85 réponses à ce sujet

[Chiramu]

Addai67 wrote...

Xalen wrote...

It's not just the "look of scenes" though. Cinematic conversations can
actually
allow for deeper characterization, what's with "show, don't tell".

Can, perhaps.  In my experience, they don't.  Maybe if these were live actors, but watching awkward pixel animation is no more immersive to me than listening to the voice acting and mentally filling in the images.  Probably less.

You "show, don't tell" because a character should only speak when there is no other option. 
"Actions speak louder than words" as the saying goes.

[FieryDove]

Erode_The_Soul wrote...

That's one of the things that bugged me most about this game. I loved the characters, but hated how Bioware restricted our interactions with them. And it really makes me sad to see that Gaider quote that all but completely dashes any hope to return to longer conversations with companions

Yes, I miss the laundry lists...a lot.

Also a KoD or HoD after bad events happens from Li's. (kiss on demand, hug on demand)

Sigh

[por favor]

Xalen wrote...

No, companion dialogues in DAO were not cinematic. Companion stood in front of PC and talked.

That really depends on what you consider cinematic. Because the Landsmeet dialogue is subjected to one particular stage and the characters are a lot more interactive in it, I don't see how that isn't a cinematic scene.

Granted, they're not throwing bottles around and running in circles, but that doesn't change the fact it's a cinematic scene. If you believe they should have been more animated in those scenes, that's an entirely different problem.

[por favor]

Chiramu wrote...

Long rambling conversations aren't natural; it's far more enjoyable for the writers to achieve a conversation between two or more people that feels very natural and something that you could possibly hear in real life.

People you're friends with don't go rambling on to you. Your companions in Dragon Age are suppose to be your friends, so like in real life, less is more.

I agree with David Gaider, he can write very well .

I'd have to disagree with that. I don't consider Lelilana and I talking about shoes "rambling," and I don't consider Morrigan and I being cynical b*tches together "rambling." I can safely say I've had plenty of "rambling" conversations with my friends in real life.

We talk for ages about life, relationships, shoes, people, regrets, plans for the future, sex, and all the other things that the companions talk about. I'd hardly consider that "unnatural."

[Xalen]

por favor wrote...

Xalen wrote...

No, companion dialogues in DAO were not cinematic. Companion stood in front of PC and talked.

That really depends on what you consider cinematic. Because the Landsmeet dialogue is subjected to one particular stage and the characters are a lot more interactive in it, I don't see how that isn't a cinematic scene.

Granted, they're not throwing bottles around and running in circles, but that doesn't change the fact it's a cinematic scene. If you believe they should have been more animated in those scenes, that's an entirely different problem.

That's why I highlightted "companion". Perhaps I should've written "camp dialogue" or something. Landsmeet was a cinematic scene more or less, but one-on-one conversations with companions that DG is addressing were not.

Modifié par Xalen, 02 juillet 2011 - 12:43 .

[xkg]

Again and again it boils down to one question.
Do we want to watch a movie or play RPG game.

When I'am talking with my companions i want to immerse myself into that conversation, think about what they are saying, and talk talk talk with them. Not to hear a few words and watch them throwing bottles, making stupid facial expressions etc... etc...

There are many games out there (ie.most of the modern adventure games) with heavy focus on cinematics. Why do we have to pollute one more game genre with this.

[Xalen]

Aaaaand again:

Xalen wrote...

Well, to each their own. I was just saying that opposing cinematic dialogue scenes in general on the basis that they are somehow cutting out character-related content is a bit contradictory because they can be used to actually add such content. One can argue whether this goal was achieved with DA2 in particular. I'd say - to some extent, but there are many more people who will disagree.

Modifié par Xalen, 02 juillet 2011 - 12:50 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

It really depends on how it's done. Cinematics present a more limited scope for character interaction and depth (simple time and cost issue), but can provide much more visually engaging set piece moments that add to character depth. There are times when this works and when it doesn't.

That's all there is to it.

Ideally, I want cinematics not to work in the case of recreating and imitating film. At best, you get a game version of movies. At worst, you get a game version of D grade TV dramas.

I want cinematics and cinematic elements to be adapted and synergised (buzzword, I kno rite?) with the gameplay to provide for an experience unique to games. Valve and 2K Marin are very good at this.

The route that Rockstar and BioWare seem to be going is trying to copy paste cinematics from film rather than leverage the tecniques to better fit the medium. IMO. Though, I must say, I don't entirely mind Mr. Epler's love of the hitchcock/Dolly zoom.



I think that the Landsmeet was a pretty good way to go about it as far as a traditional RPG structure went. Aside from the fact that you had to argue your case with real consequences for success or failure, you had a variety of points to make and your success was modified by whether you actually did things in the game to help/hinder your cause. By that measure, the Landsmeet was less a cinematic to watch and one to interact with. It was an extension of gameplay.

You also achieved to spotlight the emotions of characters by a simple make point -> Bannorn agrees -> Loghain angry sequence.

<start off topic rant>
I think the Neverwinter Nights 2 Ember Trial certainly wouldn't have worked on the same level without cinematics. Such a shame it all led to the same conclusion. FFS man, it was one of the best set piece debates/non-combat sequences in any RPG ever... First time I ever thought out a base strategy to "fight" in a non combat area. Clicking on the skill checks weren't always good and you didn't always want to succeed... You actually needed to form a cohesive argument and your previous actions made a big impact on how the jury saw you. Makes Landsmeet look simple in comparison. FFS.... such a great sequence... ruined by the "but thou must have a trial by fire!" schtick.
<end off topic rant>

Now, whether you still got that to the same degree or whether it was too focused on watching rather than interacting in Dragon Age 2 is debatable.

But insofar as the "show, not tell" aspects, I redirect you to my "Why Gameplay is Important for Storytelling" blog entry.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 02 juillet 2011 - 01:39 .

[por favor]

Xalen wrote...

That's why I highlightted "companion". Perhaps I should've written "camp dialogue" or something. Landsmeet was a cinematic scene more or less, but one-on-one conversations with companions that DG is addressing were not.

You mean one-on-one conversations? I see what you mean.

In one particular scene when you enter Denerim, the dog runs off and comes back with a young boy. You then initiate a "conversation" with the dog about how he can't have the boy.

So the dog isn't just sitting there and staring at you. Like hoorayforicecream mentioned about DA:II companions walking off/on camera and actually doing something with an object, this dog was doing the same thing.

It was moving, barking, and responding to what you were saying...so I don't really understand why the same can't be done for talking companions. Why can't we have certain cut-scenes where the humans are moving, speaking, and responding to what you are saying?

This does not make sense to me.

[por favor]

xkg wrote...

Again and again it boils down to one question.
Do we want to watch a movie or play RPG game.

When I'am talking with my companions i want to immerse myself into that conversation, think about what they are saying, and talk talk talk with them. Not to hear a few words and watch them throwing bottles, making stupid facial expressions etc... etc...

There are many games out there (ie.most of the modern adventure games) with heavy focus on cinematics. Why do we have to pollute one more game genre with this.

This is exactly how I feel. I don't want to interact with my companions through cut-scenes like some sort of movie. I really don't care about them throwing bottles and jumping around so much that I'd want that. 

Most people in real life, during a casual conversation, sit there and talk. They don't hop around and throw things. So I really don't mind just sitting there and talking to them like I do with people in real life.

It makes the conversation feel more natural when your interaction isn't being controlled so strictly.

At least for me it's that way. 

[DA_GamerGal]

Sutekh wrote...

- not have anything hinting at "this is my love" other than a bedroom detour at the start, and a single cutscene (Isabela/Anders) or making up dialog (Fenris) afterwards (which were all great, mind).

- Have your s.o. standing there doing nothing each time you're home.

- Enduring the same bitter remark, again and again, if you're in a rivalmance from a live-in LI without any possibility to reply, or placate them, or justify yourself, or tell them that if they're not happy, they can always hit the road

Don't misunderstand me, I loved DA2 romances when they were actually there. Flirting, bedroom cutscenes, all those, great. The whole rest of the time? Nearly inexistent.

This! 

I would have also liked the party-banter to actually include Hawke... be more interactive. 

I also think the conversations with Hawke's companions were to infrequent in general... I have a very good imagination and have no problem with 'filling-in-the blanks', but there were/are just way too many gaps.

I hope that the DA team do manage to find that middle ground between DA:O and DA2, for the next installment.