182 réponses à ce sujet

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

jamesp81 wrote...

There are only a few actual literary plotlines that have ever been written.  The only thing that changes are the settings and the names of the characters.

There is a reason why the same stories keep getting told over and over.  On some level, what human beings like in terms of storytelling is written into our genetic code.  You can't step TOO far out of the comfort zone, lest people lose interest.

I think the whole "there are only X number of stories" argument holds about as much water as saying that all paintings look the same if you look at them from far enough away. There are plenty of stories that are in fact told over and over, but there are even more that aren't told or told only rarely. More to the point, however, Bioware doesn't dip as far into the well of possible stories as they should, despite the fact that they clearly can.

Take Mass Effect 2 - there were plenty of interesting, unconventional stories in there. You had a thief in mourning setting up a heist to get closure for the death of her lover, a scientist coming to grips with the consequences of his discoveries, a young woman learning about her recently deceased father's war crimes and putting her citizenship on the line to preserve his reputation, and all sorts of interesting stuff like that. The dissapointing element of that game's storytelling is that all this interesting stuff took a back seat to a somewhat questionable "go and kill this thing" sort of story. There was also a cool dirty dozen sort of story that was clearly part of the concept but never showed up in the game. It would be great if this sort of thing was more central to future Bioware games. Of course, ME3 makes more sense as a more traditional sort of story, but in the future it would be nice to see this sort of innovative narrative taking the center stage that it deserves.

Or take the current non-Bioware story that covers a lot of the same ground (well-written genre stories) that Bioware tends to cover - Witcher 2. That story has three main threads. You have your Game of Thrones political machinations, your amnesiac recovering his memories sory, and your complex love story. These are things that games often include, but frequently do so poorly and generally don't make the main plot. The thing that made Witcher 2 work is because each of these three main elements could be favorably compared to any other game that uses them (and a surprising amount of literature, TV, movies, etc) and that they took center stage, which is very much an unusual move for a game to make. So you've got a story that is steeped in fantasy genre tropes but uses them to tell a story that's different and arguably more mature than your standard quest narrative. It would be cool to see Bioware doing this sort of thing more often.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

leggywillow wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
Paragraphs like this one:

"The first pair of open shutters he saw and Fenris dived through. He
landed in a kitchen filled with the smell of baking bread, and a human
woman screamed as he rolled to his feet. No doubt the sight of an elf in
skintight armor, carrying a blade almost as large as himself, wasn’t a
welcome sight. He got to his feet and noticed the surprisingly comely
woman, dressed in a nightgown that revealed more of her cleavage than
she no doubt expected, pressing against the wall."

You don't want the people who wrote that paragraph writing your game

Hmm, that's an interesting blanket statement to make.  David Gaider is the one who wrote Fenris' short story.  He was also the lead writer for Origins and worked on Knights of the Old Republic and Baldur's Gate, and he didn't seem to muck those up.

ipgd wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

You don't want the people who wrote that paragraph writing your game

Who was also the lead writer for DAO, so I'm not really seeing where this comes into the "change" equation.

Not
that a single paragraph of prose from an entirely different medium from
the one he primarily works in really has much bearing on a writer's
entire body of work, anyway. I've always maintained there's a
distinction between a good wordsmith and a good storyteller and the two
needn't really have much to do with eachother.

I don't think this sort of problem is confined to this sort of prose fiction - clearly something went horribly wrong in the interim period between this and this. Put it down to the George Lucas/Sakamoto effect, maybe. Plenty of
writers/authors/directors are better when they have good editors.

Modifié par DaveExclamationMarkYognaut, 01 juillet 2011 - 09:46 .

[Dangerfoot]

Are people seriously under the impression that Dragon Age 2 wasn't as good because it didn't follow some vague story formula?

Seriously? It was bad allllll on its own.

Modifié par Dangerfoot, 01 juillet 2011 - 09:49 .

[Mr.House]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Paragraphs like this one:

"The first pair of open shutters he saw and Fenris dived through. He
landed in a kitchen filled with the smell of baking bread, and a human
woman screamed as he rolled to his feet. No doubt the sight of an elf in
skintight armor, carrying a blade almost as large as himself, wasn’t a
welcome sight. He got to his feet and noticed the surprisingly comely
woman, dressed in a nightgown that revealed more of her cleavage than
she no doubt expected, pressing against the wall."

You don't want the people who wrote that paragraph writing your game

You do know David Gaider wrote that, yes? You also know what he has wrote for Bioware right?

[Mr.House]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
I don't think this sort of problem is confined to this sort of prose fiction - clearly something went horribly wrong in the interim period between this and this. Put it down to the George Lucas/Sakamoto effect, maybe. Plenty of
writers/authors/directors are better when they have good editors.

You are comparing giving a character a gift to a quest and one liners... Really?

Modifié par Mr.House, 01 juillet 2011 - 09:54 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Mr.House wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Paragraphs like this one:

"The first pair of open shutters he saw and Fenris dived through. He
landed in a kitchen filled with the smell of baking bread, and a human
woman screamed as he rolled to his feet. No doubt the sight of an elf in
skintight armor, carrying a blade almost as large as himself, wasn’t a
welcome sight. He got to his feet and noticed the surprisingly comely
woman, dressed in a nightgown that revealed more of her cleavage than
she no doubt expected, pressing against the wall."

You don't want the people who wrote that paragraph writing your game

You do know David Gaider wrote that, yes? You also know what he has wrote for Bioware right?

See my above reply - maybe he needs a better editor or something. So then it's less "you don't want David Gaider writing your game" and more "make sure that if David Gaider writes your game he has a good team including a good editor, and enough time to work."

[Dean_the_Young]

http://www.cracked.c...y-3872-bioware/

and

http://gza.gameriot...._1257581825.png

[mesmerizedish]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

I don't think this sort of problem is confined to this sort of prose fiction - clearly something went horribly wrong in the interim period between this and this.

The point you're trying to make? I don't think you made it.

[ipgd]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

I don't think this sort of problem is confined to this sort of prose fiction - clearly something went horribly wrong in the interim period between this and this. Put it down to the George Lucas/Sakamoto effect, maybe. Plenty of
writers/authors/directors are better when they have good editors.

David Gaider did not write the entire game. I don't know who wrote Flemeth's dialogue, but Aveline's is Luke Kristjanson's and Isabela's is Sheryl Chee's. And, no, the writing team is almost exactly the same between both games.

The only difference is that DA2 is the game people want to hate, so it gets the pleasure of having videos made cherry picking clips that are apparently supposed to prove the entire game is bad.

Modifié par ipgd, 01 juillet 2011 - 09:57 .

[Mr.House]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Paragraphs like this one:

"The first pair of open shutters he saw and Fenris dived through. He
landed in a kitchen filled with the smell of baking bread, and a human
woman screamed as he rolled to his feet. No doubt the sight of an elf in
skintight armor, carrying a blade almost as large as himself, wasn’t a
welcome sight. He got to his feet and noticed the surprisingly comely
woman, dressed in a nightgown that revealed more of her cleavage than
she no doubt expected, pressing against the wall."

You don't want the people who wrote that paragraph writing your game

You do know David Gaider wrote that, yes? You also know what he has wrote for Bioware right?

See my above reply - maybe he needs a better editor or something. So then it's less "you don't want David Gaider writing your game" and more "make sure that if David Gaider writes your game he has a good team including a good editor, and enough time to work."

Seeing as DAO had just as enough stupid dialog as DA2 and the videos you compared where hardly equal, you did not make a point at all.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Mr.House wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
I don't think this sort of problem is confined to this sort of prose fiction - clearly something went horribly wrong in the interim period between this and this. Put it down to the George Lucas/Sakamoto effect, maybe. Plenty of
writers/authors/directors are better when they have good editors.

You are comparing giving a character a gift to a quest and one liners... Really?

I'm comparing something that effectively gets you to sympathize with your token evil teammate through effective characterization and something that makes me cringe every time I hear it. For what it's worth, I recall DA:O having better (and more importantly fewer) one-liners. Although "swooping would be bad" made me cringe as well.

[hoorayforicecream]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

I don't think this sort of problem is confined to this sort of prose fiction - clearly something went horribly wrong in the interim period between this and this. Put it down to the George Lucas/Sakamoto effect, maybe. Plenty of
writers/authors/directors are better when they have good editors.

Are you seriously comparing an entire conversation to single lines taken out of context? Cherry Picking at its finest.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 01 juillet 2011 - 10:00 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

ipgd wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

I don't think this sort of problem is confined to this sort of prose fiction - clearly something went horribly wrong in the interim period between this and this. Put it down to the George Lucas/Sakamoto effect, maybe. Plenty of
writers/authors/directors are better when they have good editors.

David Gaider did not write the entire game. I don't know who wrote Flemeth's dialogue, but Aveline's is Luke Kristjanson's and Isabela's is Sheryl Chee's. And, no, the writing team is almost exactly the same between both games.

The only difference is that DA2 is the game people want to hate, so it gets the pleasure of having videos made cherry picking clips that are apparently supposed to prove the entire game is bad.

Sorry, there really isn't any context that would make those lines anything other than cringe-worthy. So you can explain it however you want (development cycle + editing would be my guess), but denying it isn't going to convince anyone.

[aries1001]

And yet, when Bioware tries do some new stuff and break away from the flowchart and the format that has served them so well during the years, people complain as well. I'm of course thinking of Dragon Age 2 in which Bioware did:

* a personal story
* framed narrative
* game is not about saving the world or joining a secret organization

This is not for discussion of DA2; it is just me saying that when Bioware tries to do some new stuff, people complain and when Bioware stick to their format, people complain too.

As for ME, as long as the story, the characters, the dialogue, the narrative are great, I don't care if Bioware uses their traditional format for telling a story. It is not how the story is, it is how the story is told that matters. It is like detective movies; Columbo or Poirot, I still enjoy watching, simply because the great way they're told. As long as ME3 is the same way, I can't or won't complain.

[Mr.House]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...
I don't think this sort of problem is confined to this sort of prose fiction - clearly something went horribly wrong in the interim period between this and this. Put it down to the George Lucas/Sakamoto effect, maybe. Plenty of
writers/authors/directors are better when they have good editors.

You are comparing giving a character a gift to a quest and one liners... Really?

I'm comparing something that effectively gets you to sympathize with your token evil teammate through effective characterization and something that makes me cringe every time I hear it. For what it's worth, I recall DA:O having better (and more importantly fewer) one-liners. Although "swooping would be bad" made me cringe as well.

No you did not, you compared a conversation with gift to a bunch of one liners, you made no point at all. The only thing you proved is that you can't prove a point. You want to compare Morrigans gift thing, compare it to something similar.

Modifié par Mr.House, 01 juillet 2011 - 10:04 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

I don't think this sort of problem is confined to this sort of prose fiction - clearly something went horribly wrong in the interim period between this and this. Put it down to the George Lucas/Sakamoto effect, maybe. Plenty of
writers/authors/directors are better when they have good editors.

Are you seriously comparing an entire conversation to single lines taken out of context? Cherry Picking at its finest.

There really isn't any context that would make "There is always a catch! Life is a catch! I would suggest you catch it while you can!" anything but cringe-worthy.

[Mr.House]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

I don't think this sort of problem is confined to this sort of prose fiction - clearly something went horribly wrong in the interim period between this and this. Put it down to the George Lucas/Sakamoto effect, maybe. Plenty of
writers/authors/directors are better when they have good editors.

Are you seriously comparing an entire conversation to single lines taken out of context? Cherry Picking at its finest.

There really isn't any context that would make "There is always a catch! Life is a catch! I would suggest you catch it while you can!" anything but cringe-worthy.

First who said that? Flemeth did. Flemeth is a snarky old woman who never makes sense, of course she is going to say things stupid like that! There is context, again you failed to prove a point, try harder.

[hoorayforicecream]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

hoorayforicecream wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

I don't think this sort of problem is confined to this sort of prose fiction - clearly something went horribly wrong in the interim period between this and this. Put it down to the George Lucas/Sakamoto effect, maybe. Plenty of
writers/authors/directors are better when they have good editors.

Are you seriously comparing an entire conversation to single lines taken out of context? Cherry Picking at its finest.

There really isn't any context that would make "There is always a catch! Life is a catch! I would suggest you catch it while you can!" anything but cringe-worthy.

There are bad lines in every game though. If you want to compare dialogue, you should be comparing the worst lines of each, rather than a 'typical' line from one to a particularly bad one from another. Otherwise all you're doing is falsely representing one over the other, and that's clearly not what you are intending, is it? 

[Rinji the Bearded]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

I don't think this sort of problem is confined to this sort of prose fiction - clearly something went horribly wrong in the interim period between this and this. Put it down to the George Lucas/Sakamoto effect, maybe. Plenty of
writers/authors/directors are better when they have good editors.

I'm not quite getting the point you're trying to make.  DAO had plenty of lines like that, so you take some of the better dialogue from the first game and comparing it to a few sparse, isolated lines from DA2 that aren't even related (ie, out of context)?  A lot of those lines aren't particularly BAD either.

[mesmerizedish]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

There really isn't any context that would make "There is always a catch! Life is a catch! I would suggest you catch it while you can!" anything but cringe-worthy.

That line is very Flemeth, though... something that wouldn't have made you cringe (and I should say that I didn't) would have been out-of-character.

[Rinji the Bearded]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...]

There really isn't any context that would make "There is always a catch! Life is a catch! I would suggest you catch it while you can!" anything but cringe-worthy.

Implying Flemeth isn't just crazy, an old hag that talks too much, et cetera.

[Dangerfoot]

Mr.House wrote...
No you did not, you compared a conversation with gift to a bunch of one liners, you made no point at all. The only thing you proved is that you can't prove a point. You want to compare Morrigans gift thing, compare it to something similar.

He was comparing dialogue to dialogue, where the dialogue took place is completely irrelevant. Dialogue is indeed similar to dialogue.

[ipgd]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

I'm comparing something that effectively gets you to sympathize with your token evil teammate through effective characterization and something that makes me cringe every time I hear it. For what it's worth, I recall DA:O having better (and more importantly fewer) one-liners. Although "swooping would be bad" made me cringe as well.

Give me a couple of hours and I guarantee you I could find enough "swooping would be bad" equivalents to shove together in a video and post it repeatedly to prove some non-existent point about how DAO is a horrible game with horrible writing and no redeemable qualities, but I won't because that would be ridiculous and make me look like an idiot.

There are as many decent dialogues in DA2 as there are dumb one liners in DAO. You notice anything that agrees with your point and throw away anything that doesn't happen to support it.

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

There really isn't any context that would make "There is always a catch! Life is a catch! I would suggest you catch it while you can!" anything but cringe-worthy.

The fact it's being said by a crazy old woman and it reinforces her image as a crazy old woman?

[Mr.House]

Dangerfoot wrote...
He was comparing dialogue to dialogue, where the dialogue took place is completely irrelevant. Dialogue is indeed similar to dialogue.

[Dangerfoot]

How is it relevant that one bit of dialogue was for a gift? It's not. You're reaching and you know it. Stop with the silly 4chan nonsense.