48 réponses à ce sujet

[CajNatalie]

So, despite the fact that it adds a new dimension to 'gameplay', thermal clips are a very controvertial topic that aren't taken too well by very many people.

While on my current ME1 run, a much better reasoning than 'lolrateoffireletsswitchfrominfiniteammoevenonsnipers/shotguns' occurred to me.

Engineers.

Anyone who's actually given the Engineer a chance in Mass Effect 1 and taken them through Insanity mode knows that it really doesn't matter how 'squishy' they are. You walk in to a room, drop some Sabotage, and everyone's just a bunch of wailing idiots waiting to be shot because all their weapons are overheated and unable to vent.
Imagine if Sabotage became so prevelant that the need to make disposable; ejectable heatsinks became enough to make the idea of switching from infinite ammo actually... you know... a good idea.

If one side could spam Sabotage, the other side's fixed-heat-sink guns were useless.
The Engineer of ME1 is far too underrated.
I'm currently playing as the Engineer running around in full view pretty much without taking a single hit to my armor... no-one can shoot me enough to get through my shields even though I'm playing 99% aggressively.

Now if only BioWare had used this explanation... how many people out there would actually accept it?
I know I would.

It would also have given more attention to the Engineer class, rather than the explanation simply being 100% about pew pew pew.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 01 juillet 2011 - 02:12 .

[Ace of Dawn]

Very plausible, indeed. Though with that said, Overload still "overheats" weapons in ME2, I'd chalk that up to gameplay and story segregation.

Honestly, I never really thought that the reasoning behind it was weak. It makes sense, in a real world scenario, a trained soldier would lower their rate of fire to minimize chances of overheat, and just sit their idly if it ever did. With thermal clips, that's not the case.

Though with that said, there could be other reasons or benefits such as yours. I personally thought up that the components used for most guns was expensive (something that could constantly and reliably vent heat without noticeable performance loss would be pricy to produce constantly), and after the losses sustained by the Geth and Sovereign, it wasn't quite as practical. With cheaper to produce thermal clips, you'd also have something people would have to buy (instead of just buying a gun, you have to buy clips to make it useful). From there, considerable money generation for everyone.

Of course, that's the nice thing about the universe, pretty easy to expand on the little things.

[Pride Demon]

That's an interesting explanation... Nice work! I like it!
Though I never found the explanation given weak actually...

I can't remember exactly, so don't quote me on it, but I believe that aside from gameplay, there was an actual in game explanation for thermal clips: they are Geth technology...
When the battle against Sovvie and its Geth took place, the Alliance marines noticed that the Geth had a much easier time fighting and seemed to be capable of constant firing without the nead to wait for cool down in weapons...

When a Geth Pulse Rifle was finally recovered intact (which was difficult enough) the Alliance discovered two things: first the Geth Rifle fire rate wasn't a constant, but rather followed a sinusoid (it goes back and forth between a fast and slow firing rate automatically at regular intervals) this allowed the weapon to cool a bit during slow firing more...
Second the Geth used expendable heat sinks filled with coolant fuid (the same white fluid making up their "blood"), that got used up as the weapon fired and were then ejected and replaced with a fresh one when exausted...

This gave them a strong advantage: a simple marine has to wait minutes for cool downs, while a Geth spends a few second ejecting the clip and starts firing again, the constant firepower of the Geth was simply overwhelming...
To make matters worse, the simple fact the Geth could rely on expendable heat sinks made it so their rifles were tweaked to pack a he*k more of a punch than normal non heat sink using rifles (increasing firepower causes the rifle to overheat faster, but then they just change heat sink)...

So what happened was a simple "use their technology against them": the Alliance (and Council space as a whole) began mass producing heat sink compatible rifles...
Since now the weapon factories were free from the "don't strengthen the gun firepower to much or it will constantly overheat" rule, they simply bumped the weapon stength of everything up a notch... So much that now the weapons depend on heatsinks, without them the weapon will overheat immediately, so if you don't have them the weapon security system kicks in and prevents firing to avoid malfunctions...
That's it... At least as far as I know... I always found it a sound explanation...

Now if you were to be asking, why are there heat sinks in Jacob's loyalty considering the Hugo Gernsback disappered 8 years before heat sinks actually were discovered, then I'd have no way of explaining it aside from "gameplay and story segregation", as Ace of Dawn puts it... ;P

[CajNatalie]

I'm not saying the current reasoning isn't plausible in some way - I personally just deal with it, but the controversy surrounding the switch is enough to demonstrate its weaknesses. What you just wrote, Pride Demon is far more in depth than what's in the codex, but at least it proves that the current reasoning could be considered strong.

Now if only we didn't have to strengthen it with such reasoning ourselves, though... for a game that goes out of its way to having some huge codex to (apparently) explain its workings, if it's still up to us to fill in the blanks so it actually fits with the game it's made for... then there's a problem.

[neubourn]

 You are discussing lore, but most of the anger over it is because of Gameplay reasons: i.e. people that were used to unlimited ammo, now have to spend time wandering around looking for clips.

Lore-wise, it didnt make much sense that Cmdr Shepard knew what a thermal clip was after being dead for 2 years, but outside that, clips make sense in the lore.

Gameplay-wise, what they should do in ME3 is make a hybrid system..you use clips like normal, but if you run out, you have to time your shots more slowly so it doesnt overheat (they can even change it so it overheats more quickly then it did in ME1), until you fund some more clips.

[Destroy Raiden_]

There really isn't a good enough reason for why they traded fast shooting weapons for slow shooting and low damage ones.

[Black Raptor]

Destroy Raiden wrote...

There really isn't a good enough reason for why they traded fast shooting weapons for slow shooting and low damage ones.

The weapons do more damage, its just defence technology has advanced slightly further. 

[dreman9999]

Ace of Dawn wrote...

Very plausible, indeed. Though with that said, Overload still "overheats" weapons in ME2, I'd chalk that up to gameplay and story segregation.

Honestly, I never really thought that the reasoning behind it was weak. It makes sense, in a real world scenario, a trained soldier would lower their rate of fire to minimize chances of overheat, and just sit their idly if it ever did. With thermal clips, that's not the case.

Though with that said, there could be other reasons or benefits such as yours. I personally thought up that the components used for most guns was expensive (something that could constantly and reliably vent heat without noticeable performance loss would be pricy to produce constantly), and after the losses sustained by the Geth and Sovereign, it wasn't quite as practical. With cheaper to produce thermal clips, you'd also have something people would have to buy (instead of just buying a gun, you have to buy clips to make it useful). From there, considerable money generation for everyone.

Of course, that's the nice thing about the universe, pretty easy to expand on the little things.

And it Overload over heats my gun...then I just swith out my heat clip for my gun......But my shield has to be down first in order for my guns tobe over heated.

[CajNatalie]

dreman9999 wrote...

And it Overload over heats my gun...then I just swith out my heat clip for my gun......But my shield has to be down first in order for my guns tobe over heated.

This is exactly what I'm talking about.
The enemy wants to sabotage your gun? Pop the heat sink and shoot the bastard responsible in the face for it.

So now Sabotage is obsolete, and only lives on as a side-effect of Overload when there's no more shield to overload on the target.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

Good idea!

I'm one of those who despises the awful, nonsensical in-game explanation. In theory it's good, but ME1 disproves it. Why would I need to lower my rate of fire when I can customise my Assault Rifle in ME1 so that it never overheats?! I can just sit there all day long with my finger on the trigger and I'm set, no worries.

The explanation you came up with though makes far more sense, and I'm a bit baffled as to why Bioware couldn't do that...

[FOZ289]

Engineers terrorized the galaxy into completely revolutionizing and replacing every single piece of weaponry?
It's not implausible given that ME2 believes science is magic.

[Ace of Dawn]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Good idea!

I'm one of those who despises the awful, nonsensical in-game explanation. In theory it's good, but ME1 disproves it. Why would I need to lower my rate of fire when I can customise my Assault Rifle in ME1 so that it never overheats?! I can just sit there all day long with my finger on the trigger and I'm set, no worries.

The explanation you came up with though makes far more sense, and I'm a bit baffled as to why Bioware couldn't do that...

Actually, that's a fairly weak argument. Not everyone has access to top-of-the-line mods and prototype weaponry. While there were obviously ways to "cheat" weapons into firing limitlessly, it's not something that would be practical to equip an army with. And that's what you must consider, while you were able to make a weapon that could fire forever, not everyone could. When presented with information showing how they could improve most tech, they did the retrofit. In fact, having guns that powerful would make things *more* difficult, since it would be no time until every man, woman, and child could have access to a gun that had zero drawbacks.

Really though, in the end, there was little reason why Bioware had to go and explain themselves in detail. Considering how much thought they put in other stuff, they probably did think it all the way through, and felt that in the end, it wasn't necessary to explain the full logic. Either you'd be okay with it and move on, or dislike it pretty much no matter what. As long as pulling the trigger messes up someone's day, I'm happy.

FOZ289 wrote...

Engineers terrorized the galaxy into completely revolutionizing and replacing every single piece of weaponry?
It's not implausible given that ME2 believes science is magic.

Clarke's Third Law

Modifié par Ace of Dawn, 02 juillet 2011 - 05:29 .

[CajNatalie]

Ace of Dawn wrote...

Actually, that's a fairly weak argument. Not everyone has access to top-of-the-line mods and prototype weaponry. While there were obviously ways to "cheat" weapons into firing limitlessly, it's not something that would be practical to equip an army with. And that's what you must consider, while you were able to make a weapon that could fire forever, not everyone could. When presented with information showing how they could improve most tech, they did the retrofit. In fact, having guns that powerful would make things *more* difficult, since it would be no time until every man, woman, and child could have access to a gun that had zero drawbacks.

Really though, in the end, there was little reason why Bioware had to go and explain themselves in detail. Considering how much thought they put in other stuff, they probably did think it all the way through, and felt that in the end, it wasn't necessary to explain the full logic. Either you'd be okay with it and move on, or dislike it pretty much no matter what. As long as pulling the trigger messes up someone's day, I'm happy.

You make an extremely good point about only select people such as Shepard and co. getting access to 0-heat-gain-moddable weapons.

At least this is one good reason that stands on its own merits as far as arguing why there would be a switch from constant-fire weaponry. Unfortunately it's not possible to use this in the 'why re-invent the issue of ammo' problem.

[Bluko]

That's been about the only sound explanation for Thermal Clips existing. Except guess what?

Overload still overheats/disables weapons in ME2. So Thermal Clips still didn't solve jack squat. (I may be mistaken, but I don't believe I've ever seen an enemy reload after being hit Overload.)

Truthfully told it would have been a better explanation then: the Geth did it! Also abilities like Sabotage technically make use of of a small mine. Therefore battles would be decided by whoever carries the most Thermal Clips or Sabotage mines. Of course the thing to keep in mind is most of these things, even in ME1 were purely gameplay mechanics. (It's just they had some logical basis for existing or working the way do in ME1.)

Thermal Clips (Ammo) was added purely for gameplay. Actually pretty much everything added in ME2 in was done for the sake of gameplay at expense of the existing fictional universe. So essentially you have a game that plays slightly better albeit at a much larger expense to the lore. The fact they put effort into creating something like the Codex, but then pretty much all but disregard on a constant basis makes me question why it's even there. If they're not going to adhere to it I honestly would be happier if they removed the Codex in ME3.

If you're not going to explain something properly then don't even bother. That's just my attitude on the matter.


For me the thing I don't get is why don't Weapons vent heat via some other method? Or why don't Weapons recycle Thermal Clips? It is so incredibly stupid that not only do guns require ammo blocks but they now require several Thermal Clips to fire for any reasonable amount of time. Sounds like a logistics nightmare. Lucky for Shepard every other time he puts a hole in a Mercs head they barf-up a Thermal Clip before dying.

Personally I don't see why Shepard and the rest of the Galaxy simply revert back to bows and arrows. The speed is to slow to trigger shields and most enemies don't wear that much armor or any at all that could stop a well made tip.

Maybe we can have throwing knives in ME3? Meh I have a bad feeling you can probably "stab" your entire way through ME3 with just the Omni-Blade.

[CajNatalie]

I haven't done an Overload using class beyond one little run on Normal/Veteran yet, so I can't say whether the 6 second effect is cancelled by popping a sink, but I can say that with Disruptor Ammo I've seen mooks always slap the sides of their guns the moment they start steaming.

Besides, even without sink popping, 6 seconds and 25 seconds is a big difference.
6 seconds still seems more like a convenient side-effect of Overload as opposed to the juicy half a minute you get from using Sabotage; doing exactly what it's designed to do.

[DrinkySmurf]

Caj, that is the best explanation for the new ammo I have ever read. Ace, you are correct in general, an army would not have access to Spectre class weapons, but Cerberus could outfit Shepard with his old superior firepower. Maybe initially he would be stuck with the ammo guns, but then he could be supplied with Spectre guns again. Honestly though, with this explanation, I can even see why that would not be possible. If Bioware implements this, I will support the ammo guns.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

Ace of Dawn wrote...

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Good idea!

I'm one of those who despises the awful, nonsensical in-game explanation. In theory it's good, but ME1 disproves it. Why would I need to lower my rate of fire when I can customise my Assault Rifle in ME1 so that it never overheats?! I can just sit there all day long with my finger on the trigger and I'm set, no worries.

The explanation you came up with though makes far more sense, and I'm a bit baffled as to why Bioware couldn't do that...

Actually, that's a fairly weak argument. Not everyone has access to top-of-the-line mods and prototype weaponry. While there were obviously ways to "cheat" weapons into firing limitlessly, it's not something that would be practical to equip an army with. And that's what you must consider, while you were able to make a weapon that could fire forever, not everyone could. When presented with information showing how they could improve most tech, they did the retrofit. In fact, having guns that powerful would make things *more* difficult, since it would be no time until every man, woman, and child could have access to a gun that had zero drawbacks.

Oh of course, I recognise that, but...I'm Shepard. Surely if that were the case, then Cerberus could have just provided me with those same top of the line weapons? Plus it makes even less sense when you go on missions like Jacob's loyalty mission where thermal clips shouldn't even exist there.

Furthermore the Bioware change was handled very poorly in terms of enemies as well. Why would mercenaries and low-life scum get rid of perfectly good weapons just to switch over to newer ones? Not some of them, all of them. Would the Blue Suns or Blood Pack really care if their cannon-fodder's weapons could overheat? It makes no sense for an entire galaxy to have refitted with new weapons within the space of two years just because the weapons are slightly better. Add to that I would go as far as saying it's logistically impossible.

This alternative explanation makes much more sense - after all, if someone came up with tech that could essentially diable your weapons at will but the newer weapons weren't as vulnerable then it makes far, far more sense to refit with the newer tech.

[Get Magna Carter]

I thought munitions manufacturers decided they could make a lot of profit selling heat sinks and bribed enough people to overlook the possible problems of a soldier running out of sinks and ending up with a useless weapon

[The Spamming Troll]

i always thought we had TCs because bioware doesnt know what they are doing. atleast that was my understanding.

[E-MailA.K.A.Mr.Fox]

The only problem i have with it is the problems it caused to the story.

[CajNatalie]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

i always thought we had TCs because bioware doesnt know what they are doing. atleast that was my understanding.

Lol, this explanation would work, too... sadly, it doesn't apply in-Universe. XD

[H4RI]

Yeah, while a good explanation is good, the entire concept of thermal clips and ammo should never have been introduced. It just defeats the purpose from ME1 where ammo is not a necessity in battle and that weapons are not being dependent on external factors, meaning that soldiers have their weapons as adepts have their biotic powers; they just need the time to recharge. I didn’t like running around the battlefield looking for ammo, especially on the higher difficulty settings. So here is a note, in ME3 have a weapons upgrade that gets rid of thermal clips and the ammo concept. In my opinion, this was the weakest side of ME2, plus they lost a really good power with by removing overload.

[Praetor Knight]

CajNatalie wrote...

So, despite the fact that it adds a new dimension to 'gameplay', thermal clips are a very controvertial topic that aren't taken too well by very many people.

While on my current ME1 run, a much better reasoning than 'lolrateoffireletsswitchfrominfiniteammoevenonsnipers/shotguns' occurred to me.

Engineers.

Anyone who's actually given the Engineer a chance in Mass Effect 1 and taken them through Insanity mode knows that it really doesn't matter how 'squishy' they are. You walk in to a room, drop some Sabotage, and everyone's just a bunch of wailing idiots waiting to be shot because all their weapons are overheated and unable to vent.
Imagine if Sabotage became so prevelant that the need to make disposable; ejectable heatsinks became enough to make the idea of switching from infinite ammo actually... you know... a good idea.

If one side could spam Sabotage, the other side's fixed-heat-sink guns were useless.
The Engineer of ME1 is far too underrated.
I'm currently playing as the Engineer running around in full view pretty much without taking a single hit to my armor... no-one can shoot me enough to get through my shields even though I'm playing 99% aggressively.

Now if only BioWare had used this explanation... how many people out there would actually accept it?
I know I would.

It would also have given more attention to the Engineer class, rather than the explanation simply being 100% about pew pew pew.

I thought about Sabotage too, some time ago, but Bluko raises an interesting point about Overload in ME2 also. 

http://social.biowar...71476/6#5680400

[CajNatalie]

Overload didn't do anything to old-school weapons... and sabotage lasted for half a minute, instead of a few pitiful seconds... hence why it seems reasonable to see it as more of a side-effect of the tech against these 'new' weapons when there are no shields for the tech to hit.

Modifié par CajNatalie, 04 juillet 2011 - 01:38 .

[Thomas Andresen]

I'd agree that another approach than the ME1 approach was needed(as not only did it have the potential to make the game excessively, it was, and still is, a bugged mechanism), and I agree that the "thermal clips" was a conceptually sound solution, but I believe what would have been the best solution would be a middle ground.

Keep thermal clips, but let them cool over time, certainly not as fast the weapons in ME1 cooled down, that it was enough to make ejecting thermal clips not only viable, but preferable in any combat, compared to waiting for the sink to cool down. My only real issue with thermal clip, is that "heat sinks" that store heat permanently makes nada sense. I mean, unless you mounted the sink in an extremely heat resistant material, but that'd make even less sense. I've learned too much about physics not to dismiss that concept as bull**** with the technology introduced in the first game in mind. Not that that takes any high level knowledge of physics, mind.