182 réponses à ce sujet

[Dangerfoot]

RinjiRenee wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

ipgd wrote...
Twilight is not a deconstruction

Really? I'm going to make an unsubstantiated claim that it is. Prove me wrong.

(Hence the problem with the "bad writing is secretly a deconstruction because I say so" argument.)

To say Twilight is a deconstruction would be like saying Watchmen is a deconstruction of super hero comic books that already deconstruct themselves, according to your logic.  Also pretty much all what ipgd said, and I'm editting my post as ipgd explained it much more gracefully.

...What?

[Rinji the Bearded]

Dangerfoot wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

ipgd wrote...
Twilight is not a deconstruction

Really? I'm going to make an unsubstantiated claim that it is. Prove me wrong.

(Hence the problem with the "bad writing is secretly a deconstruction because I say so" argument.)

To say Twilight is a deconstruction would be like saying Watchmen is a deconstruction of super hero comic books that already deconstruct themselves, according to your logic.  Also pretty much all what ipgd said, and I'm editting my post as ipgd explained it much more gracefully.

...What?

Exactly.  What is he talking about?  He needs to be able to prove Twilight is a deconstruction of something before he can throw that argument around.   We can prove Anders' romance is a deconstruction given the evidence in the game -- ipgd already explained it.

Let's say my "unsubstantiated" claim is that Watchmen is a deconstruction of super heros in comic books, and I use clues from the books to prove it.  I have my proof, but someone doesn't agree with me, and says "superhero comics are a deconstruction!"  Of what?  Where is the textual proof that Twilight is deconstructing anything?

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 02 juillet 2011 - 02:28 .

[AtreiyaN7]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Considering that Ibis, redibis, nunquam per bella peribis reads both as "you will go, you will return, never in war will you perish" and "you will go, you will never return, in war you will perish" I think it's an awesome example of good prophecy dialogue. Just not one that translates particularly well into English. So yeah, I think it's way better than Flemeth's dialogue. This stuff is hard to write, though - I hold Flemeth a lot less against the Dragon Age writing team than say, Merrill. Plenty of good writers (*cough*Whedon*cough*) will occasionally write prophecy dialogue that falls a little flat. Of course, they could just pull a Tolkien and do an homage of the prophecy from The Scottish Play or something and that would have been fine.

I can flip open A Feast of Crows by George R.R. Martin - who almost everyone acknowledges as being a good writer - and find a prophecy like this one:

Maggy the Frog: Queen you shall be...until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

So tell me, are you going to call Martin's prophetic dialogue crap because it isn't wordy and overly complicated? A "proper" prophecy, if there even is such a thing, does not have to be ambiguous, unclear, obtuse or difficult to understand, nor is it a requirement that it be spouted by an actual Greek oracle. Sometimes putting it in plain English is just fine.

Flemeth: "We stand upon the precipice of change. The world fears the inevitable plummet into the abyss. Watch for that moment...and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap."

Now how, exactly, is the above dialogue by Flemeth somehow really, really horrible in comparison to Martin's writing? I have had to format manuscripts by authors who clearly are in dire need remedial English classes, so I've seen bad, bad dialogue (including assorted annoying "prophecies," biblical and otherwise) on many a workday. In my opinion (which obviously differs from yours), Flemeth was competently written.

And if you take less issue with her than someone like Merrill, why aren't you kvetching about Merrill instead since she's a bigger sticking point for you? Also, there's no need to crib from Macbeth or The Lord of the Rings either. The prophecies/dialogue in those books fit their respective stories and styles - just as Flemeth's words seems to fit reasonably well with DA. I'm not expecting anything florid or particularly high-minded in dark fantasy (or something that's reasonably gritty/aiming for a measure of realism). I would actually find dialogue such as the Weird Sisters chanting "Thrice the brindled cat hath mewed/Thrice and once the hedge-pig whined," etc. to be out of place and inappropriate.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 02 juillet 2011 - 02:27 .

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Considering that Ibis, redibis, nunquam per bella peribis reads both as "you will go, you will return, never in war will you perish" and "you will go, you will never return, in war you will perish" I think it's an awesome example of good prophecy dialogue. Just not one that translates particularly well into English. So yeah, I think it's way better than Flemeth's dialogue. This stuff is hard to write, though - I hold Flemeth a lot less against the Dragon Age writing team than say, Merrill. Plenty of good writers (*cough*Whedon*cough*) will occasionally write prophecy dialogue that falls a little flat. Of course, they could just pull a Tolkien and do an homage of the prophecy from The Scottish Play or something and that would have been fine.

I can flip open A Feast of Crows by George R.R. Martin - who almost everyone acknowledges as being a good writer - and find a prophecy like this one:

Maggy the Frog: Queen you shall be...until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.

So tell me, are you going to call Martin's prophetic dialogue crap because it isn't wordy and overly complicated? A "proper" prophecy, if there even is such a thing, does not have to be ambiguous, unclear, obtuse or difficult to understand, nor is it a requirement that it be spouted by an actual Greek oracle. Sometimes putting it in plain English is just fine.

Flemeth: "We stand upon the precipice of change. The world fears the inevitable plummet into the abyss. Watch for that moment...and when it comes, do not hesitate to leap."

Now how, exactly, is the above dialogue by Flemeth somehow really, really horrible in comparison to Martin's writing? I have had to format manuscripts by authors who clearly are in dire need remedial English classes, so I've seen bad, bad dialogue (including assorted annoying "prophecies," biblical and otherwise) on many a workday. In my opinion (which obviously differs from yours), Flemeth was competently written.

And if you take less issue with her than someone like Merrill, why aren't you kvetching about Merrill instead since she's a bigger sticking point for you? Also, there's no need to crib from Macbeth or The Lord of the Rings either. The prophecies/dialogue in those books fit their respective stories and styles - just as Flemeth's words seems to fit reasonably well with DA. I'm not expecting anything florid or particularly high-minded in dark fantasy (or something that's reasonably gritty/aiming for a measure of realism). I would actually find dialogue such as the Weird Sisters chanting "Thrice the brindled cat hath mewed/Thrice and once the hedge-pig whined," etc. to be out of place and inappropriate.

I haven't read George RR Martin, but based on his reputation I don't doubt that he can write a good propecy. I just don't think this is particularly good enigmatic dialogue (I'm not sure I'd call it prophetic - Flemeth just has kind of an alien mind and knows more than the Warden) next to some of the equivalents from literature - for instance, the Weaver from Perdido Street Station or the gods from Latro in the Mist. It's hardly the worst such dialogue I've seen - certainly better than "There is always a catch! Life is a catch! I suggest you catch it while you can!" Once again, this isn't a huge flaw I find with the writing, because this sort of stuff is easy to make a little awkward. I'm mostly just discussing it because it's a more interesting discussion than whether some of the more ambiguously bad writing is a super secret deconstruction

[ipgd]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

super secret deconstruction

It's a super obvious deconstruction. One of the most obvious and unambiguous examples of one I can even think of. Which I've pointed out, but you've ignored all of my arguments in favor of saying "no u".

[GunMoth]

@Atreiyan: I agree that Martin's dialog is quite similar in terms of quality as Flemeth's, but personally, what turned me off to Flemeth's prophecies in DA2 is that her character was less spontaneous and fidgety as she was in DA1. In DA1, she constantly made references to things that had no relevance, or would spout riddles. Prophecies seemed to flow naturally with her character in the first installment. She seemed wayyy more collected in DA2, and I couldn't tell how I was supposed to feel about her anymore.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

ipgd wrote...

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

super secret deconstruction

It's a super obvious deconstruction. One of the most obvious and unambiguous examples of one I can even think of. Which I've pointed out, but you've ignored all of my arguments in favor of saying "no u".

Yeah, because this whole argument isn't really relevant to the thread. Also, much as it was fun for a little while, subjective opinion vs. subjective opinion gets a little boring to argue after a couple posts.

[Brenon Holmes]

Please take the discussion to the Off-Topic forum. Thank you.