182 réponses à ce sujet

[Dangerfoot]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

So your standard of evidence is they have to come out and explain their intent?

Then mine is that they have to come out and say, "No, we weren't trying to do anything.  We just suck" to justify yours.

Compelling. 

Luckily that's not how logic works.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Dangerfoot wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Well they tried new thing with Dragon Age 2 and a lot of people hated it( not one of them).

So I guess that's why they will stick with same formula.

Haha, no one hated Dragon Age 2 based on the fact that they didn't use their forumula.

The lack of a proper journey is what kept it from coming close to the first for me.

Going to more than one city and a few outlying places would have been nice. 

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dangerfoot wrote...
There's just no context to support that Bioware parodied bad writing and weak romance plots. You can assume that, but that doesn't make it "obvious" as a couple of you seem to think it is. That makes it your assumption, which you are welcome to show interviews supporting, or something, whatever you think will prove that. But you look silly if you just come in acting like your totally fringe assumption is law.

So your standard of evidence is they have to come out and explicitly explain their intent?

Then mine is that they have to come out and say, "No, we weren't trying to do anything.  We just suck" to justify yours.

Compelling. 

I'm certainly not going to abandon my "assumptions" for yours. 

Do you also assume that Stephanie Meyers is a genius barring evidence that Twilight is not also clever satire?

[Reapinger]

Nuances of difference like character development and choice make the series unique and compelling. Just because apples and oranges are similar in the sense that they are both grown on fruit trees does not make them taste the same or have the same texture, etc.

[GunMoth]

The thing is, its not a flowchart that is specific to Bioware. Its something present in all forms of media and entertainment.

Zelda, Star Wars, Transformers, Pokemon, Tales of Vesperia, Dragon Quest, Fallout, to name a few. (I should make a long list some day)

It's called "rise to power" or "hero's call". The hero is an every day "guy" that the audience can project themselves onto. It gives the audience the ability to root for the underdog when they're faced with almost impossible odds.

The hero has to rally up some unlikely friends along the way (Han Solo, Brock and Misty who are both gym leaders, giant robots etc. etc.) Those friends most often represent a different aspect of the main character's personality. They will often times find love along the way. This was a format developed originally by Plato, and later worked its way into Carl Jung's literature.

I don't think this format should be abolished as it is a good way to easily write a story. (Its kind of like training wheels). However, I do think creating a narrative can be approached in many different ways. :3

[upsettingshorts]

Dangerfoot wrote...

Luckily that's not how logic works.

Perhaps you aren't following along, then?  I'll explain below:

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Do you also assume that Stephanie Meyers is a genius barring evidence that Twilight is not also clever satire?

I didn't choose that standard of evidence.  I asked him what it would take for him to reverse his own assumptions and interpretation, he said that it would take the BioWare writers saying in an interview that this was their intent.

If I was going to overturn my assumption/interpretation of some plot and character choices in Dragon Age 2 - such as the Anders romance for example - and accept yours and his then under the standard he outlined they would have to come out and say that they weren't trying any sort of deconstruction and just failed.

Not that I imagine you're listening at this point.  Anyone who disagrees with any specific criticisms of DA2 must wholeheartedly endorse every single aspect of the game and think BioWare and DA2 are the bestest ever.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 juillet 2011 - 01:44 .

[GunMoth]

OH! And don't forget the Wizard of Oz. 8)

[Dangerfoot]

Clearly when something seems trite and badly done, and then it has an easily foreseeable twist later, that's the deconstruction of a cliche.

Bioware is turning story-telling on its head, man!

Next up, giving Flemmeth more mystical, meaningless, high school girl poetry cliches to recite in the next game. It's going to be genius.

[upsettingshorts]

Dangerfoot wrote...

Clearly when something seems trite and badly done, and then it has an easily foreseeable twist later, that's the deconstruction of a cliche.

Clearly when I have a position on something, those who do not share in my interpretation are biased morons.  

I should belittle them with silly, cliched labels on the internet. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 juillet 2011 - 01:45 .

[Dangerfoot]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Dangerfoot wrote...

Luckily that's not how logic works.

Perhaps you aren't following along, then?  I'll explain below:

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Do you also assume that Stephanie Meyers is a genius barring evidence that Twilight is not also clever satire?

I didn't choose that standard of evidence.  I asked him what it would take for him to reverse his own assumptions and interpretation, he said that it would take the BioWare writers saying in an interview that this was their intent.

If I was going to overturn my assumption/interpretation of some plot and character choices in Dragon Age 2 - such as the Anders romance for example - and accept yours and his then under the standard he outlined they would have to come out and say that they weren't trying any sort of deconstruction and just failed.

Not that I imagine you're listening at this point.  Anyone who disagrees with any specific criticisms of DA2 must wholeheartedly endorse every single aspect of the game and think BioWare and DA2 are the bestest ever.  

Emphasis doesn't show in text so well, maybe I should have italisized.

I said, show me a link, SOMETHING, whatever you can find to prove it. Meaning ANY thing other than what your heart tells you.

And logic pretty much dictates that we don't need to prove your wacky unfounded opinions incorrect, you have the burden of proof here.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

GunMoth wrote...

Its kind of like training wheels

I think that it's about time Bioware (or at least the Mass Effect side of Bioware) took the training wheels off, at least for their next project. Mass Effect 2 really raised the bar with some of the squad missions, and I don't see any reason storytelling of that caliber can't be the focus of future games. And I don't even think the flaws in Dragon Age 2 are the result of taking the training wheels off.

[upsettingshorts]

Dangerfoot wrote...

I said, show me a link, SOMETHING, whatever you can find to prove it. Meaning ANY thing other than what your heart tells you.

I'll let ipgd do that - or link to where she's done it before - if she's in the mood.  At least with regards to Anders.

Dangerfoot wrote...

And logic pretty much dictates that we don't need to prove your wacky unfounded opinions incorrect, you have the burden of proof here.

Only because you've assumed some position of authority you have not earned.  I do not view subjective interpretations of fiction between anonymous internet posters as inherently possessing any kind of value.  And this includes my own.

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Mass Effect 2 really raised the bar with some of the squad missions, and I don't see any reason storytelling of that caliber can't be the focus of future games.

Which ME2 squad missions struck you as storytelling of a high caliber?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 juillet 2011 - 01:52 .

[ipgd]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

It would be more easy to buy the Anders romance as satire if Anders' dialogue was significantly more cheesy than the rest of the romance dialogue.

It's not satire. It is a deconstruction. There's a difference.

It is more cheesy than the rest of the romances. Isabela involves about zero drama or angst, Fenris is pathologically anti-anythingapproachingromantic, and Merrill is just awkward in a way that has more to do with her characterization than an overarching theme of her romance arc. What cheesiness they do involve is not so aggressively patterned after romance novels in the way Anders's is. It is practically hitting you over the head with it.

They all also have different writers, so I'm not sure what bearing they have on eachother.

Dangerfoot wrote...

A deconstruction. Funny, I read what you said but nothing about it informed me of this obvious deconstruction of the romance cliches that Dragon Age would NEVER use.

I did.

Fact 1: Anders's romance begins with ridiculously cheesy dialogue that aggressively recalls standard romance tropes. The most obvious example is his act I dialogue with female Hawke, where he repeatedly refers to himself as a monster and urges her to stay away from him, ala Twilight. It further draws obvious attention to the romance genre through the use of over-the-top declarations of undying love and devotion. You are given opportunities to deflect and call attention to his melodrama and cheesiness through dialogues like the much maligned, and inexplicably so, sandwhich line, which indicates that Anders's writer is critically aware of how over-the-top he is (provided you don't believe some intern snuck into the writers' room while they were all on break and inserted lines like this with no one noticing).

Fact 2: It thoroughly ****s over the idealized realization expected of these tropes in Act III. The unhealthy, self-destructive codependency of Hawke and Anders's relationship is exposed very cleary. The traits that are played as admirable in most romantic protagonists are turned around and examined on a negative level; Anders's devotions become obsessions, and he devolves into mental illness. They lose ability to communicate. Anders blackmails Hawke. Then, well, he does what he does and essentially obliterates their relationship.

It is a textbook deconstruction in the way it is handled. It sets up common tropes, and then takes them to a wildly different, more cynical conclusion than is standard for the trope.

Have you actually played through Anders's romance, or do you just have friends who link you scenes on Youtube so you can have a laugh? In its entirety it is coherent and extremely obvious.

[ipgd]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Do you also assume that Stephanie Meyers is a genius barring evidence that Twilight is not also clever satire?

Twilight is not clever satire, and neither is DA2. Twilight is not a deconstruction, either, because the tropes are played straight. It is entirely different term.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Mass Effect 2 really raised the bar with some of the squad missions, and I don't see any reason storytelling of that caliber can't be the focus of future games.

Which ME2 squad missions struck you as storytelling of a high caliber?

Legion's loyalty mission.

Mordin (scientist coming to terms with his bioweapon research), Kasumi (thief doing one last heist in order to get closure for her dead partner/lover), and Tali (young woman discovering her recently deceased father is a war criminal, and putting her citizenship on the line to hide that fact) were also standouts. I would like to see a bioware game that took that kind of storytelling even farther.

[GunMoth]

EDIT:
@EVERYONE 

Mainstream entertainment will always follow a cookie cutter format. It may be a good experience and fun to play/listen to, but the fact that the writers don't put fourth the effort to branch beyond certain literary formats is due to the company itself, not the actual writers. The amount of money it takes to make a video game is INSANE, and they need to appeal to a large audience. Therefore, by following formats you are going to upset a lot of people who are aware of creative processes.

It is lazy. A lot of publishing companies will NOT allow experimental formats that haven't been tested because it can be a waste of money. For example: When Demon's Souls was scheduled for an American release, Sony demanded that they make the game easier. From Software refused and instead got their game published by Atlus to keep the game true to its original format. If they had made the game easier, yes they may have made more money, but they would have lost their original fan base due to the change. It comes down to intention. Do you want to make a fun / beautiful / compelling game, or do you want to make a game that is easy to follow and attracts a lot of fans? Its the difference between pop music and other niche sub genres.

Bioware and EA are pretty clear with their intentions, and I expect no more or less when I give my money to a cashier. I love independent or smaller companies, but I also enjoy the more tasteless, pop-y types. :3 Its just a matter of accepting that this is the current state is, and if you truly want to make a difference, start attending PAX or finding ways to contribute to the industry rather than complaining on a forum.

Modifié par GunMoth, 02 juillet 2011 - 01:59 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

ipgd wrote...
Twilight is not a deconstruction

Really? I'm going to make an unsubstantiated claim that it is. Prove me wrong.

(Hence the problem with the "bad writing is secretly a deconstruction because I say so" argument.)

[upsettingshorts]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Legion's loyalty mission.

Ah yes, that is one of my favorites.  Though they made a mistake in declaring one option Renegade and the other Paragon, as those are biological ethics which Legion himself explicitly states do not apply to the situation.

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Really? I'm going to make an unsubstantiated claim that it is. Prove me wrong.

(Hence the problem with the "bad writing is secretly a deconstruction because I say so" argument.)

Is your standard of evidence "BioWare must explicitly state that this was their intention" as well?

Do you have specific counters for what ipgd has described?  Why go with cheesy, overly romantic tropes and then make it so the romance comes crashing down around them?  Do you have a specific alternative interpretation that applies to the romance beyond "no, it's just bad?"

Also, ipgd's claim is not unsubstantiated.  She did something called "analysis."  Unless you are claiming that her post lacks either form or substance.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 juillet 2011 - 02:05 .

[GunMoth]

tl;dr its graphics/quality vs. anything experimental unfortunately.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

GunMoth wrote...

EDIT:
@EVERYONE 

Mainstream entertainment will always follow a cookie cutter format. It may be a good experience and fun to play/listen to, but the fact that the writers don't put fourth the effort to branch beyond certain literary formats is due to the company itself, not the actual writers. The amount of money it takes to make a video game is INSANE, and they need to appeal to a large audience. Therefore, by following formats you are going to upset a lot of people who are aware of creative processes.

It is lazy. A lot of publishing companies will NOT allow experimental formats that haven't been tested because it can be a waste of money. For example: When Demon's Souls was scheduled for an American release, Sony demanded that they make the game easier. From Software refused and instead got their game published by Atlus to keep the game true to its original format. If they had made the game easier, yes they may have made more money, but they would have lost their original fan base due to the change. It comes down to intention. Do you want to make a fun / beautiful / compelling game, or do you want to make a game that is easy to follow and attracts a lot of fans? Its the difference between pop music and other niche sub genres.

Bioware and EA are pretty clear with their intentions, and I expect no more or less when I give my money to a cashier. I love independent or smaller companies, but I also enjoy the more tasteless, pop-y types. :3 Its just a matter of accepting that this is the current state is, and if you truly want to make a difference, start attending PAX or finding ways to contribute to the industry rather than complaining on a forum.

Personally, I vote with my dollars. I'm a lot more likely to buy the latest Atlus release or a Witcher game (or get Planescape: Torment off GOG, or donate to Mark Pay in exchange for The Spirit Engine 2) than I am to buy one of the more homogenous RPGs out there. But I'll buy vs. rent or borrow from a friend if I think the game does some good or interesting things narratively despite a homogenous overarching narrative, like Mass Effect 2. And *knock on wood* hopefully Mass Effect 3.

[Bogsnot1]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Anyone else see the irony in the OP linking to an old post of his to complain about repetition?

Not just that, but also that he has Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age 2 under his registered games. If he dislikes the repetatiev formula so much, why does he keep buying into it?

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Legion's loyalty mission.

Ah yes, that is one of my favorites.  Though they made a mistake in declaring one option Renegade and the other Paragon, as those are biological ethics which Legion himself explicitly states do not apply to the situation.

Yeah, I agree with that. Extra Credits suggested making both options Renegade, which is another interesting way to run it.

[ipgd]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Really? I'm going to make an unsubstantiated claim that it is. Prove me wrong.

(Hence the problem with the "bad writing is secretly a deconstruction because I say so" argument.)

It's not unsubstantiated. It is supported by the events of his character arc, which I just explained.

Twilight is not a deconstruction because it established typical romance tropes and follows them through to a genre-standard conclusion.

Anders's romance is a deconstruction because it established typical romance tropes and followed them through to a non-standard conclusion and cynically exposed the negativity of the tropes in the process.

What about Anders's romance in Act III is typical of the romance genre? By repeatedly linking it, refering to it as cheesy, and comparing it to Twilight, you've established that you'd agree that the romance begins with cheesy, overdone tropes typical of bad romance novels. Are you suggesting that it is typical of the romance genre to have the ostensibly admirable and devoted romantic protagonist later go nuts and destroy the relationship through his mental instability?

[GunMoth]

@Dave
I agree with you. tbh, I'm more interested in the actual release of ME3 than I am for the actual game.I want to see what direction they take it in. I did like parts of ME2, but I also disliked parts. I feel the same about ME1 as well.

I'm setting my standards low. It wouldn't destroy my world if the structure is exactly like ME2, but it would be a pleasant surprise if it took a new approach. I'm easily satisfied. Plus, I'm also keeping in mind that they have a LOT more to tie up in ME3 than ME2 and have *less amount of time to develop it (About the same time that DA2 was pushed out. @__@ FFF)  Still getting it at launch because either way, I need to finish the gatdamn'd story.

Edit: Also, I liked that you posted Extra Credits. Good show. :3

Modifié par GunMoth, 02 juillet 2011 - 02:18 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

ipgd wrote...
Twilight is not a deconstruction

Really? I'm going to make an unsubstantiated claim that it is. Prove me wrong.

(Hence the problem with the "bad writing is secretly a deconstruction because I say so" argument.)

To say Twilight is a deconstruction would be like saying Watchmen is a deconstruction of super hero comic books that already deconstruct themselves, according to your logic.  Perhaps you should check your definition of a deconstruction.  We do not need evidence to prove Anders' romance is a deconstruction of Twilight-like romances (I'm saying this because Twilight was hardly the first) by any author statements, because we can prove it is through the writing and dialogue provided.  Perhaps you should prove to us that Twilight is a deconstruction of ?????? by providing us some evidence?

  Also pretty much all what ipgd said, and I'm editting my post as ipgd explained it much more gracefully.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 02 juillet 2011 - 02:20 .