39 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabariel]

No, it's not everyone betraying you. The thing that bugs me the most is... Merrill and the Keeper don't acknowledge each other... at all. Sure, Merrill has her little whine before Marethari shows up, but beyond that you wouldn't even know that they knew each other! The Keeper doesn't even take the opportunity to say: "Oh, look. You fell prey to a demon. How surprising!" if Merrill betrays you. She just says "Your friend awakened some time ago." Uh... really?

I swear... this game drove my OCD nuts with little things like this....

Modifié par Sabariel, 01 juillet 2011 - 05:51 .

[Chiramu]

Merrill would be the last person I would choose to go into the Fade, cause you already know she accepts offers from demons >.>.

[Foolsfolly]

Chiramu wrote...

Merrill would be the last person I would choose to go into the Fade, cause you already know she accepts offers from demons >.>.

At the very least the Fade should underline the fact that Merrill will risk anything to 'save her people.'

I put that in quotes because Merrill never properly explains why or how the mirror will save her people. The closest she gets is saying that she's 'saving' a part of their past. Which is a fun bit of word play, Merrill.

[DPSSOC]

Yeah I was kinda disappointed in that too. It didn't necessarily have to be a chastisement for betraying you (Marethari might not know the details) but a motherly warning to be careful, you're dealing with powerful demons in their domain, etc. Heck even an, "It is good to see you are well child." would have been nice.

[Foolsfolly]

She just says "Your friend awakened some time ago."

She says that regardless of Merrill being there or not. It's a nice 'cover-all' kind of quote. The only problem is you can walk into the Fade with Merrill, Isabela, and Anders and have all three betray you and she'll still refer to a singular one friend.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah my Hawke was done after NT. At that point the only person they trusted was themselves.

It's too bad Bethany and Carver couldn't have been there. Carver maybe a world class twerp but he wouldn't backstab Hawke and Bethany certainly wouldn't.

[TEWR]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Chiramu wrote...

Merrill would be the last person I would choose to go into the Fade, cause you already know she accepts offers from demons >.>.

At the very least the Fade should underline the fact that Merrill will risk anything to 'save her people.'

I put that in quotes because Merrill never properly explains why or how the mirror will save her people. The closest she gets is saying that she's 'saving' a part of their past. Which is a fun bit of word play, Merrill.

She knows that they were used for communication (she tells Hawke this as well as Varric), and if she can get it to work she could make more and all of the clans could carry them with them, making it easier for them to communicate with one another. The clans already carry around heavy statues, so one more heavy thing isn't gonna hurt anybody (well..... you know what I mean).

[sphinxess]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yeah my Hawke was done after NT. At that point the only person they trusted was themselves.

It's too bad Bethany and Carver couldn't have been there. Carver maybe a world class twerp but he wouldn't backstab Hawke and Bethany certainly wouldn't.

Since the entire point of the quest was under the power of a dreamer mage there will be betrayals - Carter and Bethany would have gone the same way

Modifié par sphinxess, 01 juillet 2011 - 07:29 .

[Ryzaki]

sphinxess wrote...
Since the entire point of the quest was under the power of a dreamer mage there will be betrayals - Carter and Bethany would have gone the same way

 

Ugh so weak. 

It might've held some weight if Hawke was tempted with something you know solid. Would've been a good temptation to bring Malcolm/Bethany/Carver back to life and you know play up on that whole family angle. 

Instead what we got was another missed opportunity and generic demon temptation when there was really no excuse. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 juillet 2011 - 07:32 .

[Foolsfolly]

No, I actually agree. There's no way either Carver or Bethany would betray Hawke. Ever. Bethany owes her life to her family making huge sacrifices to keep her safe. She knows this and would not betray Hawke now for anything. Carver becomes a Templar and never once narcs on his sibling, despite having motive and profit for it.

Are there things a demon could offer them that would tempt them? Of course. Maybe I am a softie but I don't see them betraying Hawke for anything.

[Demx]

Did the killing Merrill in the fade part mess with your OCD? It messed with mine. I thought that if you killed a person in the fade they become tranquil. Or is there a special condition for it not to happen?

[whykikyouwhy]

Siradix wrote...

Did the killing Merrill in the fade part mess with your OCD? It messed with mine. I thought that if you killed a person in the fade they become tranquil. Or is there a special condition for it not to happen?

I think only "dreamers" can be made tranquil if killed in the Fade. So regardless of what mage is killed, unless they are considered a dreamer, they should be fine.

The wiki has this: "Killing a mortal dreaming in the Fade is a shock to their living bodies, but not lethal. The person merely wakes up."

[Chiramu]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Siradix wrote...

Did the killing Merrill in the fade part mess with your OCD? It messed with mine. I thought that if you killed a person in the fade they become tranquil. Or is there a special condition for it not to happen?

I think only "dreamers" can be made tranquil if killed in the Fade. So regardless of what mage is killed, unless they are considered a dreamer, they should be fine.

The wiki has this: "Killing a mortal dreaming in the Fade is a shock to their living bodies, but not lethal. The person merely wakes up."

You should be able to just kick them then , like the old saying to pinch yourself to see if you're dreaming XD.

[whykikyouwhy]

Chiramu wrote...

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Siradix wrote...

Did the killing Merrill in the fade part mess with your OCD? It messed with mine. I thought that if you killed a person in the fade they become tranquil. Or is there a special condition for it not to happen?

I think only "dreamers" can be made tranquil if killed in the Fade. So regardless of what mage is killed, unless they are considered a dreamer, they should be fine.

The wiki has this: "Killing a mortal dreaming in the Fade is a shock to their living bodies, but not lethal. The person merely wakes up."

You should be able to just kick them then , like the old saying to pinch yourself to see if you're dreaming XD.

Heh. Maybe the option to put a companion's hand in a bucket of water was removed pre-launch.

[Rifneno]

Chiramu wrote...

Merrill would be the last person I would choose to go into the Fade, cause you already know she accepts offers from demons >.>.

This.

Foolsfolly wrote...

At the very least the Fade should underline the fact that Merrill will risk anything to 'save her people.'

I put that in quotes because Merrill never properly explains why or how the mirror will save her people. The closest she gets is saying that she's 'saving' a part of their past. Which is a fun bit of word play, Merrill.

This, too. At first I thought it was one of those posts trying to ignore the fact she's a lunatic because she's cute (in someone else's opinion I suppose, new elves make me wanna toss my cookies) and talks about all her good motives. Which, as you say, make no sense.

I still think the eluvian will end up being a portal that threatens to engulf Thedas in a screaming nightmare existence from which there is no escape. Well, not the one Merrill had perhaps because she sometimes breaks it. But an eluvian. I mean c'mon people, the two biggest mysteries with the elves are the eluvians, which we know act as a teleportation device to an unknown dimension, and that Arlathan just up and vanished. This isn't a scooby doo mystery. Two plus two is...

Ryzaki wrote...

Yeah my Hawke was done after NT. At that point the only person they trusted was themselves.

It's too bad Bethany and Carver couldn't have been there. Carver maybe a world class twerp but he wouldn't backstab Hawke and Bethany certainly wouldn't.

Carver might be the single character most susceptible to a pride demon. His entire life is basically about living in his sibling's shadow and he's always a pissy little ingrate because of it to the point he won't hesitate to say things that often lead to real life siblings never speaking to each other again (blaming the death of a family member on another). If these demons can manage to turn Aveline and Varric, Carver wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell. Bethany... I don't know. She seems the most sane and level headed person in the game, but it seems as if the plot gods have decreed that no one except Hawke and Feynriel himself can resist Feynriel's dream demons. Well, and Justice, but he doesn't count for obvious reasons.

[jlb524]

Sabariel wrote...

No, it's not everyone betraying you. The thing that bugs me the most is... Merrill and the Keeper don't acknowledge each other... at all. Sure, Merrill has her little whine before Marethari shows up, but beyond that you wouldn't even know that they knew each other! The Keeper doesn't even take the opportunity to say: "Oh, look. You fell prey to a demon. How surprising!" if Merrill betrays you. She just says "Your friend awakened some time ago." Uh... really?

I swear... this game drove my OCD nuts with little things like this....

Because it wasn't the Keeper...in the Fade.

And I doubt she wanted to get into an argument with Merrill in front of all the others...cuz they already did that repeatedly before.

[nightscrawl]

Sabariel wrote...

No, it's not everyone betraying you. The thing that bugs me the most is... Merrill and the Keeper don't acknowledge each other... at all. Sure, Merrill has her little whine before Marethari shows up, but beyond that you wouldn't even know that they knew each other! The Keeper doesn't even take the opportunity to say: "Oh, look. You fell prey to a demon. How surprising!" if Merrill betrays you. She just says "Your friend awakened some time ago." Uh... really?

I swear... this game drove my OCD nuts with little things like this....

I noticed that the last time I played and also found it really annoying. Not only that, but but if you lose multiple companions, or all of them, she doesn't say plural "friends," which I also thought was annoying >.>.

One thing about that quest though, it's a good way to get extra rivalry/friendship if you're trying to meta game.

[DPSSOC]

Siradix wrote...

Did the killing Merrill in the fade part mess with your OCD? It messed with mine. I thought that if you killed a person in the fade they become tranquil. Or is there a special condition for it not to happen?

It could be because Feynriel is deeper into the Fade than you, kind of like Nial was.  You're just visitng, Feynriel's rented an apartment, bought a futon, and started flirting with the hot chick down the hall.

[Ryzaki]

Carver might be susceptible to said demon if it didn't ask him to kill his brother. Carver has plenty of chances to stab mage Hawke in the back for power and influence. He never does it.

[LobselVith8]

Chiramu wrote...

Merrill would be the last person I would choose to go into the Fade, cause you already know she accepts offers from demons >.>.

Merrill got Audacity to teach her blood magic because she didn't have the sufficient amount of lyrium to cleanse the shard of the Eluvian, which is the extent of it. Audacity is trapped inside a totem by ancient elven magic, and it's not even clear if she was ever in any danger of being possessed by dealing with it, since even Keeper Marethari didn't think dealing with Audacity would get Merrill possessed but speculated the Eluvian was the means to his freedom. Besides Merrill's warning to be careful when Hawke asks for her advice in the Deep Roads, her ability to discern the type of demon the Profane Abomination is, her proficient use of blood magic for several years, her adept use of the arcane arts to tell whether Keran was possessed or not, and her admitting that all spirits are dangerous, I see in Merrill one of the few mages in the storyline who doesn't act like a complete fool - hello Decimus, Grace, Quentin, Orsino, el. ect.

Foolsfolly wrote...

Chiramu wrote...

Merrill would be the last person I would choose to go into the Fade, cause you already know she accepts offers from demons >.>.

At the very least the Fade should underline the fact that Merrill will risk anything to 'save her people.'

I put that in quotes because Merrill never properly explains why or how the mirror will save her people. The closest she gets is saying that she's 'saving' a part of their past. Which is a fun bit of word play, Merrill.

Merrill never properly explains the Eluvian to Hawke for the same reason Morrigan's explanation about the Eluvian was similarly vague - to keep viewers in suspense about what it truly is, and what's on the other side.

Ryzaki wrote...

Yeah my Hawke was done after NT. At that point the only person they trusted was themselves.

It's too bad Bethany and Carver couldn't have been there. Carver maybe a world class twerp but he wouldn't backstab Hawke and Bethany certainly wouldn't.

You can bet that Carver and Bethany would have betrayed Hawke because Night Terrors forces every one of Hawke's companions (except for Anders) to betray Hawke, after less than a minute of dialogue from a demon. I don't take the quest seriously because it's hard to take such a riduculous premise seriously at all - everyone betrays Hawke because of thirty seconds of dialogue, even if they are romantically involved with Hawke, while Hawke specifically is never once in danger from the demons of the Fade, even if Hawke isn't a mage and has never been to the Fade before?

Rifneno wrote...

I still think the eluvian will end up being a portal that threatens to engulf Thedas in a screaming nightmare existence from which there is no escape. Well, not the one Merrill had perhaps because she sometimes breaks it. But an eluvian. I mean c'mon people, the two biggest mysteries with the elves are the eluvians, which we know act as a teleportation device to an unknown dimension, and that Arlathan just up and vanished. This isn't a scooby doo mystery. Two plus two is...

The ancient Tevinter mages destroyed Arlathan with blood magic and sank the entire kingdom.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 01 juillet 2011 - 05:40 .

[Foolsfolly]

Merrill never properly explains the Eluvian to Hawke for the same reason Morrigan's explanation about the Eluvian was similarly vague - to keep viewers in suspense about what it truly is, and what's on the other side.

Then how are we the players supposed to make decisions on these items.

"What is it? A mirror?"

"No. It's...powerful ancient relics. The Tevinter thought they were just used for communication but that's not even a portion of their true power" -This information is entirely gleamed from Witch Hunt and not DA2.

"So what will it do?"

"Hopefully not fall on someone, aren't I cute?"

"No, seriously. What will this do?"

"It won't hurt anyone."

"....that's a possibility? What the crap does this thing do?"

"It's saving my people. You don't trust me!"

"WHAT DOES IT DO!"

How can we make any kind of informed decision without information? We really only going on trust of Merrill's judgment and skill?" She's skilled enough, I guess, but her judgment is in extreme doubt.

[Torax]

While semi off topic to night terrors. Part of me wonders about the Eluvians and the fact that it's possible even the Magisters didn't understand their purpose fully before they dismantled the Elven Knowledge and destroyed Alrathan. It does appear that both Tevinter and the Imperium acknowledge that Arlathan existed. They just differ on other things like Tevinter claiming that Elves were never immortal. It was implied in the Dalish Origin that something dark was on the other side of the Eluvian that Duncan shattered.

The implication of the Darkness would have some to assume the Eluvian in the Dalish Origin was viewing the Black City on the other side. I'm not sure of that since if it was true then the Tevinter Imperium would have used said items surely at some point. Also if the sin is what corrupted said location? Then why didn't the Elves corrupt it sooner. But we only even have that theory mostly from the Chantry though lore probably fits in that somewhere in Ancient times. Regardless the Mirror can be argued as more trouble than it is worth. The only conflict I have with Merrill was her willingness to sacrifice herself to fix it, even after she had already decided Tamlen was long since dead.

As for Night Terrors it'self. I think it's lame that they'll all turn on you. The saddest part is it means you end up just basing it on either taking which companions you want some friendship or rivalry with or based on which companion overrides the others around them...

[MinotaurWarrior]

Arlathan's disappearance, as stated above, is well explained. The two greatest mysteries are, what's up with the Eluvians, and what happened to their gods? We know the enemy (Tevinter) gods got turned into the archdemons, but what about Elgar'nan and co? I think we can put two and two together, and say that Merrill's quest is extremely important. She's trying to get the gods back.

Of course, this is just a fan theory of mine, and very off topic.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I don't know since I always take Anders, fenris and Varic, only Varic betrays me, and he apologizes believably after the fact.

As for that mirror, would have been nice to see it function again and maybe it could tell us what became of Morrigan's child if we did the ritual in DAO.

[Rifneno]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The ancient Tevinter mages destroyed Arlathan with blood magic and sank the entire kingdom.

Yeah, I've heard that in-game. I completely disregard it. I'm rarely one to say "never," and even the darkspawn origin story the Chantry preaches I only take with a grain of salt. Blood mages sinking a kingdom? That's just plain asinine. Nothing we've seen shows mages having a fraction of that power. To destroy a landmass? That's just... okay, for example, Krakatoa. You're familiar with the disaster I presume? That eruption was the equivalent of 200,000,000 tons of TNT. 14,285 times as powerful as the Hiroshima nuke. And some of the island survived even that. There have been a few noted cases of sizable cities sinking (Helike, Ubar, Port Royal) but in every case they were built on unstable land, i.e. sand, and a massive natural disaster reminded them that sand moves. Arlathan was forested. Solid ground. The amount of power it would take to sink it is mindblowing even by modern standards with nuclear weapons and asteroids in our mental database. If Tevinter possessed that kind of magical arsenal, the First Blight would be no big deal because obliterating a darkspawn horde would be a cakewalk. Lastly it just doesn't make any sense to sink it. It would take a small fraction of that power to simply lay waste to it and leave it in ruins. But if it were teleported somewhere... that'd make a lot more sense. And the only teleportation known is the eluvian, an elven artifact rather than Tevinter.