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[Monica21]

Ditto to everything Addai said. And wasn't Loghain even reluctant to fight them that night? From the conversation with him I always get the feeling that Loghain doesn't like the situation or Cailan's eagerness, or both. He planned the battle to the best of his ability based on Cailan's desire to hold them at Ostagar.

The biggest problem with Ostagar is that the entire battle is written by game developers to create a dramatic event. Game developers don't typically know a lot about battlefield tactics or strategy. There's a lot that's glossed over for the sake of drama. Why do you need a signal and a beacon? It has to mean that Loghain is somewhere where he can't see the signal, but that doesn't mean he can't see the field of battle, or at least parts of it. You wouldn't send the signal from the valley anyway. If he's still seeing darkspawn streaming into the valley then yes, as Addai said, he's likely to get his forces sandwiched.

If you try arguing Ostagar at the Landsmeet you get shut down pretty quickly. I think any player or character can find reasons to justify killing Loghain, but Ostagar isn't one of them. 

Modifié par Monica21, 05 juillet 2011 - 04:52 .

[Bleachrude]

The problem with your explnaation is that it REALLY makes no sense to me...

Loghain's battle-plan fell apart because of "too many opponents?" (let's ignore that the wardens are supposed to be able to tell the king this..). Really, again, Loghaain is lucky there isn't a General staff since realistically somebody would ask.."oh what happens if there are say double the numbers..wouldn't half the army be crushed..."

Again I would point out that not only was this Loghain's battle plan (which means he had little faith in his own plans that a simple "numbers are larger than I thought" screwed the hooch) but he also outright rejected another battle plan...

As well, why would you give up the defensive positioning..as you pointed out Ostagar is a fortress designed to hold back the wilders..I imagine a guess that the old Tevinters didn't do this by pointing themselves BETWEEN said fortress and the wilders...

His plan STILL sucks even if Cailan wasn't there..a plan that has no out for HALF of the army.

eeriously, if there's one thing I would love to see writers do if they have no experience with battle is to simply read Sun Tzu's "art of War" (even 2500 years ago, Sun Tzu considered that stupid...) and nowhere does it say "put yourself in a position where you have no room to escape"

INO, a much better method (more ambiguous) would be for Loghain to make the flanking charge then realize that the battle was unwinnable anf then fight his way out by leaving the king

(of course, the irony would be delicious given how Rowena herself did the exact opposite when the same thing happened to him in TST) - there should've been a dialogue option from Eamon mentioning this somewhere...

Furthermore, why the hell do you need to actually encircle the enemy..a large force on the side even if did NOT completely cut off the enemy would STILL play havoc with a surprised enemy..IRL at least, flanking forces could be smaller than the flanked force and still easily carry the battle...

re: Aveline
Well, remember, Wynne got out of that battle as well as that guy who was King Cailan\\s royal guard so I imagine like most battles, it wasn't 100% massacre (IRL - it is pretty unheard of a total wipeout even if the opposition is intent on killing everyone especially in large scale battles).

Again, the problem with recruiting Loghain is that I always thought it weird that nobody bats an eye at this especially the elves..Seriously, think about it..you have the ELVES now having to take orders from a guy who sold them into slavery..indeed..notice how much of a disapproval hit you take from Zevran if you side with the werewolves/side with the Tevinter slavers yet Zev just engages with witty banter?

There's the templars who should rightfully be pissed, the mages as well, large parts of the bannorn who opposed Loghain's unlawful actions and now...we're supposed to turn around and listen to him as a general JUST because he lost a personal duel?

The funny thing is...if Alistair wasn't there, Loghain would be executed ANYWAY after you win the Landsmeet..Poisoning an arl, selling elves into slavery...yeah, how much you want to bet that's a death sentence ANYWAY...main reason why I don't see it as a Alistair vs Loghain debate since the outcome without alistair there would STILL be Loghain losing his head...what did people think would've happened ..especially when the full extent of Howe's insanity is brought to light?

Even Anora couldn't stop that because again, it sets a VERY bad precedent if the worse is that he gets put under house arrest for life..I'm not sure how Anora thought she could maintain her authority with anything if she allowed for Loghain to live

Personallu, this is why as a male cousland I always have him executed..."I'm marrying Anora but if I disagree with her or you, I have to watch what I eat? No thanks"...better to show everyone in Ferelden that such Orlesian/Antivan attitudes will NOT be tolerated...

[Monica21]

 Yes, Loghain's battle plan didn't work because of too many opponents. The darkspawn were coming up through the ground. Scouts can't count those numbers, for obvious reasons. What do you mean about the Wardens telling the King this? That they know specific numbers? I never got the impression that they did, only that they had a general "strong" or "weak" feeling about darkspawn in an area.

A hammer and anvil strategy always means that the anvil takes a beating. Cailan was the one who kept insisting on the battle taking place at Ostagar, not Loghain. And a hammer and anvil with flanking reinforcements is not a plan that sucks as long as you know how many troops will be invading. Loghain didn't know. 

As for the flank, you don't need to encircle the army. That's not a flanking position. You need to be able to attack them with sufficient numbers and at a proper time to prevent your own troops from getting sandwiched. And why would Loghain enter the battle if he thought he would lose his troops? That's extremely poor decision making. Sun Tzu also said to never fight unless you know you can win. Loghain didn't know if he would win and didn't even think he could spare his troops. He saw the numbers of darkspawn and knew he would need whatever forces he could keep, along with the forces he could get from the banns. 

Why would anyone bat an eye at Loghain being recruited by the Wardens? You realize it's quite a severe downgrade in his rank, don't you? He loses his ternyr and his military rank. He might as well not even be a Ferelden citizen anymore since he serves at the whim of the First Warden. It's quite a severe punishment, just not death. At least not right away, given that at his age he'll probably be heading into the Deep Roads in five years or so.

Why would Loghain be executed anyway if you win the Landsmeet? He's only executed if your Warden decides to executes him. Alistair has nothing to do with it, except for yelling at you if you don't. And it's worth mentioning that Loghain wins the Landsmeet by default. You still have to persuade the nobles to your side.

Modifié par Monica21, 05 juillet 2011 - 05:55 .

[Addai]

@Bleachrude: **** happens, and in battle much moreso. I'm not sure what other battle plan you're referring to. Cailan was determined for a head-on confrontation with the darkspawn. What would you have suggested? Try to go find them in the wilds? The Grey Wardens are supposed to be able to sense darkspawn, but apparently they screwed the pooch, too. It is a little difficult to accurately scout an enemy that moves underground and can erupt anywhere.

The vanguard was holed up in the fortress, so they weren't "sandwiched" until Cailan charged. I'm not sure why he did that. Either it was him being an idiot because he got impetuous, or it was for the sake of cinema.

An enemy charge so massive that you can't see the end of their line is not going to break due to surprise. "He should have engaged anyway"... well, he made a call. There are Orlesian chevaliers massed on the border and Ferelden's forces are about to be cut down.

I'm not sure what you're even arguing, as the Warden is always appointed commanding general at the Landsmeet anyway,  whether you spare Loghain or not. As for whether he'd be executed regardless, since it's very difficult to win the Landsmeet unless Anora turns against him, that doesn't seem likely to me.  And you say you marry Anora but execute Loghain?  I'd still check your food. 

Modifié par Addai67, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:05 .

[Bleachrude]

re: Execution
What do you think the penalty for slavery, poisoning an arl AND generally running over the wishes of the bannorn actually would be (depending on how many of those rumours are true that you hear from others)? The bannorn was well within its rights to tell Loghain to ****** off since Loghain had no legal rights to appointing himself Regent.

That;s why Loghain is a dead man anyway IMO. Really...once you provide ALL the evidence against him, for the Bannorn then to turn around and say "ok, Loghain..you're in charge...especially once they are vindicated...it means that the Civil War meant nothing.

I'm not sure why people think Loghain wouldn't be executed without Alistair there anyway?

re: Battle plan
No, because it is HIS battle plan...You're ignoring this big part of why Loghain would automatically be stripped of his rank and likely facing an inquiry in our modern world...

It's one thing for a commander to decide to leave the battle because the general in charge of the plan screwed up..It's another thing entirely for said general to come up with a plan that leaves half the army no freaking way out (You seem to keep ignoring this but you NEVER put yourself into a position where you dont have an out) and then leaving with the other half.Especially once you factor in that there WAS another battleplan that he rejected out of hand...

Did Loghain even once think beforehand "ok, here's what is going to happen if anything goes wrong..."

Personally, It still doesn't explain why they just didn't let the darkspawn crash against Ostagar itself...Really, surely you don't think the Tevinters used it like that?

re: Punishment
Ironically I don't think Loghain gives two cares about the Teyrnship or anything with regard to his nobility...To Loghain I don't think it matters at all. Especially if Anora is still there...do you honestly think Anora isn't going to be listening to him anyway?

re: People's reactions
So..you honestly think people like Shanni and the rest of the city elves are going to follow his orders?

The Chantry (both the circle and Templars)- You find out that Loghain hires a blood mage to poison an arl (the exact thing that magesare trying to dispel to gain acceptance) and does this by throwing a templar into a hellhole?

Then of course there's Arl Howe...If the vice president was found out to be a mass murdering kick the puppy you think most people are going to believe the "oh, I didn't know what would happen when I put him on the ticket..."

Throw in the civil war and the bannorn (Loghain has no legal right to pressgang Fereldens) and why do you think people would NOT react unfavourably to Loghain in charge...

What...did they simply have no feelings about it and should get over it? I mean, it's not like it was 30 years ago or somethin like that...if Loghain isn't considered a big whiner/baby for not trusting the Orlesians, why are people that oppose Loghain considered this?

EDIT: Cailan

I know its fun to make Cailan as stupid as possible but ironically this makes Loghain & Anora even worse since they can't manipulate him .

Remember, Cailan's original idea was "wait for the Orlesians and then we take them out"

Loghain's response "We don't need their help...we can do it ourselves"

So really...his battle plan gets totally screwed up because of humbers yet a battle plan that actually had MORE numbers gets outfight rejected because loghain's butthurt over Orlais...

Again...why is Loghain not considered a hiner/big baby for not trusting Orlesians but Alistair is?

Re: The charge

Cailan did not charge OUT of the fortress ...they were in open ground to begin with  and then they ran to meet the Horde..which means that they were already in the cul de sac at the start of it..

Of course *stuff* happens in battle but any general worthy of the name makes sure the plan is flexible enough to accomodate such things..We're not talking "Divine Wind" here or anything like that

I

Modifié par Bleachrude, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:33 .

[Addai]

This isn't a modern court nor a modern military. Loghain had made enough political enemies that he was going to have a difficult row to hoe, but considering the Warden with all his Marty Stu capabilities only barely pulls off overthrowing him, there is no one else powerful enough.

For the vanguard in the valley, I am assuming there was no retreat. The fortress apparently is up against impassable mountains. It's still their best defensive position, considering the alternative is the Korcari Wilds.

The vanguard is the anvil and Loghain's army is the hammer. The anvil is going to get pounded even if the strategy works. That's why he kept telling Cailan it was too dangerous. Obviously Loghain did leave himself a plan B- his forces retreat, cutting the Fereldan losses. That was something he planned for. I'm sure if it had been physically possible to have a retreat behind Cailan's forces, they would have planned for it. You don't always get to have everything you want.

I don't think anyone, including the nobles at the Landsmeet, give two ****s about the elves. There was going to be bad feeling after the civil war no matter what. It's fine if you want to consider the story about the black hats and the white hats, but I think it's a bit more complicated than that.

Edit for your edit- Loghain is "butthurt" about the Orlesians?  Understandably so.  All of Ferelden was bent over for 70 years.  Four legions of chevaliers- heavy horsed knights, of which Ferelden apparently has none- is a huge force.  This is the same force that were the shock troops of the occupation.  Already once before, in Nevarra, the Orlesians used "help during a Blight" as an excuse to occupy land.  So, right.  Loghain is a little concerned.  Crazy. 

Modifié par Addai67, 05 juillet 2011 - 08:50 .

[Monica21]

Bleachrude wrote...

re: Execution
What do you think the penalty for slavery, poisoning an arl AND generally running over the wishes of the bannorn actually would be (depending on how many of those rumours are true that you hear from others)? The bannorn was well within its rights to tell Loghain to ****** off since Loghain had no legal rights to appointing himself Regent.

That;s why Loghain is a dead man anyway IMO. Really...once you provide ALL the evidence against him, for the Bannorn then to turn around and say "ok, Loghain..you're in charge...especially once they are vindicated...it means that the Civil War meant nothing.

I'm not sure why people think Loghain wouldn't be executed without Alistair there anyway?

Because he isn't executed is why. Your warden is the one who makes the call to execute him. Alistair is only there as a prop for Eamon. The entire reason Eamon calls the Landsmeet is to put Alistair forward as King and not to judge Loghain.

None of the nobility give a damn about the elves. I don't even bring it up. Poisoning Eamon is quite a bigger deal, but Eamon can't decide to execute Loghain. And sure the bannorn had the right to tell Loghain to ****** off but they were divided among themselves.

re: Battle plan
No, because it is HIS battle plan...You're ignoring this big part of why Loghain would automatically be stripped of his rank and likely facing an inquiry in our modern world...

It's one thing for a commander to decide to leave the battle because the general in charge of the plan screwed up..It's another thing entirely for said general to come up with a plan that leaves half the army no freaking way out (You seem to keep ignoring this but you NEVER put yourself into a position where you dont have an out) and then leaving with the other half.Especially once you factor in that there WAS another battleplan that he rejected out of hand...

Addai answered this, but first, this isn't the modern world. Second, Cailan is an idiot who put himself on the front line. Third, do you think generals never retreat? His retreat was his out.

Did Loghain even once think beforehand "ok, here's what is going to happen if anything goes wrong..."

Yes, which is why he tried to talk Cailan out of staying on the front lines.

Personally, It still doesn't explain why they just didn't let the darkspawn crash against Ostagar itself...Really, surely you don't think the Tevinters used it like that?

And with the darkspawn's ability to dig into the Tower of Ishal how do you think that would have worked out?

re: Punishment
Ironically I don't think Loghain gives two cares about the Teyrnship or anything with regard to his nobility...To Loghain I don't think it matters at all. Especially if Anora is still there...do you honestly think Anora isn't going to be listening to him anyway?

He cares about it in the sense that it was a gift from Maric and Gwaren has personal meaning to him, but he doesn't care about being a noble. Why would that point matter in your argument? And what does Anora have to do with this?

re: People's reactions
So..you honestly think people like Shanni and the rest of the city elves are going to follow his orders?

The Chantry (both the circle and Templars)- You find out that Loghain hires a blood mage to poison an arl (the exact thing that magesare trying to dispel to gain acceptance) and does this by throwing a templar into a hellhole?

Then of course there's Arl Howe...If the vice president was found out to be a mass murdering kick the puppy you think most people are going to believe the "oh, I didn't know what would happen when I put him on the ticket..."

Throw in the civil war and the bannorn (Loghain has no legal right to pressgang Fereldens) and why do you think people would NOT react unfavourably to Loghain in charge...

What...did they simply have no feelings about it and should get over it? I mean, it's not like it was 30 years ago or somethin like that...if Loghain isn't considered a big whiner/baby for not trusting the Orlesians, why are people that oppose Loghain considered this?

I don't understand what you're arguing here, so I'm ignoring it. 

EDIT: Cailan

I know its fun to make Cailan as stupid as possible but ironically this makes Loghain & Anora even worse since they can't manipulate him .

Remember, Cailan's original idea was "wait for the Orlesians and then we take them out"

Loghain's response "We don't need their help...we can do it ourselves"

So really...his battle plan gets totally screwed up because of humbers yet a battle plan that actually had MORE numbers gets outfight rejected because loghain's butthurt over Orlais...

No, what I find interesting is that Cailan refused to wait for help from Redcliffe but wanted to wait for the Orlesians. It's not "fun" to make Cailan out as stupid. It's truth.

Again...why is Loghain not considered a hiner/big baby for not trusting Orlesians but Alistair is?

When is Alistair distrustful of Orlais?

Re: The charge

Cailan did not charge OUT of the fortress ...they were in open ground to begin with  and then they ran to meet the Horde..which means that they were already in the cul de sac at the start of it..

Of course *stuff* happens in battle but any general worthy of the name makes sure the plan is flexible enough to accomodate such things..We're not talking "Divine Wind" here or anything like that.

Yes, dramatic footage of a charge. Exactly what every good cinematic needs to makes people go "what?"

[Jedimaster88]

I´ve been wondering one thing about the civil war thing. If Anora truly is such a great ruler as we hear a lot and people respect her etc, why couldnt Loghain just do the right by letting her deal with politics and ruling and he focus on fighting the darkspawn like he should have. Would the bannorn and the other nobles still have a reason to be upset? That way no need to listen Howes suggestions, no poisonings, no slave deals etc. If Loghain had just done that, would it still have gone as bad as it did. Did he have so little confidence in his daughter or what?

[Odoyle]

Jedimaster88 wrote...

I´ve been wondering one thing about the civil war thing. If Anora truly is such a great ruler as we hear a lot and people respect her etc, why couldnt Loghain just do the right by letting her deal with politics and ruling and he focus on fighting the darkspawn like he should have. Would the bannorn and the other nobles still have a reason to be upset? That way no need to listen Howes suggestions, no poisonings, no slave deals etc. If Loghain had just done that, would it still have gone as bad as it did. Did he have so little confidence in his daughter or what?

All other arguments aside, he saw an opporunity to seize power and he did. As Flemeth said, "Men's hearts hold shadows darker than any tainted creature".

[Addai]

Odoyle wrote...
All other arguments aside, he saw an opporunity to seize power and he did. As Flemeth said, "Men's hearts hold shadows darker than any tainted creature".

Flemeth is manipulating the Wardens, just as she tried to manipulate Maric and Loghain a generation before.  Just keep that in mind while quoting her pearls of wisdom.

I believe it was more along the lines of a general declaring martial law in a time of war.  It's his daughter on the throne and he wants her to stay there, but he's used to being in charge and believes he has to be again.  In a conversation that was restored from the toolset, he tells her "be the queen you were always meant to be- nothing would please me more."

[gandanlin]

Odoyle wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...

I´ve been wondering one thing about the civil war thing. If Anora truly is such a great ruler as we hear a lot and people respect her etc, why couldnt Loghain just do the right by letting her deal with politics and ruling and he focus on fighting the darkspawn like he should have. Would the bannorn and the other nobles still have a reason to be upset? That way no need to listen Howes suggestions, no poisonings, no slave deals etc. If Loghain had just done that, would it still have gone as bad as it did. Did he have so little confidence in his daughter or what?

All other arguments aside, he saw an opporunity to seize power and he did. As Flemeth said, "Men's hearts hold shadows darker than any tainted creature".

Good point.  And for a "Grey" Warden Loghain seems a tad too dark and tainted for my view of the Wardens.

[Jedimaster88]

Addai67 wrote...

Odoyle wrote...
All other arguments aside, he saw an opporunity to seize power and he did. As Flemeth said, "Men's hearts hold shadows darker than any tainted creature".

Flemeth is manipulating the Wardens, just as she tried to manipulate Maric and Loghain a generation before.  Just keep that in mind while quoting her pearls of wisdom.

I believe it was more along the lines of a general declaring martial law in a time of war.  It's his daughter on the throne and he wants her to stay there, but he's used to being in charge and believes he has to be again.  In a conversation that was restored from the toolset, he tells her "be the queen you were always meant to be- nothing would please me more."

Well she kind of loses her authority when Loghain takes over, no matter what his intentions were so I could simply say "talk is cheap" or something. Throughout the whole game I have hard time to see her as any sort of great queen with all that is going on. There is also that "KING LOGHAIN" thing that messenger keeps saying. He wants her to be queen and yet at the same time her position and authority as queen is crushed with all that "Ferelden will stand on its own" and "I will lead us through this, you must have faith in me" way of thinking.

[Addai]

Jedimaster88 wrote...
Well she kind of loses her authority when Loghain takes over, no matter what his intentions were so I could simply say "talk is cheap" or something. Throughout the whole game I have hard time to see her as any sort of great queen with all that is going on. There is also that "KING LOGHAIN" thing that messenger keeps saying. He wants her to be queen and yet at the same time her position and authority as queen is crushed with all that "Ferelden will stand on its own" and "I will lead us through this, you must have faith in me" way of thinking.

No argument there, he does railroad her.  However I don't see any indication he wanted power for his own ambition.  He seems quite relieved when he can responsibly get rid of it.  Why he didn't have more confidence in Anora from the beginning- I think it is fatherly protectiveness, as he says at the Landsmeet.

His messenger is a doofus.  I do think Howe was pushing the idea of Loghain as king- you notice he is the only one who calls him "sire" rather than "your grace," which is the standard address to a teyrn.

[Bleachrude]

re: Anora

I think this was one of the casualties of the switch from "Alistair is older (than Cailan)" since IIRC, when Alistair + Warden meet her, Alistair and Anora interact as if they know each other...

Similarly, there is dialogue where Alistair always says Anora is a good queen...

But think about it...Alistair left Redcliffe at age 10 and up till his recuitment by Duncan (age 19-20 I figure) he was in the Chantry...

So how the hell did those two know each other? I think they simply did not do enough showing and not telling, but then again...how DO you show that Anora is a good queen?

(This issue becomes really noticeable around the Landsmeet stage of the game where both Loghain and Anora act/talk as if Alistair is older than Cailan)

[Mike3207]

Bleachrude wrote...

re: Anora

I think this was one of the casualties of the switch from "Alistair is older (than Cailan)" since IIRC, when Alistair + Warden meet her, Alistair and Anora interact as if they know each other...

Similarly, there is dialogue where Alistair always says Anora is a good queen...

But think about it...Alistair left Redcliffe at age 10 and up till his recuitment by Duncan (age 19-20 I figure) he was in the Chantry...

So how the hell did those two know each other? I think they simply did not do enough showing and not telling, but then again...how DO you show that Anora is a good queen?

(This issue becomes really noticeable around the Landsmeet stage of the game where both Loghain and Anora act/talk as if Alistair is older than Cailan)

Anora says she doesn't know Alastair well, but mentions what she knows of Alastair she heard from Maric and Eamon. I don't think Alistair really was much of a factor to the succession until Cailan's death, and wasn't held in high regard by anyone before that point. Not sure why he kept being called King, he was only the regent.

[Monica21]

Addai67 wrote...

Jedimaster88 wrote...
Well she kind of loses her authority when Loghain takes over, no matter what his intentions were so I could simply say "talk is cheap" or something. Throughout the whole game I have hard time to see her as any sort of great queen with all that is going on. There is also that "KING LOGHAIN" thing that messenger keeps saying. He wants her to be queen and yet at the same time her position and authority as queen is crushed with all that "Ferelden will stand on its own" and "I will lead us through this, you must have faith in me" way of thinking.

No argument there, he does railroad her.  However I don't see any indication he wanted power for his own ambition.  He seems quite relieved when he can responsibly get rid of it.  Why he didn't have more confidence in Anora from the beginning- I think it is fatherly protectiveness, as he says at the Landsmeet.

His messenger is a doofus.  I do think Howe was pushing the idea of Loghain as king- you notice he is the only one who calls him "sire" rather than "your grace," which is the standard address to a teyrn.

Well, to be fair, Anora doesn't actually have any authority. She is Wife Of A Dead King now. (Dowager Queen? I don't know. I'm too lazy to google.) In order to have authority the Landsmeet has to give it to her. I'm not sure why they didn't do that from the beginning unless there weren't enough nobles present. It was all a bit rushed.

And no, I don't see any indication that he wanted power for himself. He never presented himself as a ruler and every decision he made seemed to weigh more heavily on him. The "I will lead us through this" is a reference to the civil war and the darkspawn battles. Not a reference to any of his political abilities.

[nos_astra]

Addai67 wrote...
No argument there, he does railroad her.  However I don't see any indication he wanted power for his own ambition.  He seems quite relieved when he can responsibly get rid of it.  Why he didn't have more confidence in Anora from the beginning- I think it is fatherly protectiveness, as he says at the Landsmeet.

His messenger is a doofus.  I do think Howe was pushing the idea of Loghain as king- you notice he is the only one who calls him "sire" rather than "your grace," which is the standard address to a teyrn.

I agree that it's probably Howe's plan, but Loghain cannot possibly be oblivious to Howe's machinations. Otherwise I can add is easily manipulated by greedy, seflish men to the list of things that make Loghain look like a tool to me.

Monica21 wrote...
Well, to be fair, Anora doesn't actually have any authority. She is Wife Of A Dead King now. (Dowager Queen? I don't know. I'm too lazy to google.) In order to have authority the Landsmeet has to give it to her. I'm not sure why they didn't do that from the beginning unless there weren't enough nobles present. It was all a bit rushed.

It's one thing that Loghain himselfs fails at politics (after having been a teyrn for like 20 years). It's another one that Anora herself fails to see how standing aside should ruin her reputation and make her look weak and indecisive. And unless she's spend all her life under a rock, she must know that Howe is not to be trusted and her father is not someone she wants pushing you aside.

You don't protect the daughter you raised to be the queen-consort from doing her duty merely out of fatherly protectiveness, especially not if you intend to put her on the throne again. Or is he going to push her aside every time he sees trouble ahead?

Monica21 wrote...
And no, I don't see any indication that he wanted power for himself. He never presented himself as a ruler and every decision he made seemed to weigh more heavily on him. The "I will lead us through this" is a reference to the civil war and the darkspawn battles. Not a reference to any of his political abilities.

There's quite a bit of circular reasoning in there. In your vision Loghain is not ambitious, which is why the "King Loghain" is just the wishful thinking of a Loghain fanboy lowly messenger, Howe has a crown made behind Loghain's back and I will lead us through this in a strictly military sense (which makes us wonder why you are a regent and block the voting of the Landsmeet) and ... oh look, no indication of his ambition at all.

Modifié par klarabella, 07 juillet 2011 - 09:59 .

[Rakhasa]

Monica21 wrote...


It was more of a tongue-in-cheek comment. Sorry. Usually players who profess "good" characters don't see much beyond "Alistair is nice to me so I have to kill Loghain. Also, slaves." Yes, there are reasonable reasons to execute him but I haven't in a very long time. I'm at the point where Alistair trying to bully me into killing him is far more unacceptable.

Well, the "also, slaves" is THE reason I have never spared Loghain.

I usually play elves, of the three origins. Of all of Logain's crimes, my elven warden could not care less for Calian or Fereldan noblemen losing their priviliges -or getting poisoned. He barely knew Duncan, and none of the other dead wardens. And my mages would quite probably have been part of the mage rebellion if they had stayed in the tower.

But selling elves (in the city elf case, my own family) to Tevinter blood mages -also known as the elven ancestral archenemies??? Sorry, dude, you have just turned into just another boss battle on my path to the Archdemon.

My other game has been noble human, so, with his entire family dead thanks to Loghain's buddy, cmpasion is the furthest of mymind... I always meant to start a dwarven game, whom would spare Logain (to get the achievement of no other reason), but I never seem to do...

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...
I agree that it's probably Howe's plan, but Loghain cannot possibly be oblivious to Howe's machinations. Otherwise I can add is easily manipulated by greedy, seflish men to the list of things that make Loghain look like a tool to me.

As Bryce Cousland also was.  Howe is given little credit, but should be given more for sheer audacity and cunning.  I do think Loghain was manipulated by him, though his political position after Ostagar left few other allies and Gaider has said that once committed, he was not a man to back down.

Of course I could care less if you find him a "tool."

You don't protect the daughter you raised to be the queen-consort from doing her duty merely out of fatherly protectiveness, especially not if you intend to put her on the throne again. Or is he going to push her aside every time he sees trouble ahead?

Yes.  Why not?  He did it nearly his whole life with Maric. 

There's quite a bit of circular reasoning in there. In your vision Loghain is not ambitious, which is why the "King Loghain" is just the wishful thinking of a Loghain fanboy lowly messenger, Howe has a crown made behind Loghain's back and I will lead us through this in a strictly military sense (which makes us wonder why you are a regent and block the voting of the Landsmeet) and ... oh look, no indication of his ambition at all.

I think he had begun to believe his own press, that he was in fact a national hero, and when Ferelden was in crisis he saw it as a necessity that he step in because there was no one else who could get the job done.  It's a kind of personal ambition, I grant.  More like hubris.  As I pointed out, he's vastly relieved when the responsibility is taken away, unlike Anora who really wants the spotlight.

Modifié par Addai67, 07 juillet 2011 - 03:45 .

[nos_astra]

Addai67 wrote...
As Bryce Cousland also was.  Howe is given little credit, but should be given more for sheer audacity and cunning.  I do think Loghain was manipulated by him, though his political position after Ostagar left few other allies and Gaider has said that once committed, he was not a man to back down.

Bryce Cousland didn't know Howe has already slaughtered the second most important family in Ferelden. Bryce Cousland also didn't know Howe was hiring assassins to kill innocent people that escaped the desaster that was Ostagar. And he didn't make him his right hand man, handing him a templar who became inconvenient to be dealt with (brother of a very influential noblewoman, and what on earth did he expect Howe to do with Irminric after the man friggin' killed the Cousland family).

Addai67 wrote...
Of course I could care less if you find him a "tool."

I know. I'm sure deep down inside you appreciate how I didn't try to pass it off as a fact.

Yes.  Why not?  He did it nearly his whole life with Maric.

Protected Maric from his duties? Like when he manipulated him into murdering his lover because he needed to grow as a man and a king? And persuaded Maric and Rowan to honour their betrothal for the sake of the kingdom? Who spent years apart from his wife and daughter, at court in Denerim no less? Who betrothed his very young daughter to the king's son so she would be queen one day?

Who still cooperated with Howe after learning of the slaughter of Highever?

Does this look like a man who would risk ruining his daughter's political career in a sudden bout of fatherly protectiveness?

I agree, it adds to the character, but you can't just tack it on like that.

... unlike Anora who really wants the spotlight.

Funny, how Anora stands back and watches while her father is ruining everything she has built up, for one year.
Funny, how she seems so isolated that Howe can lock her up for months without any repercussions.

Funny, how both, Anora and Loghain, are easily outsmarted by Howe. Seems Howe's right after all, he deserved more, he's clearly the most intelligent man in Ferelden.

Modifié par klarabella, 08 juillet 2011 - 09:47 .

[Addai]

He didn't believe he was "ruining" Anora's throne, he believed he was protecting it.

But, I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue, other than "Loghain sucks." That you should be able to conscript Howe? I'm sure some would have liked the option.

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
Bryce Cousland didn't know Howe has already slaughtered the second most important family in Ferelden. Bryce Cousland also didn't know Howe was hiring assassins to kill innocent people that escaped the desaster that was Ostagar. And he didn't make him his right hand man, handing him a templar who became inconvenient to be dealt with (brother of a very influential noblewoman, and what on earth did he expect Howe to do with Irminric after the man friggin' killed the Cousland family).

Bryce did not desperately need an ally that has an army intact in the middle of a civil war and a potential two front war, and that kept taking over lands that he is forced to grant after the fact. Nor did he need an ally he is sure is againt Orlais.

Does this look like a man who would risk ruining his daughter's political career in a sudden bout of fatherly protectiveness?

I think it's the complete opposite. That he is ruining his own career, while keeping his daughter out of it, so that she can continue after what happened. I don't think Loghain wanted Anora to be implicated in what he did and is forced to do in the civil war, that would make her continuing her career very difficult. 

And true enough, the Landsmeet can reject Loghain, but accept Anora without hesitation because he protected her from being implicated with him. I think in his own mind, after saving Ferelden, he would step down and let Anora, who would have been clean of what he did, run the show.

Was it the most efficient or smartest thing in the world? No, he was politically incompetent and Anora being allowed to be more active could have alleviated a lot (though I believe that the civil war was unavoidable). But it's fatherly protectivness to protect his daughter's political career and not the opposite imo.

Funny, how Anora stands back and watches while her father is ruining everything she has built up, for one year.
Funny, how she seems so isolated that Howe can lock her up for months without any repercussions.

Funny, how both, Anora and Loghain, are easily outsmarted by Howe. Seems Howe's right after all, he deserved more, he's clearly the most intelligent man in Ferelden.

Actually, Anora tries to communicate with the bannorn to reach a compromise. The idiots that no one talks about in Loghain debates, refused.

Lock her up for months? Where did you get that?
Furthermore the entire scenario makes no sense and I think it's Anora that engineered this. Why would Howe ever let her servant just go?

They are not outsmarted by Howe. They are out-maneuvred in some ways because they have bigger fish to deal with. Howe took advantage of the chaos to advance himself and that is smart. Doesn't make him smarter than those who had bigger concerns than personal greed. Turning against Howe would have been the single most imbecilic thing Loghain could have done.  And Anora had no army to even consider doing that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juillet 2011 - 03:43 .