97 réponses à ce sujet

[slimgrin]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Couldn't agree more with you Rage. I recently bought ME1 for the second time just so I could play it again. I'm hoping they take the improved combat from ME2 and blend it with the best of ME1.

But but but... blending improved combat with the best elements of ME1 resulted in ME2...

We'll never agree on this topic.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Lumikki wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Not every RPG has to be a dry, stat-driven experience, it can have action too.

For a lot of people, the stats ARE the RPG.  When the focus of a game moves toward story, suddenly there's no game left for them anymore.  It's sad really, but it's what they like.

When focus moves more into playing role in story direction, real roleplaying kicks in. Because stats are just used to customize players character, they are tool for roleplaying. When stats it self becomes gameplay for player, roleplaying is totally lost and metagaming starts. Adjusting numbers is not roleplaying.

That's fair!  However you will find people lamenting that there's no more "Medicine" or division between small arms, rifles, and heavy weapons any more.  For those people, the game is all about putting the little points in the pointless skills.  The results of a great mission lets them move Shotguns from 43 up to 47.  That is not a real choice.  That is not really role playing.

ME2 handles the RPG aspect better.  You've got far fewed options, divided into 4-5 power levels.  A great mission might let you move one of those powers from half to full power.  Your character is customized, you can play the role where it actually counts... the action and the story.  Real choices.

ME3 looks to be adding options from ME1 that were left out of ME2, but the implementation in ME2 will be done =correctly= which is to say, they'll be real choices.  They'll be fun choices.  And they'll matter to how your Shepard plays his role in the story of Mass Effect.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

slimgrin wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Couldn't agree more with you Rage. I recently bought ME1 for the second time just so I could play it again. I'm hoping they take the improved combat from ME2 and blend it with the best of ME1.

But but but... blending improved combat with the best elements of ME1 resulted in ME2...

We'll never agree on this topic.

:lol:   HIGH FIVE!

[crimzontearz]

this from the people who said "oh yeah we got a lot of feedback on the forum saying the mining mini-game is addictive"

[Crimmsonwind]

Savber100 wrote...


This is interesting as while it's not a direct quote per se, it seems that Bioware has finally admitted that DA2's story was extremely flawed. Good to see that the ME team is learning from their DA counterparts.

Man... I don't get why people keep saying this.

I had no problems with DA2's story. It didn't feel like a sequel, yes. It was more like a totally different game in a somewhat-familiar setting. But it was still a very enjoyable game and I actually enjoyed the story quite a bit. There were changes to the lore, for sure. But they weren't totally rewriting history. It's their property and they can change things with some wiggle room, if it means they have plans for it. What WAS flawed was the fact that I pretty much had to keep running through the same network of caves, with the only change being which entrance I came through and what paths were blocked.

The story wasn't flawed to me. The obvious re-use of environments was. The trimming of the classes was different, but I wouldn't necessarily call it a flaw. I wasn't expecting it, but I didn't have too much of an issue with it. 

I found the story quite interesting, in fact. It seems now that we've got the Champion and the Warden working toward something, and I'm very interested to see where that will go.

Modifié par Crimmsonwind, 01 juillet 2011 - 05:02 .

[DragonRageGT]

crimzontearz wrote...

this from the people who said "oh yeah we got a lot of feedback on the forum saying the mining mini-game is addictive"

It is! As much as exploring every possible spot of the map with the Mako is too. Only the Mako is a lot more fun! Meteor Shower FTW! But it requires some sick bags for the crew cuz all the crazy stunt rolls and jumps!

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Crimmsonwind wrote...

Savber100 wrote...


This is interesting as while it's not a direct quote per se, it seems that Bioware has finally admitted that DA2's story was extremely flawed. Good to see that the ME team is learning from their DA counterparts.

Man... I don't get why people keep saying this.

It's the wishful thinking of a Jilted Girlfriend.

Was the story perfect?  Nah.  Was it "extremely flawed?"  Nah.

[Gunderic]

Mr.House wrote...

Gunderic wrote...
Sorry, fan modded armour is not my thing, personally.

Not all of that is fan modded.

Fenris is wearing Fallen armour set, Izzy is wearing Guarian rogue stuff, Aveline is wearing a mix match of champ armour and Kings armour. Carver is a GW and has such as his GW stuff and Seb is wearing champ rogue stuff. The fact is I can put non fan stuff on Merrill and Anders if I wanted.

People complain about stuff lost in DA2, the ponit is it's not hard to fix and since this was complained a lot hopefuly DA3 will have more freedom. The same can not be said for ME2 and most likely ME3 will follow with catsuits and unrealistic clothing for a Sci Fi series.

If it's not hard to fix, then was it actually fixed? I haven't heard much about this; pretty sure the community would be grateful for a mod that lets you switch companion armour out.

[gunswordfist]

I am glad they realized that actually modifying guns functionality instead of relying on useless numbers was the way to go

[whitey4444]

Houston says that rather than remove the customization feature entirely, BioWare will make it more intuitive.

That is exactly what Bioware should have done in the first place but oh well. I love that Bioware listens but they need to work on IMPROVING over REMOVING features that don't quite work.

Your arm hurts, so you go to the doctor
Me: "My arm hurts. It takes 20 minutes for me to do anything"
Doctor "OK, we'll amputate it"

Come back 2 years later
Doctor "Oh wait, although the arm was painful it still was a vital part of what made your body work. We'll give you a smaller synthetic arm with less functionality. Maybe half the length, two fingers instead of 5, limit your elbow to small movements. It's not what it was, but you'll be able to do some things. However we've implanted your shoulder with a fast swinging action that will make you fight better!"
Me "Thanks... still better than nothing. But I don't understand why you removed the arm in the first place instead of just making it work more efficiently..."
Nurse "Stupid RPG player"

[Iakus]

whitey4444 wrote...
Your arm hurts, so you go to the doctor
Me: "My arm hurts. It takes 20 minutes for me to do anything"
Doctor "OK, we'll amputate it"

Come back 2 years later
Doctor "Oh wait, although the arm was painful it still was a vital part of what made your body work. We'll give you a smaller synthetic arm with less functionality. Maybe half the length, two fingers instead of 5, limit your elbow to small movements. It's not what it was, but you'll be able to do some things. However we've implanted your shoulder with a fast swinging action that will make you fight better!"
Me "Thanks... still better than nothing. But I don't understand why you removed the arm in the first place instead of just making it work more efficiently..."
Nurse "Stupid RPG player"

Thank you for giving me my smile for the day. :happy:

[Estelindis]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Virtual items win over items I have to deal with in an inventory. 

We already know that we have weapon mods in ME3, but I'll admit I assumed they'd be inventory items like ME1.  Maybe they just work like weapons do in ME2, though: once you find one, anyone in the group can access it.  But then how do we explain elements of the inventory returning, according to devs?

[Nightdragon8]

look as long as the mods don't have levels to them your inventory worries should be small. so insted of dealing with armor/weapons*5/biotic/omitool you will have an inventory for weapon mods maybe x2

[Dexi]

whitey4444 wrote...

Houston says that rather than remove the customization feature entirely, BioWare will make it more intuitive.

That is exactly what Bioware should have done in the first place but oh well. I love that Bioware listens but they need to work on IMPROVING over REMOVING features that don't quite work.

Your arm hurts, so you go to the doctor
Me: "My arm hurts. It takes 20 minutes for me to do anything"
Doctor "OK, we'll amputate it"

Come back 2 years later
Doctor "Oh wait, although the arm was painful it still was a vital part of what made your body work. We'll give you a smaller synthetic arm with less functionality. Maybe half the length, two fingers instead of 5, limit your elbow to small movements. It's not what it was, but you'll be able to do some things. However we've implanted your shoulder with a fast swinging action that will make you fight better!"
Me "Thanks... still better than nothing. But I don't understand why you removed the arm in the first place instead of just making it work more efficiently..."
Nurse "Stupid RPG player"

C


For what they seem to do on ME3, more like...

"Doc, arm hurts..."
"Ok, we'll chop it off."

2 days later

"Yeah, we shouldnt've cut off your arm... But we'll give you this robotic arm... Yeah, with the robotic joints you can bend it whichever way you want... its hydraulic system gives it more strength than an average human's arm, and it's also slightly faster... Two things though: you must dismount it when you shower, and I'd suggest you use the other hand when touching yourself..."

[Raizo]

Toshir wrote...

I'm not a fan of a very linear game. The story makes up for it but I want a more open game. Anyone agree or disagree?

It depends on how you execute it. I tend to prefer more linear games myself to games like GTA where you can go anywhere and do anything your heart desires but in rpg's I do feel that side missions and exploration away from the storyline is important as well especially in the ME games where we literally have a whole entire Universe to explore. As such I would prefer it if ME3 began out as being very linear ( at least for the first 3 or 4 missions for the sake of pacing the story and keeping a sense of urgency ) and after you get 1/4 of the way through the game exploration opurtunities begin to apear and maybe after the 1/2 way point suddenly the game becomes very open ended.

I liked the way ME2 story flowed, the game was linear up untill the point you got the SR-2, then you had a choice of visiting 2 hub worlds ( the Citadel and Omega ) and could complete the recruitment missions n whatever order you wanted to, next up was Horizon and after that the whole entire galaxy opened up for exploration. In my opinion this was one of the many things that ME2 got right.

On the other hand I hated DA2, the way you get to Kirkwald and then all of a sudden you have all these sidequest to do and how doing them comes at the expense of the urgency of the main plot, would you believe me if I told you I gave up on DA2 before I ever got around to the Deep Road's expedition?

I also have issues with the way ME1 was paced, the Citadel in particular is a massive pet peeve. I do feel that the Citadel is a very intimidating place to visit so early in the game, it's soo huge and Shepard and his party are going to be stuck there for next few hours of gameplay doing side quests and talking to people and recruiting people all of wich involves walking from one side of the Citadel to the other.

[RocketManSR2]

Lumikki wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Not every RPG has to be a dry, stat-driven experience, it can have action too.

For a lot of people, the stats ARE the RPG.  When the focus of a game moves toward story, suddenly there's no game left for them anymore.  It's sad really, but it's what they like.

When focus moves more into playing role in story direction, real roleplaying kicks in. Because stats are just used to customize players character, they are tool for roleplaying. When stats it self becomes gameplay for player, roleplaying is totally lost and metagaming starts. Adjusting numbers is not roleplaying.

I couldn't have said it better. Another person (on these forums, I think) said that the RP in "RPG" is the most important thing. The G is the delivery system for the role-playing elements, nothing more. It was something to that effect, anyway. ME & ME2 are two of the greatest RPGs ever made, and nobody will convince me otherwise.  

[Srast]

Of course Bioware are taking criticisms of their past games seriously and using that to improve future games. That's what a development studio does, or at least should do. Here's hoping they can make a game that appeals to the largest chunk of their demographic.

[knightnblu]

Maybe this is a crazy idea and won't work, but why don't game developers test games for people's reactions prior to publishing the title? A non-disclosure agreement could secure the property, but flaws in execution could be caught and corrected prior to release. You don't even have to name the property, you could just use storyboards to test story elements and VA. That's what Hollywood does and video games are moving ever closer to interactive movies where you are as much a part of the story as the supporting characters.

While DA2 had some issues, I still liked the game. However, many of the criticisms launched at the title remain valid. Such testing could potentially have corrected these issues and greatly improved the title. Elements that have traditionally left a sour taste in the mouths of gamers (romance comes to mind) can be tested and corrected prior to release, and that would relieve the pressure on game producers tremendously.

If I am wrong and this is already being done, then the evaluations are greatly flawed and require work. All too often, those who work on the project are too close to the work to perceive the flaws and this is why an outside opinion is helpful. If the property can be secured properly, I see no reason why this should not be done.

I would think that Hollywood would also be a good guide for this type of testing because the intellectual rights are similar to those found in video gaming, and the industry need not break new ground in order to develop a similar QA procedure and could also avoid some of the pitfalls of the process.

[marshalleck]

Crimmsonwind wrote...
Man... I don't get why people keep saying this.

Because people who aren't you have different thoughts and opinions. Other people aren't merely a reflection of yourself. 

Shocking revelation!

[Gatt9]

RocketManSR2 wrote...

Lumikki wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Not every RPG has to be a dry, stat-driven experience, it can have action too.

For a lot of people, the stats ARE the RPG.  When the focus of a game moves toward story, suddenly there's no game left for them anymore.  It's sad really, but it's what they like.

When focus moves more into playing role in story direction, real roleplaying kicks in. Because stats are just used to customize players character, they are tool for roleplaying. When stats it self becomes gameplay for player, roleplaying is totally lost and metagaming starts. Adjusting numbers is not roleplaying.

I couldn't have said it better. Another person (on these forums, I think) said that the RP in "RPG" is the most important thing. The G is the delivery system for the role-playing elements, nothing more. It was something to that effect, anyway. ME & ME2 are two of the greatest RPGs ever made, and nobody will convince me otherwise.  

The problem with the whole concept is that the stats are what defines the Role you take on,  and lets the game respond appropriately.  Without stats,  the Role is entirely illusionary,  pretending,  and the game takes no note.

Such as ME2,  where my 100% paragon was able to murder someone in cold blood by kicking them off a building without anyone noticing.

Or Oblivion where people "Roleplayed" a guard and just stood staring at a gate for 8 hours a day.

Without the stats,  the game takes no note of the "Role" because the character is never defined.  All you're doing is pretending,  and I'll bet those most of the people who assert that it's "Real roleplaying" are self-inserting instead of taking on a Role.

[Savber100]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Crimmsonwind wrote...

Savber100 wrote...


This is interesting as while it's not a direct quote per se, it seems that Bioware has finally admitted that DA2's story was extremely flawed. Good to see that the ME team is learning from their DA counterparts.

Man... I don't get why people keep saying this.

It's the wishful thinking of a Jilted Boyfriend.

Was the story perfect?  Nah.  Was it "extremely flawed?"  Nah.

Fixed. ;P

I acknowledge the frame narrative was unique (for normal Bioware fare) and it was a great idea on paper but the execution was poor. 


The story was dragged this way and that. There was no buildup and no tension which is crucial for a medium like video games.

Look at the trailer where Flemeth quotes



"We stand on the precipice of change. War and death approach, you can not evade it, you can not deceive it."

Guess what? We did avoid it. The entire ****ing game ended just as the war began. <_<

Everything was just pointless wandering with Act 1 being a mere "get rich" quest. Act 2 being slightly better where you have a goal in stopping the Arishok which just felt like a brief incursion. Act 3 where you just watch as a bystander as the world just blows up. Half of the game was a just a set-up for DA3 and nothing else.

Modifié par Savber100, 02 juillet 2011 - 04:41 .

[Iakus]

Gatt9 wrote...

The problem with the whole concept is that the stats are what defines the Role you take on,  and lets the game respond appropriately.  Without stats,  the Role is entirely illusionary,  pretending,  and the game takes no note.

Such as ME2,  where my 100% paragon was able to murder someone in cold blood by kicking them off a building without anyone noticing.

Or Oblivion where people "Roleplayed" a guard and just stood staring at a gate for 8 hours a day.

Without the stats,  the game takes no note of the "Role" because the character is never defined.  All you're doing is pretending,  and I'll bet those most of the people who assert that it's "Real roleplaying" are self-inserting instead of taking on a Role.

I'd say the examples you gave are more of an example of lack of consequences, which to me are the heart of an rpg.  It's not the stats, but the ability to act a certain way and have that action noted and reacted to.

It doesn't matter what your paragon/renegade score is, if you kick the guy out the window, nobody says much. Stats don't matter cause there's nothing to talk your way out of.

 Now, kicking him out the window or intmiidating him into silence, or simply shooting everything that moves, that's roleplaying in my book.  You're defining what kind of "Shepard" your Shepard is.

[KLUME777]

slimgrin wrote...

Mass Effect is the thoroughbred of Bioware, not Dragon Age. You can be sure they have taken note of criticism. That still may not directly affect who they choose to market the game to.

It should'nt be though, DAO sold more. I wish DA was, and i hope they take extreme care with DA3.