85 réponses à ce sujet

[por favor]

Zanallen wrote...

Not really. The last time I played Origins, I had exhausted just about everyone's dialogue the first time I could talk to them in camp. The only exception is the companion quest and the dialogue right afterward.

See, and that's the difference between people like you and people like me. People like me like to talk to the party members endlessly, and people like you want to be paced. With the way the system was before, you had to freedom to do either. With the way the system is now, you're FORCED to be paced.

[Sutekh]

Zanallen wrote...

The problem with Origins is that you could conceivably exhaust all dialogue with a companion during the first time you spoke with them in camp.

True. But that could be solved by having some dialogs only pop up after a certain amount of time / certain events (the latter having been done on some occasion in DAO, IIRC)

The problem in DA2 is that it runs over a seven years period, and in these seven years, you only get to talk to your companions what three, four times?

There are several things that annoys me in the way the whole thing is handled in DA2 (and Awakening, btw):

- Party banters are wonderful, but almost always feel like you're never part of them. In fact, I sometimes even felt like a dirty eavesdropper. It was true in DAO too, but you could in turn have private conversations to compensate and feel those people were indeed more than followers or simple acquaintances. It makes you feel special, but not in a good way.

- You don't get to control when you initiate conversations. Of course, you can decide when to do such and such "converation quests", but you still have to wait for them to be available.

- When it comes to romance, especially with the live-in ones, it becomes catastrophic. Having your LI staying there at the exact same place all day long and serving you the exact same sentence for what's supposed to be three years is beyond unrealistic. Frankly, if my s.o. behaved like that IRL, I'd have them checked into the nearest asylum pronto (or gently kicked out, because, WTF?). As it is, and for all romances, it rather feels like a one night stand when the LI decided to linger on for whatever reasons. There only are a couple "romantic" interactions outside of the bedroom.

I have no problems filling the blanks, but a little help would be nice. I wouldn't mind the same "What's up? / What's up? / Anything new? / Not much " or "Hello, love. / What's for dinner? / *kissy kiss*" or even "Sorry, not tonight" thingies repeated with three or so different lines occuring randomly. I understand there's no possibilities for infinite dialogs.

Truth is, the whole thing makes me feel very, very lonely. And sad.

Modifié par Sutekh, 01 juillet 2011 - 04:08 .

[por favor]

Zanallen wrote...

por favor wrote...

Of course I am not the majority of BioWare consumers. Don't be silly. My point is that restricted dialogue is not what the majority asked for, yet it is what was implemented. As you stated before, "It is a problem because Gaider feels it is a problem." 

What about the consumers and what they consider a problem?

You don't know what the majority wants because you have no access to that kind of data.

Clearly these forums and other websites constitute as enough of a "majority" if BioWare is willing to make changes based on what these people ask for. After the amount of backlash DA:II got on here and many other websites, Laidlaw stated he will be taking said criticisms into consideration for the next installment.

When did these people EVER ask for dialogue restrictions? When was freedom of dialogue EVER a significant problem?

Modifié par por favor, 01 juillet 2011 - 04:15 .

[Zanallen]

Dormiglione wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Dormiglione wrote...

Not true. You had only the dialog that were available at that point of the quest. As the quest progressed, dialogues were added.

Not really. The last time I played Origins, I had exhausted just about everyone's dialogue the first time I could talk to them in camp. The only exception is the companion quest and the dialogue right afterward.

I played 10+ playthroughs in Origins and thats not true.

That's fine. I'm just saying my own experience. With my last playthrough, I went through all the dialogue with the companions that I had access to. Then I got their companion missions and did those. Then I had the follow up dialogue for the mission and...That was it. I had no other dialogue from the companions for the rest of the game.

[Zanallen]

@ Sutekh

Yes, the time skips didn't work as well as they could have.

[Uccio]

Sutekh wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

The problem with Origins is that you could conceivably exhaust all dialogue with a companion during the first time you spoke with them in camp.

True. But that could be solved by having some dialogs only pop up after a certain amount of time / certain events (the latter having been done on some occasion in DAO, IIRC)

The problem in DA2 is that it runs over a seven years period, and in these seven years, you only get to talk to your companions what three, four times?

There are several things that annoys me in the way the whole thing is handled in DA2 (and Awakening, btw):

- Party banters are wonderful, but almost always feel like you're never part of them. In fact, I sometimes even felt like a dirty eavesdropper. It was true in DAO too, but you could in turn have private conversations to compensate and feel those people were indeed more than followers or simple acquaintances. It makes you feel special, but not in a good way.

- You don't get to control when you initiate conversations. Of course, you can decide when to do such and such "converation quests", but you still have to wait for them to be available.

- When it comes to romance, especially with the live-in ones, it becomes catastrophic. Having your LI staying there at the exact same place all day long and serving you the exact same sentence for what's supposed to be three years is beyond unrealistic. Frankly, if my s.o. behaved like that IRL, I'd have them checked into the nearest asylum pronto (or gently kicked out, because, WTF?). As it is, and for all romances, it rather feels like a one night stand when the LI decided to linger on for whatever reasons. There only are a couple "romantic" interactions outside of the bedroom.

I have no problems filling the blanks, but a little help would be nice. I wouldn't mind the same "What's up? / What's up? / Anything new? / Not much " or "Hello, love. / What's for dinner? / *kissy kiss*" or even "Sorry, not tonight" thingies repeated with three or so different lines occuring randomly. I understand there's no possibilities for infinite dialogs.

Truth is, the whole thing makes me feel very, very lonely. And sad.

Indeed, at point it made me feel that I wanted to take Merrill and get the hell out of that silent tomb of a house.
I would have also wanted to see BG like twist with marriage and possible child with the love interest to increase changes in the storyline. Instead I felt just lonely and empty in that so called "home".

[Therece]

The Conversations per Act were fine for me, I do miss the Campfire conversations with DA:O's companions, But i don't really see the point talking to someone about the same thing through the Entire game after exhausting the conversation.

Though, only real issue I personally felt with the Conversations Pre-Act was.. Did you only speak to your companion every 1-3 Years?.. I mean, That seems like a really long time to never talk to someone until you Drop in just to go. "Hey, Ya' got any Problems yet?"

[Mr.House]

I would like a combo of both. Have certain conversations happen as the story goes on like DA2 does but have other conversations happen at anytime like DAO.

Both systems on there own are flawed and horrible.

[Mr.House]

Sutekh wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

The problem with Origins is that you could conceivably exhaust all dialogue with a companion during the first time you spoke with them in camp.

True. But that could be solved by having some dialogs only pop up after a certain amount of time / certain events (the latter having been done on some occasion in DAO, IIRC)

The problem in DA2 is that it runs over a seven years period, and in these seven years, you only get to talk to your companions what three, four times?

There are several things that annoys me in the way the whole thing is handled in DA2 (and Awakening, btw):

- Party banters are wonderful, but almost always feel like you're never part of them. In fact, I sometimes even felt like a dirty eavesdropper. It was true in DAO too, but you could in turn have private conversations to compensate and feel those people were indeed more than followers or simple acquaintances. It makes you feel special, but not in a good way.

Uh wut? My Hawke would chime in banter a lot which made the banter and the characters more real for me then DAO by far.

[Mr.House]

Therece wrote...

The Conversations per Act were fine for me, I do miss the Campfire conversations with DA:O's companions, But i don't really see the point talking to someone about the same thing through the Entire game after exhausting the conversation.

Though, only real issue I personally felt with the Conversations Pre-Act was.. Did you only speak to your companion every 1-3 Years?.. I mean, That seems like a really long time to never talk to someone until you Drop in just to go. "Hey, Ya' got any Problems yet?"

Headcanon it. You had to do the same with DAO since some characters like Leli would talk about events you never see but you shared. If you think your Hawke only talked to your party meembers that little, then your Hawke did, mine did not since I headcanon  alot when it comes to RPGs, more so Bioware games.

Modifié par Mr.House, 01 juillet 2011 - 05:10 .

[Sutekh]

Ukki wrote...

Indeed, at point it made me feel that I wanted to take Merrill and get the hell out of that silent tomb of a house.
I would have also wanted to see BG like twist with marriage and possible child with the love interest to increase changes in the storyline. Instead I felt just lonely and empty in that so called "home".

Speaking of which, since you can't initiate dialog, you can't even break up once you reach a certain point, which makes the whole thing even more painful and artificial, especially in rivalmance.

It all boils down to player control, really (or lack thereof).

[Mr.House]

Sutekh wrote...

Ukki wrote...

Indeed, at point it made me feel that I wanted to take Merrill and get the hell out of that silent tomb of a house.
I would have also wanted to see BG like twist with marriage and possible child with the love interest to increase changes in the storyline. Instead I felt just lonely and empty in that so called "home".

Speaking of which, since you can't initiate dialog, you can't even break up once you reach a certain point, which makes the whole thing even more painful and artificial, especially in rivalmance.

It all boils down to player control, really (or lack thereof).

You can break up with Izzy, Fenris and Anders. As for artifical. I don't get that feeling at all since my characters don't see the person they like as a booty call then dump them, nor do they rush into the romance.

[whykikyouwhy]

Hmm.
I found some of the fireside chats in DA:O far too lengthy (Wynne loved to gab and scold my Warden).

I found the DA2 to have wonderful character development and conversations that seemed time well for their placement in the overall game (bugs aside).

As for Bioware not listening to the consumer, I figure it this way - they're giving us games that tell a story of their crafting. That story won't be exactly what we want at all times and they may not use tools that we care for in the process. There is no way to please everyone and maybe not even the perceived majority in order to tell that story. I may not agree with everything they do, but I want to remain along for the ride.

[Therece]

It always feels weird to Canon things before me, Though i am happily doing that for my Character After she leaves Kirkwall, But i doubt my character would be all that concerned with her "friends" anywho, so it would make sense for her to not have talked to them for long-periods of time.


Still, The game feels more organized when seperated into Acts, but some Banter with the Companion here and there wouldn't be too bad.

[Sutekh]

Mr.House wrote...
Uh wut? My Hawke would chime in banter a lot which made the banter and the characters more real for me then DAO by far.

I've done six playthroughs. All of them added, I'd count maybe two or three occasions when Hawke got to chime in (and honestly, only one that I recall). That's two or three more than in DAO, granted, but that's not a lot.

I've never played a warrior, though, and only males. So maybe F!Hawke or Warrior!Hawke gets to intervene more?

You can break up with Izzy, Fenris and Anders. As for artifical. I don't get that feeling at all since my characters don't see the person they like as a booty call then dump them, nor do they rush into the romance.

Past a certain point, no, you can't. You'd need to initiate dialog for that, or at least, have a dialog, and you don't (unless you count the final conversation, at the very end of the game, when it doesn't really count anymore).

As for the artificial feeling, if you fine natural to:

- not have anything hinting at "this is my love" other than a bedroom detour at the start, and a single cutscene (Isabela/Anders) or making up dialog (Fenris) afterwards (which were all great, mind).

- Have your s.o. standing there doing nothing each time you're home.

- Enduring the same bitter remark, again and again, if you're in a rivalmance from a live-in LI without any possibility to reply, or placate them, or justify yourself, or tell them that if they're not happy, they can always hit the road

then your definition of "natural" is clearly not the same as mine.

Don't misunderstand me, I loved DA2 romances when they were actually there. Flirting, bedroom cutscenes, all those, great. The whole rest of the time? Nearly inexistent.

Modifié par Sutekh, 01 juillet 2011 - 05:27 .

[Mr.House]

Sutekh wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
Uh wut? My Hawke would chime in banter a lot which made the banter and the characters more real for me then DAO by far.

I've done six playthroughs. All of them added, I'd count maybe two or three occasions when Hawke got to chime in (and honestly, only one that I recall). That's two or three more than in DAO, granted, but that's not a lot.

I've never played a warrior, though, and only males. So maybe F!Hawke or Warrior!Hawke gets to intervene more?

You can break up with Izzy, Fenris and Anders. As for artifical. I don't get that feeling at all since my characters don't see the person they like as a booty call then dump them, nor do they rush into the romance.

Past a certain point, no, you can't. You'd need to initiate dialog for that, or at least, have a dialog, and you don't (unless you count the final conversation, at the very end of the game, when it doesn't really count anymore).

As for the artificial feeling, if you fine natural to:

- not have anything hinting at "this is my love" other than a bedroom detour at the start, and a single cutscene (Isabela/Anders) or making up dialog (Fenris) afterwards (which were all great, mind).

- Have your s.o. standing there doing nothing each time you're home.

- Enduring the same bitter remark, again and again, if you're in a rivalmance from a live-in LI without any possibility to reply, or placate them, or justify yourself, or tell them that if they're not happy, they can always hit the road

then your definition of "natural" is clearly not the same as mine.

Don't misunderstand me, I loved DA2 romances when they were actually there. Flirting, bedroom cutscenes, all those, great. The whole rest of the time? Nearly inexistent.

Well I tend to headcanon so I fill the gaps, and I do it with all romances in Bioware games except for BG2.

Also the Warden never chimed during banter at all,you where just eavedropping on them, Leli and Alistair can bash morri and the Warden does nothing O_o

Yet when peopel talk about Hawkes romance in DA2 99% of the time Hawke will say something. Banter in DA2 was a improvment but it still has more work to be done, same with interections.

[por favor]

Therece wrote...

Still, The game feels more organized when seperated into Acts, but some Banter with the Companion here and there wouldn't be too bad.

The way the game was organized into Acts was an absolute nightmare. If you forget to do something in Act I, that's it. You're f&cked. You better pray you have a pre-save.

I was trying to collect messages in each Act for the Archaeologist achievement and by the time I got to Act III, I realized I accidently missed a message in the first Act. 

I had to start ALL OVER from the first Act. It's just a complete nightmare if you're doing achievements, collecting items, etc.

I had to make a list of everything I needed to do in each Act before I could proceed to the next. I had to write down everywhere I needed to go, everything I needed to find, everyone I needed to talk to, etc.

It was such a nightmare. It made playing the game feel like a chore.

[hoorayforicecream]

por favor wrote...

Clearly these forums and other websites constitute as enough of a "majority" if BioWare is willing to make changes based on what these people ask for. After the amount of backlash DA:II got on here and many other websites, Laidlaw stated he will be taking said criticisms into consideration for the next installment.

Bioware never made changes based on what these people ask for. Bioware made changes based on all of the feedback that they ask for, which includes stuff from the forums, from focus groups, research, metrics, and a lot of other things. There's far too few people on the forums to constitute a meaningful majority. They collect feedback from the forums, just like they collect feedback from other sources, and if enough of the feedback suggests something is a problem, then they address it. 

When did these people EVER ask for dialogue restrictions? When was freedom of dialogue EVER a significant problem?

They didn't. That feedback came from elsewhere. As I said, the forums are not the only source of feedback. They are simply one avenue.

People wanted more interactive, lifelike characters, and DAO did suffer quite a bit from "talking head" syndrome. When it comes to companion interaction, there's some very real tradeoffs involved. DA2 allowed them to us a lot more cinematic techniques in their storytelling. You'd have scenes like Fenris throwing a bottle of wine, or Isabela fighting with men at the bar, Merrill breaking the *spoiler*, Aveline and *spoiler* angrily getting in each others' faces. In DAO, what you'd have seen instead is a lot of alternating over-the-shoulder shots, close ups of their faces, and occasionally walking off camera and walking back on. 

Characters touch, move, and interact in the DA2 scenes, when all they do is *talk* in DAO. It's a huge difference in quality, but it comes at the expense of quantity. Perhaps they didn't hit that sweet spot between the two this game, but I'm much more pleased with the quality of interactions in DA2 than I was with DAO.

[Therece]

Ah, Aside from Quests you forgot to do.

The Acts would've been a problem with Dragon Age: Origins, But being stuck in a City 90% made the Acts acceptable for myself personally.

And i just realized last night i forgot to do abunch of Side-quests.. So at-least i can do another Play-through with some fun additions? I never played the games for Achievements, Merely to see what happens and where the Game-led me. So i often miss Quests without caring much for them.. Though i was pissed when i missed Fenris's Book in Act: 2.

[alex90c]

Therece wrote...

Ah, Aside from Quests you forgot to do.

The Acts would've been a problem with Dragon Age: Origins, But being stuck in a City 90% made the Acts acceptable for myself personally.

And i just realized last night i forgot to do abunch of Side-quests.. So at-least i can do another Play-through with some fun additions? I never played the games for Achievements, Merely to see what happens and where the Game-led me. So i often miss Quests without caring much for them.. Though i was pissed when i missed Fenris's Book in Act: 2.

The quests of Dragon Age 2 are pretty much just giving you excuses to go to a recycled environment to kill a few waves of mercenaries/slavers/spiders/skeleton archers so I'd hardly say you were missing out on much by not completing them.

[Tirfan]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Characters touch, move, and interact in the DA2 scenes, when all they do is *talk* in DAO. It's a huge difference in quality, but it comes at the expense of quantity. Perhaps they didn't hit that sweet spot between the two this game, but I'm much more pleased with the quality of interactions in DA2 than I was with DAO.

Soo.. you think that the look of the scenes were more important than the actual content? Because, I honestly couldn't care less if the characters interact with anyways when they only talk about one or two things and say about 6 lines about those/act. Because I really would prefer cutting down the cinematics and having some actually meaningful conversations with interesting content and things that would add depth to the characters rather than Fenris throwing a bottle to the wall and moaning about how he was a slave. and doing something different in the next act and moaning about how he was a slave.

[Therece]

alex90c wrote...



The quests of Dragon Age 2 are pretty much just giving you excuses to go to a recycled environment to kill a few waves of mercenaries/slavers/spiders/skeleton archers so I'd hardly say you were missing out on much by not completing them.

True, But i would enjoy doing quests like where you encounter Charade.

[por favor]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Bioware never made changes based on what these people ask for.

When did I say that BioWare made changes based on what these people asked for? I said quite the opposite, actually.

There's far too few people on the forums to constitute a meaningful majority.

When did I say that the people on the forums = the majority? I never said that. Read the part where I said "and other websites" which includes IGN, Gamespot, and the plethora of other websites out there. Also, do not tell me the Internet community is not the largest source of feedback that BioWare has access to because that is absolute sh*t.

They didn't. That feedback came from elsewhere. As I said, the forums are not the only source of feedback. They are simply one avenue.

I never said the forums were the only source of feedback. Re-read my post.

You'd have scenes like Fenris throwing a bottle of wine, or Isabela fighting with men at the bar, Merrill breaking the *spoiler*, Aveline and *spoiler* angrily getting in each others' faces. In DAO, what you'd have seen instead is a lot of alternating over-the-shoulder shots, close ups of their faces, and occasionally walking off camera and walking back on. Characters touch, move, and interact in the DA2 scenes, when all they do is *talk* in DAO.

How animated the characters are when they speak is a completely different topic. It has nothing to do with the freedom to initiate conversation and especially has nothing to do with long, drawn-out conversations.

I agree that the characters in DA:O could have been a bit more animated during their conversations, but as I said, that is a completely different topic.

Modifié par por favor, 01 juillet 2011 - 09:46 .

[SafetyShattered]

I most say i respectfully disagree with you Gaider. I liked the characters in DA2. much more then the characters I have met in a lot of other games. But in DAO I felt vastly closer to them. You know it should be an option for the player to talk to their characters as much as they want, considering they actually payed for it. Just saying. And also I don't know how you react with people in real life but most people talk to their friends more then three times every couple years. I loved spending my time speaking with my characters in DAO about every little thing I wanted. It made the characters feel much more lifelike and it made me feel like I was in more control of my character and his action. Rather then DA2's style go do this mission....ok talk to the character......5 hours later they want to talk again.... it's much harder for me to feel closer to a character..especially on a romantic level when I can only talk to them once every few hours. In games like DA and ME I should be the one in control of my character, and should have to wait for the game to tell me when I can and can't talk to MY party members. I never once felt like I was rambling with my characters in DAO. Me and my friends have some pretty stupid conversations...just because we feel close. I don't find it unrealistic to talk about weird things...doesn't everyone talk about pretty strange things at some point in their life. So yes David Gaider I can understand in a way what you are saying....but I feel like your answer was basically translated to "**** our fans that dislike our changes.....they're stupid and don't deserve to disagree with me because I am obviously always right." Probably a bit over the top...but thats how I feel at this point.

[Xalen]

Tirfan wrote...
Soo.. you think that the look of the scenes were more important than the actual content? Because, I honestly couldn't care less if the characters interact with anyways when they only talk about one or two things and say about 6 lines about those/act. Because I really would prefer cutting down the cinematics and having some actually meaningful conversations with interesting content and things that would add depth to the characters rather than Fenris throwing a bottle to the wall and moaning about how he was a slave. and doing something different in the next act and moaning about how he was a slave.

It's not just the "look of scenes" though. Cinematic conversations can
actually
allow for deeper characterization, what's with "show, don't tell". A game is as much visual media as any other, so to limit this potential seems a bit silly to me. Sometimes the 5-second animation can tell more about a character than 10-minutes long conversation: it's body language, facial expressions (very well done in DA2), all that stuff we perceive and process unconsciously - in real life it may have a greater impact on our perception of the person we are talking to then actual words that this person is saying. So to include this things in a game that supposed to immerse the player makes much more sense than not to.

Like I said, DA2 is certainly not perfect in how the dialogue is handled, but I think to include such features was certainly a step in the right direction

Modifié par Xalen, 01 juillet 2011 - 09:54 .