does that change?

Ever wondered why cops bring out shotguns when they want to cause damage?

Yes.In close quarters where sometimes isnt enough time to place a good shot so the spread of a shotgun helps there.Otherwise,even a pistol kills in real life with one shot to the head...

[tonnactus]

Phaedon wrote...

Statistics and coding, maybe they are relatively easy. Still, creating different styles of firing, and particle effects can't be that easy.

http://www.fallout3n...ile.php?id=4448

This is what some modders include in Fallout 3.Compare this with the "weapon packs" of Mass Effect 2.

[Bnol]

[quote]tonnactus wrote...

[quote]Bnol wrote...


Other than the damage number all ARs performed the same in ME1.  So the difference in weapons was not meaningful, which meant that having a ton of different weapon names with level from I-X didn't add to any choice.   Especially as soon as you get Spectre gear, then every other weapon is trash. 
[/quote]

That is wrong.Rosenkov had weapons that were better then spectre VIII weapons. [/quote]

Yes, but the window in which those weapons were superior before you have access to Spectre X weapons was really small.  With random loot you could potentially miss that window altogether.  Again, back to the point of choices are so few and far between the crap you have to deal with. 


[quote]
With the modifications the choice became very simple as you progressed, as you didn't need 2 heatsinks on a weapon, because even with just one you could fire continuously without worring about heat and once you maxed your weapon skill the accuracy mods didn't matter. 


[/quote]

The accuracy of a weapon was far more important then those percentages a player get from weapon.Then,if i used a secondary weapon when the main one was sabotaged,accuracy mods helped for sure,also teammembers like liara and kaidan really got decent pistol users with that.

[/quote]

Yes, the accuracy of the base weapon was the most important.  But the base accuracy differences between weapons usually has a positive correlation with the damage stat of those weapons, such that you didn't choose damage versus accuracy when choosing a weapon for the most part.  Avenger, Lancer, Banshee line of ARs all had crap accuracy, but they also had crap damage.  The only time when there was a choice between accuracy and damage was between Breaker and Kovalyov line, and even then the difference was so small to be unnoticable, and again those didn't matter except for a small period where they were superior to Spectre VII but before Sprectre X.

[Phaedon]

tonnactus wrote...
When low on health,the horrific red veins appear,make it clear enough to stay some time in over.

That's not always possible.

If enemies heading toward me they are actually dead by sniper shots long before they reach me anyway.Its not that krogans and vanguards actually move fast in this game...

Husks.

And to generally not have been overwhelmed by enemies I find it unbelievable.

Yes.In close quarters where sometimes isnt enough time to place a good shot so the spread of a shotgun helps there.Otherwise,even a pistol kills in real life with one shot to the head...

Exactly, you don't exactly have the time to aim at the head. Sometimes it's not sufficient.

Anyway, even if that doesn't illustrate my point correctly...

Remember what I said about the hero doing 1 dps to a creature that has 100 hp, and running around in the meantime? How long would it take to take down the creature? 200 seconds? 250? 300?

Do you see my point now? This applies to all games with weapons, and guess what, even ME1.

I can hit people from 50 meters away with a shotgun, if I try enough. Does that make sniper rifles obsolete?

[Bnol]

tonnactus wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
Statistics and coding, maybe they are relatively easy. Still, creating different styles of firing, and particle effects can't be that easy.

http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=4448
This is what some modders include in Fallout 3.Compare this with the "weapon packs" of Mass Effect 2.

Yes, but those modders are spending time and effort to create this.  They don't just magically **** out these things.  It takes time and effort, which is what you pay for in terms of a video game.  If you don't want to pay for the time and effort of a weapon pack then don't do it.

[Phaedon]

tonnactus wrote...
This is what some modders include in Fallout 3.Compare this with the "weapon packs" of Mass Effect 2.

I have used that mod once. Still doesn't really different to me.

Btw, are the textures/models original?

Modifié par Phaedon, 14 juillet 2011 - 07:52 .

[AlanC9]

Bnol wrote...
I would have liked a choice as to what order you researched the special upgrades (e.g. head shot damage).  Because for an assault rifle if I am using the Revenant, the extra penetration is not as important than the accuracy, but I can't rearch that as soon, but for the Vindicator the accuracy was unneccessary.

Oh, right. Forgot about the special upgrades. But if they were all available immediately, wouldn't you just research all the upgrades at once? Or is that OK? I guess the one you don't pick could be locked out until you get more upgrades, but that's just arbitrary.

  I don't see a point, outside of tedium to have the research aspect if all it will do is just increase damage by x%, if all it is doing is that then the guns should just increase in damage as you level/as soon as you scan and avoid the whole mining mini-game.

Yep, there's no point. Progression is a Red Queen's race. Always has been.

Buying the tech was a way to limit the aquisition of all of the advances and have you choose the ones that were most important to you.  It was the only place where you had a choice to prioritize your advancement in terms of weapons.  I am not going to argue gameplay versus story, because we could be here forever with both games.

Agreed, let's not. I'm just saying that shops are a pure loss for me, since I'm uninterested in that aspect of gameplay and it makes the story worse.

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 juillet 2011 - 07:52 .

[tonnactus]

Phaedon wrote...

Husks.

And to generally not have been overwhelmed by enemies I find it unbelievable.

Only in the "suicide" mission in the bubble,with the scion and the husks.Otherwise,this not even happens on insanity in any other place.

[Sarevok Synder]

Phaedon wrote...

Designing Gameplay Concept, concept art, textures, sound, and QA have nothing to do with the engine. They still take some standard time to be done.

Models are connected to the engine in a way that doesn't matter to the argument, you still need to create the models,

Statistics and coding, maybe they are relatively easy. Still, creating different styles of firing, and particle effects can't be that easy.

Balance? Again, nothing to do with the engine.

And it still requires several professionals, and some time to do a single weapon, let alone an entire weapon pack.

You just love making long winded statements. "Brevity is the soul of wit": William Shakespeare.
Seven professionals to make a single weapon. FACT!

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 14 juillet 2011 - 08:31 .

[Sarevok Synder]

Phaedon wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

I wanted an improvment from ME1, I didn't say it was the be all and end all.
 
Oh I agree, if don't like what I'm seeing come near release time, I won't be buying. 

So, can we draw a line under this? 

And you got one, did not all of these 4 assault rifles you got instead play, look and sound differently? How are they not an improvement?

I want a lot more than four.

[Bnol]

AlanC9 wrote...

Bnol wrote...
I would have liked a choice as to what order you researched the special upgrades (e.g. head shot damage).  Because for an assault rifle if I am using the Revenant, the extra penetration is not as important than the accuracy, but I can't rearch that as soon, but for the Vindicator the accuracy was unneccessary.

Oh, right. Forgot about the special upgrades. But if they were all available immediately, wouldn't you just research all the upgrades at once? Or is that OK? I guess the one you don't pick could be locked out until you get more upgrades, but that's just arbitrary.

They could have done them the exact same in terms of you unlock them after X amount of generic upgrades, but then just given you the choice which one to take initially.  Obviously, it would be preferable if the upgrades were more balanced.  Hopefully they achieve the real give and take balance for the weapon modifications in ME3.

  I don't see a point, outside of tedium to have the research aspect if all it will do is just increase damage by x%, if all it is doing is that then the guns should just increase in damage as you level/as soon as you scan and avoid the whole mining mini-game.

Yep, there's no point. Progression is a Red Queen's race. Always has been.

Well, the special upgrades actually give progression in terms of varied gameplay.  Extra shotgun rounds really allow a player to focus on the CQC aspect of the game, while headshot damage really promote the OS/OK playstyle.  There is a progression in terms of how effective you can become at your preferred playstyle.  It is again why I would like the choice earlier on, so that you can support your preferred playstyle with the upgrades, instead of the game forcing you to wait.

Buying the tech was a way to limit the aquisition of all of the advances and have you choose the ones that were most important to you.  It was the only place where you had a choice to prioritize your advancement in terms of weapons.  I am not going to argue gameplay versus story, because we could be here forever with both games.

Agreed, let's not. I'm just saying that shops are a pure loss for me, since I'm uninterested in that aspect of gameplay and it makes the story worse.

Are you uninterested in the going to the hub world to shop aspect, or the credit limitation on what you can buy to upgrade aspect?  For me I could ditch stores altogether, I mean the Alliance Requisition officer was a great idea that they failed with in having you go get all those licenses, instead of just having him get licenses automatically from the places you have been, and actually having a decent stock on hand.  But I like the limitation aspect so that you must pick and choose where to focus your limited resources.

Modifié par Bnol, 14 juillet 2011 - 08:31 .

[Phaedon]

Sarevok Synder wrote...
You just love making long winded statements. "Brevity is the soul of wit": William Shakespeare.
Seven professionals to make a sigle weapon. FACT!

It's not? Prove me wrong.

Who comes up with the idea of how the weapon should work, and balances it afterwards? Not a gameplay designer?
Who creates concepts of the weapon? Not a concept artist?
Who creates the textures? Not a texture artist?
Who creates the models? Not a model artist?
Who does the testing? Not a QA team?
Who does the particle effects, not a visual effect artist?
Who does the statistics and implements the weapon in-game? Not a programmer?
Who creates the sound for it? Not a sound effect designer?

Yes, it is a FACT.

Stop being immature and accept it.

Sarevok Synder wrote...
I want a lot more than four. 

And I want to become World Ruler. BioWare gave you that chance by releasing weapon pacls. If you don't want to buy them, then stop complaining.

ME2 did have more variety in weapons than ME1. And ME3 will have even more.

Maybe you should open up your mind and consider that hey, maybe ME2 did a better job at that department, after all.

Modifié par Phaedon, 14 juillet 2011 - 08:32 .

[Sarevok Synder]

Phaedon wrote...

Snip

*Yawn* More long winded drivel. Take a look at the Cinematic mod 10 for Half Life 2. It was made by just one man. Then come back and tell me it takes seven "professionals" to make just one weapon.

ME1 also had different models and textures for many rifles, ME2 certainly wasn't an  improvement.

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 14 juillet 2011 - 08:36 .

[Phaedon]

Sarevok Synder wrote...
*Yawn* More long winded drivel. Take a look at the Cinematic mod 10 for Half Life 2. It was made by just one man. Then come back and tell me it takes seven "professionals" to make just one weapon.

I am sorry to break this to you, but that's how game development works. With a process.

It passes from the hands of one artist to another, and another, until it is done.

Every game designer have the ability to do concept art, write stories, do programming, etc. Want to know why that doesn't happen in relatively big companies? 

Because everyone works on deadlines, a budget and have specific specializations. You can't exactly occupy an developer for 2 whole weeks over a single weapon.

ME1 also had different models and textures for many rifles,

ME2 certainly wasn't an  improvement.

whatyouareseriousletmelaughevenharder.gif

2 models per weapon type at best, specific recolours.

Modifié par Phaedon, 14 juillet 2011 - 08:43 .

[Someone With Mass]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

ME1 also had different models and textures for many rifles, ME2 certainly wasn't an  improvement.

Okay, let's take a look.

Tsunami AR:

Grogon AR:

Geth Pulse Rifle:

Lancer AR:

Thunder AR:


Noticing a theme there?

[Sarevok Synder]

Phaedon wrote...

Snip

Sorry to break this to you, these "professionals" of yours must be useless if it takes seven of them to produce one weapon, considering one man completely overhauled a game on his own. Either that or you're full of it. I'm inclined to go with the latter option.

So ME 2 had one more. WOW!

Modifié par Sarevok Synder, 14 juillet 2011 - 08:47 .

[CroGamer002]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Snip

*Yawn* More long winded drivel. Take a look at the Cinematic mod 10 for Half Life 2. It was made by just one man. Then come back and tell me it takes seven "professionals" to make just one weapon.

ME1 also had different models and textures for many rifles, ME2 certainly wasn't an  improvement.

Didn't it took years for him to make that mod?

[Someone With Mass]

It's the same when it comes to shotguns.

Two models, and a lot of reskins.

[Sarevok Synder]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Snip

And? ME2 had one or two models more, but a lot less in actual game play differences. Massive improvement!

[AlanC9]

Bnol wrote...
They could have done them the exact same in terms of you unlock them after X amount of generic upgrades, but then just given you the choice which one to take initially.

Yeah, that's what  I was trying to say. It just strikes me as being silly that you can research a tech until the moment you research its sister tech, and then you suddenly forget how to research that tech until you get another couple of generics. But this would be better gameplay, yeah.

Well, the special upgrades actually give progression in terms of varied gameplay.  Extra shotgun rounds really allow a player to focus on the CQC aspect of the game, while headshot damage really promote the OS/OK playstyle.  There is a progression in terms of how effective you can become at your preferred playstyle.  It is again why I would like the choice earlier on, so that you can support your preferred playstyle with the upgrades, instead of the game forcing you to wait.

I see. It's the generics that are pointless, not upgrades that make a specific playstyle better.

 
Are you uninterested in the going to the hub world to shop aspect, or the credit limitation on what you can buy to upgrade aspect?  For me I could ditch stores altogether, I mean the Alliance Requisition officer was a great idea that they failed with in having you go get all those licenses, instead of just having him get licenses automatically from the places you have been, and actually having a decent stock on hand.  But I like the limitation aspect so that you must pick and choose where to focus your limited resources.

I'm actively opposed to the credit limitation, not merely uninterested in it. This is the sort of thing I like RPGs despite, not because of.

I'm indifferent to upgrades without tradeoffs; it's just busywork. The problem is that I just can't think of a rational way to implement tradeoffs in ME, given who Shepard is and what his situation is. As bad as the mining mini-game is, at least it's a kind of constraint. But as soon as you realize that Cerberus is known to have other ships....

[Sarevok Synder]

Mesina2 wrote...

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Snip

*Yawn* More long winded drivel. Take a look at the Cinematic mod 10 for Half Life 2. It was made by just one man. Then come back and tell me it takes seven "professionals" to make just one weapon.

ME1 also had different models and textures for many rifles, ME2 certainly wasn't an  improvement.

Didn't it took years for him to make that mod?

No, he made many Mods. Version 10 took him about five months. Don't forget he overhauled three games.

[AlanC9]

Sarevok Synder wrote...

Sorry to break this to you, these "professionals" of yours must be useless if it takes seven of them to produce one weapon, considering one man completely overhauled a game on his own!

Which took him how many hours?

Five months, yeah, but we don't know how much of his time went into it. Presumably not five man-months.

Modifié par AlanC9, 14 juillet 2011 - 08:53 .