182 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

Dangerfoot wrote...

How is it relevant that one bit of dialogue was for a gift? It's not. You're reaching and you know it. Stop with the silly 4chan nonsense.

The conversation is about Morrigans past, which you can then give her the mirror she talked about(not the same but a look alike). Comparing that to one liners, more so out of context is stupid and not proving a point. If you can't see that, well then I don't know what to say.

Modifié par Mr.House, 01 juillet 2011 - 10:15 .

[upsettingshorts]

You guys just don't get it. Context is always irrelevant if it either explicitly contradicts or implicitly fails to support your argument.

The BSN told me.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

RinjiRenee wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

I don't think this sort of problem is confined to this sort of prose fiction - clearly something went horribly wrong in the interim period between this and this. Put it down to the George Lucas/Sakamoto effect, maybe. Plenty of
writers/authors/directors are better when they have good editors.

I'm not quite getting the point you're trying to make.  DAO had plenty of lines like that, so you take some of the better dialogue from the first game and comparing it to a few sparse, isolated lines from DA2 that aren't even related (ie, out of context)?  A lot of those lines aren't particularly BAD either.

As I said, there were definitely some cringe lines in DA:O (this one I remember making me facepalm) but those aren't quite as bad as those. Or this.

[Dangerfoot]

Mr.House wrote...

The conversation is about Morrigans past, which you can then give her the mirror she talked about(not the same but a look alike). Comparing that to one liners, more so out of context is stupid and not proving a ponit. If you can't see that, well then I don't know what to say.

You said he's comparing totally unalike things.

He's comparing dialogue. Both things are dialogue, obviously.

When I noted that, you gave me some silly /headdesk thing like I'm saying something totally retarded.

Dialogue IS similar to dialogue. The fact that it's a gift scene makes absolutely no difference. They are samples of dialoge. If you'd like him to compare a longer sample from DA2, because comparing out-of-context snippets is unfair, I'm sure he'd be happy to link the scene where you tell Cullen that Anders is planning on killing the Grand Cleric and Cullen says he will keep his eyes open while Anders protests right next to you.

[tobynator89]

you're complaining about cheese in bioware writing?

There is enough of that in every bioware game to kill a diary farm.

[upsettingshorts]

So your argument is:

Number of lines that don't meet your subjective, vague standard of "quality" in DA2
>
Number of lines that don't meet your subjective, vague standard of "quality" in DAO

Good for you. Others disagree. Is it your contention that your interpretation of the writing quality - as you evaluate in this thread - should be shared by others? If that is the case, you will have to come up with something more convincing than "this line I can link to annoys me more than this other line I can link to." If that isn't your contention, then I think we get your position already.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Mr.House wrote...

Dangerfoot wrote...

How is it relevant that one bit of dialogue was for a gift? It's not. You're reaching and you know it. Stop with the silly 4chan nonsense.

The conversation is about Morrigans past, which you can then give her the mirror she talked about(not the same but a look alike). Comparing that to one liners, more so out of context is stupid and not proving a point. If you can't see that, well then I don't know what to say.

A) Bad writing is bad writing. There is no context that excuses that.

However, it does not seem like you are likely to be comprehending that any time soon. Given this, I advise you to watch the video again, and look for the part where a bad line completely undermines an otherwise acceptable scene. (Hint: it happens more than once.) Also, here's a long-form bad writing example for you: http://social.biowar...index/6590216/1

[upsettingshorts]

By that logic it would be reasonable to make a direct comparison between DAO's Daveth and DA2's Anders because they are both companions.

Both may fall under an extremely broad and vague category called "companions" but they are different enough in purpose and context to make any comparisons useless, unless you have an agenda.

Kind of like comparing one liners to character development.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

So your argument is:

Number of lines that don't meet your subjective, vague standard of "quality" in DA2
>
Number of lines that don't meet your subjective, vague standard of "quality" in DAO

Good for you. Others disagree. Is it your contention that your interpretation of the writing quality - as you evaluate in this thread - should be shared by others? If that is the case, you will have to come up with something more convincing than "this line I can link to annoys me more than this other line I can link to." If that isn't your contention, then I think we get your position already.

is not a good counter-argument, sorry.

[ipgd]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

As I said, there were definitely some cringe lines in DA:O (this one I remember making me facepalm) but those aren't quite as bad as those. Or this.

Ignoring the fact Anders's romance lines are deliberately cheesy in order to invoke recognition with the standard romance tropes his arc later deconstructs, you're still drawing ridiculous comparisons.

DAO is the game you want to like so you imagine it having significantly better dialogue than it actually does. DA2 is the game you want to hate so you remember and bandy about cherry picked examples to support an erroneous conclusion.

Modifié par ipgd, 01 juillet 2011 - 10:25 .

[upsettingshorts]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

A) Bad writing is bad writing.

This is a vague, subjective evaluation with no set standards, no explicit method of qualification, and no suggested improvements.

In other words:  As a criticism it is utterly worthless and impossible to substantiate.

Here's a hypothetical example.  If a line is corny, but intended to be corny, is that bad writing? 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 juillet 2011 - 10:24 .

[upsettingshorts]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

is not a good counter-argument, sorry.

My counterargument is that your position is too vague and shallow to be useful to anyone, least of all BioWare writers, beyond expressing your own personal disappointment.

[Dangerfoot]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

This is a vague, subjective evaluation with no set standards, no explicit method of qualification, and no suggested improvements.

In other words:  As a criticism it is utterly worthless and impossible to substantiate.

Here's a hypothetical example.  If a line is corny, but intended to be corny, is that bad writing? 

So you're saying I was supposed to be rolling my eyes and swearing the whole time Flemmeth was talking?

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

ipgd wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

As I said, there were definitely some cringe lines in DA:O (this one I remember making me facepalm) but those aren't quite as bad as those. Or this.

Ignoring the fact Anders's romance lines are deliberately cheesy in order to invoke recognition with the standard romance tropes his arc later deconstructs, you're still drawing ridiculous comparisons.

DAO is the game you want to like so you imagine it having significantly better dialogue than it actually does. DA2 is the game you want to hate so you remember and bandy about cherry picked examples to support an erroneous conclusion.

Ah, so DA2 is in fact a tongue-in-cheek deconstruction of cheesy romance dreck, failed attempts at humor by video game writers, and so on. So it's like the Duke Nukem of fantasy RPGs

(Honestly, I don't think that DA:O is exactly Psychonauts, either. But the writing there gets the job done, and clearly doesn't in DA2).

[upsettingshorts]

What I'm saying is:

If you were, it is potentially intentional. If it was, then a useful argument would be criticizing Flemeth being portrayed in this way, and why you believe it either contradicts or violates her character as presented in DAO and in other places in DA2.Or it in some way doesn't advance the character as the writers seem to intend.  If you simply disagree with where the writers took the character, even that is a different argument entirely.  Then - given any of these genuinely substantial criticisms, an actual discussion could take place.

If you were not and the lines gave you a different impression, you could contribute to such a discussion with your own interpretation.

Simply stating that you didn't like the lines, view them as some kind of evidence of a loss of ability on behalf of the writers, or that they were corny - is useful only to express that you have this position. It is not convincing in relaying that impression to others - only encouraging others who simply agree with it or disagree with it to say "Yes, I agree" or "No I do not" and lacks the substance required - such as one that would result from an actual discussion about characterization - to have a useful debate. It literally will - and has - devolved into "No u."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 juillet 2011 - 10:33 .

[mesmerizedish]

Dangerfoot wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

This is a vague, subjective evaluation with no set standards, no explicit method of qualification, and no suggested improvements.

In other words:  As a criticism it is utterly worthless and impossible to substantiate.

Here's a hypothetical example.  If a line is corny, but intended to be corny, is that bad writing? 

So you're saying I was supposed to be rolling my eyes and swearing the whole time Flemmeth was talking?

Yes! You finally get it!

[ipgd]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Ah, so DA2 is in fact a tongue-in-cheek deconstruction of cheesy romance dreck, failed attempts at humor by video game writers, and so on. So it's like the Duke Nukem of fantasy RPGs

No, but Anders's romance is. But what's the fun in thinking about how things are presented when you can just take everything at face value in order to amass as many examples as possible to confirm your preconceived opinions?

(Honestly, I don't think that DA:O is exactly Psychonauts, either. But the writing there gets the job done, and clearly doesn't in DA2).

Your arguments are specious and do not satisfactorily support or prove your central thesis.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

My counterargument is that your position is...expressing your own personal disappointment.

You figured out that I was dissappointed by the bad writing in DA2! Good job!

Of course, if I did want to give constructive criticism, I'd give the following:

1) Get a better editor.
2) If you want to attempt humor, make sure your writers can write humor.
3) Don't write characters around the romance subplots.

[tobynator89]

people! for the last time!

Your! Milage! May! Vary!

http://tvtropes.org/...i.php/Main/YMMV

[ipgd]

MANY POSTS

Modifié par ipgd, 01 juillet 2011 - 11:01 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Dangerfoot wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

This is a vague, subjective evaluation with no set standards, no explicit method of qualification, and no suggested improvements.

In other words:  As a criticism it is utterly worthless and impossible to substantiate.

Here's a hypothetical example.  If a line is corny, but intended to be corny, is that bad writing? 

So you're saying I was supposed to be rolling my eyes and swearing the whole time Flemmeth was talking?

Yes! You finally get it!

You'll have to pardon me for taking the argument that they (intentionally) wrote Flemeth as corny comic relief with a grain of salt.

[ipgd]

HNNGHGHHH

Modifié par ipgd, 01 juillet 2011 - 11:02 .

[hoorayforicecream]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Ah, so DA2 is in fact a tongue-in-cheek deconstruction of cheesy romance dreck, failed attempts at humor by video game writers, and so on. So it's like the Duke Nukem of fantasy RPGs

(Honestly, I don't think that DA:O is exactly Psychonauts, either. But the writing there gets the job done, and clearly doesn't in DA2).

Objection, Reducto ad absurdum. You're trying to take a single part of a much larger story and conflating that with the entirety of the game. You couldn't be purposely trying to misrepresent the game for your own purposes, could you?

[Mr.House]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

(Honestly, I don't think that DA:O is exactly Psychonauts, either. But the writing there gets the job done, and clearly doesn't in DA2).

In your opinion.

[Rinji the Bearded]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Ah, so DA2 is in fact a tongue-in-cheek deconstruction of cheesy romance dreck, failed attempts at humor by video game writers, and so on. So it's like the Duke Nukem of fantasy RPGs

(Honestly, I don't think that DA:O is exactly Psychonauts, either. But the writing there gets the job done, and clearly doesn't in DA2).

Anders' romance dialogue was meant to incite the stereotypical, idealistic and over-the-top feelings of romance because he was a romantic character, in the broader sense of the word.  Everything about his beliefs were extremely idealistic and romantic, so this came out in the "cheesey" romance dialogue he throws at you.  And look where his idealism got him in the end -- deconstruction.

Just because you were off-put or sickened by his dialogue does not mean that it was bad writing -- in fact, it achieved the very goal that was intended.