46 réponses à ce sujet

[Azzanadra]

Hi guys, Im in a bit of a dilema here... at the lansmeet I want Loghain to Live but I dont want Alistair to leave. Sadly thats not a possibility.... my two main options are:

1. Kill loghain, make Alistair king with Anora. Alistair stays in my group.

or

2. Let Loghain Live, Alistair still becomes king with anora. Aliustair leaves my group, loghain joins.

Which option should I shoot for? Im a mercuful guy, Ive read up a bit about Loghain, he doesnt seem THAT bad really, so i dont want to kill him but i dont want Alistair hating on me... I need convincing on which option to shoot for.

Thanks.

Modifié par Azzanadra, 01 juillet 2011 - 05:06 .

[Arthur Cousland]

You can have Alistair marry Anora, though he will still leave the group. That does keep him from being executed or becoming a wandering drunk.

The only way for Alistair to stay with the group is to kill Loghain. You can't have both.

[Azzanadra]

I know that, bacically what I want is the more "good" ending.

[Zjarcal]

Well, I myself spare Loghain and damn the consequences. If Alistair wants to leave, that's his decision and I don't really care. My warden never had any pact with him about killing Loghain.

My advice would be to stick to what's right for your character and avoid metagaming, unless you roleplay that Alistair's tantrum convinces your Warden to kill Loghain.

Of course, sparing Loghain allows you the chance to get to interact with a new companion before the game ends, and his banters with other companions are awesome. So in terms of content, you miss out a lot by killing him, not to mention getting the chance to really understand him.

[bleetman]

If it helps, Alistair doesn't stay furious at the Warden for very long.

[Arthur Cousland]

A "good" character can still see Loghain as someone who deserted Cailan, Duncan and co. at Ostagar, had Eamon poisoned, sold elves into slavery and dragged Ferelden into a civil war and have him executed.

Others who've read the books and know a bit of his backstory may be able to ignore all that he did and feel that the "good" choice is to spare him. It's all up to the character you're playing and how they might view things.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

What origin are you playing?

A City Elf might have a hard time sparing the guy who signed over her family and friends to slavers.

[Monica21]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

A "good" character can still see Loghain as someone who deserted Cailan, Duncan and co. at Ostagar, had Eamon poisoned, sold elves into slavery and dragged Ferelden into a civil war and have him executed.

Others who've read the books and know a bit of his backstory may be able to ignore all that he did and feel that the "good" choice is to spare him. It's all up to the character you're playing and how they might view things.

I thought killing Loghain was kind of the whole point of playing a "good" character? "Good" = black and white therefore Loghain is Bad and Alistair is Good. 

You don't have to read the books or know the backstory to see the grey, though admittedly you do have to look a bit harder, which really just means paying more attention.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Monica21 wrote...

I thought killing Loghain was kind of the whole point of playing a "good" character? "Good" = black and white therefore Loghain is Bad and Alistair is Good.

Nnnno. No.

Not that I think Loghain didn't go bad. Heck, there are plenty of good reasons to execute him. But there are good reasons not to as well, and especially not giving in to Alistair. Even Gaider says that Alistair's hate for Loghain is a corruptive force on his character.

Neither option is perfect. You either spare someone who's done lots of horrible things, or watch someone who's fought by your side walk away unless he gets his blood kill.

Easiest way around it just to let Alistair duel Loghain since you don't have to deal with that blather, but two S&S warriors duking it out takes FOREVER. >.<

[CalJones]

I'm a self-confessed Loghain fan so I always spare him (well, except the very first time I played, and the time I needed to get that blasted Warden Commander achievement). I really hate the execution scene and find it quite repellant to kill a man in front of his daughter, even if Anora is hard as nails. I'm also a sucker for redemption stories.

Ultimately, I find the best option is to marry Alistair to Anora, take Loghain and allow him to slay the archdemon. Alistair lives and the couple have arguably the best ruler epilogue slide, Loghain gets his redemption and there is no dangerous god baby roaming the world in the future. There are cases for all other outcomes but I like that one.

[gandanlin]

Loghain's numerous attempts to kill the Grey Wardens provide adequate proof of his character.

Personally, I cannot understand why Loghain would ever agree to be recruited. He has an intense hatred of the Orlesians and the Wardens both. It makes no sense at all for him to suddenly change sides. Totally out of character.

[Monica21]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
Nnnno. No.

Not that I think Loghain didn't go bad. Heck, there are plenty of good reasons to execute him. But there are good reasons not to as well, and especially not giving in to Alistair. Even Gaider says that Alistair's hate for Loghain is a corruptive force on his character.

Neither option is perfect. You either spare someone who's done lots of horrible things, or watch someone who's fought by your side walk away unless he gets his blood kill.

Easiest way around it just to let Alistair duel Loghain since you don't have to deal with that blather, but two S&S warriors duking it out takes FOREVER. >.<

It was more of a tongue-in-cheek comment. Sorry. Usually players who profess "good" characters don't see much beyond "Alistair is nice to me so I have to kill Loghain. Also, slaves." Yes, there are reasonable reasons to execute him but I haven't in a very long time. I'm at the point where Alistair trying to bully me into killing him is far more unacceptable.

[Monica21]

gandanlin wrote...

Loghain's numerous attempts to kill the Grey Wardens provide adequate proof of his character.

Do they? I mean, there's still very reasonable speculation that the Wardens are just trying to make themselves look important. There's the incredibly limited knowledge of exactly who these Grey Wardens are. He's trying to hold a country together and you're in his way. I might have tried to kill me too.

Personally, I cannot understand why Loghain would ever agree to be recruited. He has an intense hatred of the Orlesians and the Wardens both. It makes no sense at all for him to suddenly change sides. Totally out of character.

It's been a bit since I've played through the Landsmeet, but I think that's where he actually does learn that the Wardens aren't just all fuss and bother. They're legitimate and their claims are legitimate. As for agreeing to be recruited, by doing so he agrees to help save Ferelden. Frankly, that's the most Loghain-like he is. Nothing is more important than Ferelden.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Monica21 wrote...

It was more of a tongue-in-cheek comment. Sorry. Usually players who profess "good" characters don't see much beyond "Alistair is nice to me so I have to kill Loghain. Also, slaves." Yes, there are reasonable reasons to execute him but I haven't in a very long time. I'm at the point where Alistair trying to bully me into killing him is far more unacceptable.

Ah, say no more Yep, good old emotional blackmail.

Actually, Alistair's tantrum reminds me quite a bit of Anders' at the end of his Justice quest in DA2, if you refuse to do something for him on blind faith just because you're friends.

[CalJones]

The nice thing with that is that you can call him on it and tell him you won't forget he tried to blackmail you. There's no such recourse with Alistair. (Consequently, I do get a little kick from seeing Alistair drowning his sorrows in the Hanged Man, heh heh).

[Mike3207]

gandanlin wrote...

Loghain's numerous attempts to kill the Grey Wardens provide adequate proof of his character.

Personally, I cannot understand why Loghain would ever agree to be recruited. He has an intense hatred of the Orlesians and the Wardens both. It makes no sense at all for him to suddenly change sides. Totally out of character.

He joins the Wardens to save his own life andf because he want to end the Blight-he seemed quite eager in one of my playthroughs to be the one who sacrificed himself to kill the Archdemon.

[Big I]

Azzanadra wrote...
Hi guys, Im in a bit of a dilema here... at the lansmeet I want Loghain to Live but I dont want Alistair to leave.

If you harden Alistair in his companion quest and arrange for him to marry Anora he'll leave the group to be king if Loghain is spared. You'll have a conversation with him after the Landsmeet where he expresses his displeasure at Loghain being alive.


If you talk to him in the epilogue after killing the Archdemon with Loghain still alive he's cooled down quite a bit. He says he's sure that Duncan would be happy the Blight is over and he's grateful you made him king. By Awakening he seems to have put it behind him completely; interactions between him and a Warden that spared Loghain are identical to the ones between him and a Warden that killed Loghain. His brief appearance as king in Act 3 of DA2 reinforces this impression; when the Warden is mentioned in conversation he refers to them in tones of humour/affection.


Furthermore, the Mage boon (freeing the Circle) and possibly the other boons are only recorded correctly if they're granted by Anora. For the purposes of this the game treats Alistair and Anora ruling with Loghain being spared as a variation on Anora being ruler, and thus records it correctly. So if you:

a) want your mage boon to be recorded correctly for future import purposes and

want Alistair to be king

the only way to do that without modding the game is to have Alistair marry Anora and then spare Loghain.

[Jedimaster88]

LookingGlass93 wrote...

Azzanadra wrote...
Hi guys, Im in a bit of a dilema here... at the lansmeet I want Loghain to Live but I dont want Alistair to leave.

If you harden Alistair in his companion quest and arrange for him to marry Anora he'll leave the group to be king if Loghain is spared. You'll have a conversation with him after the Landsmeet where he expresses his displeasure at Loghain being alive.


If you talk to him in the epilogue after killing the Archdemon with Loghain still alive he's cooled down quite a bit. He says he's sure that Duncan would be happy the Blight is over and he's grateful you made him king. By Awakening he seems to have put it behind him completely; interactions between him and a Warden that spared Loghain are identical to the ones between him and a Warden that killed Loghain. His brief appearance as king in Act 3 of DA2 reinforces this impression; when the Warden is mentioned in conversation he refers to them in tones of humour/affection.

Well Alistairs reaction to Loghain still alive in DA2 act 3 from a youtube clip, gave me a picture he hasnt put it behind him. When Aveline mentions Ostagar, Alistair says something like "Sadly Loghain still lives". I think he has calmed down in the end of origins because what is done, is done and there is absolutely nothing he can do about it. That doesnt mean he has forgotten what Loghain did or anything else. He has been put to a position that doesnt necessarily make him happy. I certainly wouldnt be happy in his position. He has no choise but to try and make the best of it I quess.

[gandanlin]

Monica21 wrote...

gandanlin wrote...

Loghain's numerous attempts to kill the Grey Wardens provide adequate proof of his character.

Do they? I mean, there's still very reasonable speculation that the Wardens are just trying to make themselves look important. There's the incredibly limited knowledge of exactly who these Grey Wardens are. He's trying to hold a country together and you're in his way. I might have tried to kill me too.

Personally, I cannot understand why Loghain would ever agree to be recruited. He has an intense hatred of the Orlesians and the Wardens both. It makes no sense at all for him to suddenly change sides. Totally out of character.

It's been a bit since I've played through the Landsmeet, but I think that's where he actually does learn that the Wardens aren't just all fuss and bother. They're legitimate and their claims are legitimate. As for agreeing to be recruited, by doing so he agrees to help save Ferelden. Frankly, that's the most Loghain-like he is. Nothing is more important than Ferelden.

I read him a bit differently than you.  In my view Loghain is trying to kill the Wardens because they know what happened at Ostagar.  Loghain deserted and the Wardens bear knowledge of that.  Therefore,  Loghain launches a propaganda campaign against them.

But I can also accept that there can be other views of his character.  All in the game, I suppose.

[Jedimaster88]

gandanlin wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

gandanlin wrote...

Loghain's numerous attempts to kill the Grey Wardens provide adequate proof of his character.

Do they? I mean, there's still very reasonable speculation that the Wardens are just trying to make themselves look important. There's the incredibly limited knowledge of exactly who these Grey Wardens are. He's trying to hold a country together and you're in his way. I might have tried to kill me too.

Personally, I cannot understand why Loghain would ever agree to be recruited. He has an intense hatred of the Orlesians and the Wardens both. It makes no sense at all for him to suddenly change sides. Totally out of character.

It's been a bit since I've played through the Landsmeet, but I think that's where he actually does learn that the Wardens aren't just all fuss and bother. They're legitimate and their claims are legitimate. As for agreeing to be recruited, by doing so he agrees to help save Ferelden. Frankly, that's the most Loghain-like he is. Nothing is more important than Ferelden.

I read him a bit differently than you.  In my view Loghain is trying to kill the Wardens because they know what happened at Ostagar.  Loghain deserted and the Wardens bear knowledge of that.  Therefore,  Loghain launches a propaganda campaign against them.

But I can also accept that there can be other views of his character.  All in the game, I suppose.

There is that captured noble guy in howe´s dungeon. If I remember right, he was there because his friend, who was at Ostagar, told him that Loghain gave the order to retreat BEFORE the darkspawn overwhelmed Cailan. Who knows what propaganda Loghain spread about the wardens.

[Monica21]

gandanlin wrote...
I read him a bit differently than you.  In my view Loghain is trying to kill the Wardens because they know what happened at Ostagar.  Loghain deserted and the Wardens bear knowledge of that.  Therefore,  Loghain launches a propaganda campaign against them.

But I can also accept that there can be other views of his character.  All in the game, I suppose.

This makes my head hurt.

There's a huge difference between a retreat and desertion. Loghain retreated. Tactical retreats have happened throughout history and it does not equal desertion or even insubordination. It's established that the darkspawn horde is larger than anticipated, even with the scouts. The one you have to bandage up when you first enter the Wilds seems a bit surprised that they came out of the ground. Then they burst into the Tower of Ishal, which is behind your own lines, and slow you down. Your signal is late and Loghain doesn't know why, just that it's late. Loghain is an experienced general. He sees the battlefield and knows that he will either lose the battle entirely or win a phyrric victory. Neither is desireable. Either way his position on the battlefield prevents him from rescuing Cailan. He retreats to regroup and save the troops for what he knows will be further, bigger battles against the darkspawn.

Is he politcally astute? No, but that's why generals should stay generals and politicians should stay politicians. He isn't stupid though. If you played RtO you know he has reason to be suspicious about Ferelden and where Cailan is leading it in regard to Orlais. I have no doubt that Loghain was working to remove Cailan from the Ferelden throne, something completely within the law, by the way, but he had no plans to murder him by darkspawn.

As for the Wardens, he doesn't know you and he doesn't know your organization. He's suspicious. (With reason, but that's backstory that's barely touched on in-game.) He may even suspect that your signal was late on purpose. Either way, he needed to save what was left of the army. As for the propaganda campaign, I doubt it's Loghain's idea but it isn't established. A propaganda campaign is completely out of character for him. As your character gets the chance to say, he isn't the type to let other people do his work for him. It is in Howe's character though. Is trusting Howe wise? Not at all, but that's another reason why generals should stay out of politics.

[Monica21]

Jedimaster88 wrote...
There is that captured noble guy in howe´s dungeon. If I remember right, he was there because his friend, who was at Ostagar, told him that Loghain gave the order to retreat BEFORE the darkspawn overwhelmed Cailan. Who knows what propaganda Loghain spread about the wardens.

I can't remember exactly what is said and I'm not that far in my current game, but I don't think that's entirely the case.

If what his friend said is true, then that means the order of events presented to you by the game developers is wrong, even though it would make more sense. If your signal is late then that means there are obstacles in your path on the way to the top of the tower. Loghain doesn't know what's going on, so I don't actually know why he waits for the signal unless it's for dramatic effect.

A general has no obligation to save his king from his own stupidity, and Loghain as a teryn had no obligation to save Cailan. The king of Ferelden is chosen by a somewhat democratic election of landowners. Ferelden is not a divine right kingdom. Cailan chose to fight with the Wardens against the judgment of Loghain. Even if Loghain knew where Cailan was on the battlefield it's unlikely the risk of saving him was worth it.

[Addai]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

There is that captured noble guy in howe´s dungeon. If I remember right, he was there because his friend, who was at Ostagar, told him that Loghain gave the order to retreat BEFORE the darkspawn overwhelmed Cailan. Who knows what propaganda Loghain spread about the wardens.

He does say that, but we know he's not right.  Cailan dies at around the same time the beacon is lit.  I suppose "overwhelmed" is a matter of opinion, but you can see the streams of darkspawn torches coming down a hillside with no end.

The point of that conversation with Oswyn is that Loghain (more likely Howe, since they ended up in his dungeon and on his torture rack) are rounding up people who are politically dangerous to them.

[Bleachrude]

The problem with the "retreat at ostagar wasn't treason" is that it is written by people that I think after the fact, wanted it to be seen as potentially not a clear-cut choice.

Think about the sequence of events..

If Loghain is waiting on the beacon to charge, this means that Loghain can't effectively see the battle (otherwise one wouldn't need a SIGNAL) thus, Loghain wouldn't retreat since he wouldn't know what the situation was...

If Loghain does retreat before the battle because he thinks there are too many darkspawn, then what was the purpose of sending two grey wardens to the Tower?

And again, I know the writers wanted us to think of Loghain as being some "military genius" (although reading the Stolen Throne I'm thinking Katriel's help gets underestimated) but a battle plan that left no out for half the army if things went to seed?

Someone needs to read Sun Tzu's "Art of War" - Chapter 4 Positioning

(Translating for the Thedan version of Sun-Tzu--
"Let me get this straight--yYOU personally, Loghain Mac Tir, came up with a battle-plan that involved positioning half the army with no -retreat avenues open to it and you took the OTHER half and could determine the battle was lost since it was more of the enemy than you thought and you walked away?"

REALLY?

Even 600 years before the birth of Andraste, we were teaching better tactics!!!"

Hell, I don't even understand why Loghain needs to be made a warden to be a general..The same reason why Loghain gave Cailan as to why the king shouldn't be upfront applies to the bloody general..Especially in Ferelden where you don't seem to have the modern day General Staff...

(A lot of people tend to see the Landsmeet as a Loghain vs Alistair debate..personally I don't as there are a whole whack of reasons irrespective of alistair as to why Loghain needs to die. There's an interesting part in DA2 where Aveline talks about Ostagar - Ms. No-nonsense herself would gut Loghain faster than alistair would IMO...."and you want to make Loghain general of your armies?

[Addai]

Bleachrude wrote...

The problem with the "retreat at ostagar wasn't treason" is that it is written by people that I think after the fact, wanted it to be seen as potentially not a clear-cut choice.

Think about the sequence of events..

If Loghain is waiting on the beacon to charge, this means that Loghain can't effectively see the battle (otherwise one wouldn't need a SIGNAL) thus, Loghain wouldn't retreat since he wouldn't know what the situation was...

If Loghain does retreat before the battle because he thinks there are too many darkspawn, then what was the purpose of sending two grey wardens to the Tower?

And again, I know the writers wanted us to think of Loghain as being some "military genius" (although reading the Stolen Throne I'm thinking Katriel's help gets underestimated) but a battle plan that left no out for half the army if things went to seed?

Someone needs to read Sun Tzu's "Art of War" - Chapter 4 Positioning

Okay, I need to save this somewhere so I can copy paste.  This is my take on events at Ostagar.

We are told that the fortress had been used for years against the "barbarians" by the Tevinters.  That was why it was chosen as a defensive position.  Sun Tzu can't argue with results.

The strategy at Ostagar was a classic envelopment.  Draw the enemies into a deep valley and close the door behind them.  The Fereldans had the advantage of the heights, and a chokepoint makes for an excellent defensive position if all goes well, see battle of Marathon. 

All didn't go well.  The horde was much larger than anticipated, too large for them to all get into the valley before the vanguard is crushed.  If you try to flank an army with deep reinforcements, all you end up doing is getting cut in half yourself.  This also explains how Loghain could know that the battle was lost even from his vantage point- he could see the horde stretching out over that hillside without end.  The fact that the Wardens tried to send his troops in anyway could have reinforced his belief that they were careless with Fereldan lives.

It was not Loghain's idea for Cailan to be in the vanguard at the head of the valley, a dangerous position for anyone let alone the king.  He tried to talk him out of it.  Nevertheless, he did make plans to abandon the field if necessary, including wanting to be in control of the tower signal.  How justifiable you find his actions depends on perspective.

Hell, I don't even understand why Loghain needs to be made a warden to be a general..The same reason why Loghain gave Cailan as to why the king shouldn't be upfront applies to the bloody general..Especially in Ferelden where you don't seem to have the modern day General Staff...

I think the idea is that he is always found guilty of treason, but you can decide that a more fitting end for him is to fight with the order he tried to undermine.  Being a Warden also will cut him off from further influence in Fereldan politics- theoretically.

(A lot of people tend to see the Landsmeet as a Loghain vs Alistair debate..personally I don't as there are a whole whack of reasons irrespective of alistair as to why Loghain needs to die. There's an interesting part in DA2 where Aveline talks about Ostagar - Ms. No-nonsense herself would gut Loghain faster than alistair would IMO...."and you want to make Loghain general of your armies?

Yeah, so what.  Aveline has her perspective just as anyone else does.  She was in the vanguard (though I find it hard to believe any made it out alive), so obviously she's bitter about being left in the lurch.  Soldiers leaving Ferelden are obviously not ones who are in favor of Loghain, unless they're just cowards.  Of course they could have stayed and fought against him if they were so incensed, but that's a complaint for the DA2 board.

Modifié par Addai67, 05 juillet 2011 - 03:49 .