320 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

ipgd wrote...

All character development is ongoing.

Yeah, I'm really not buying that Alistair-hardened/reaction at the Landsmeet is some kind of A/B standard for character development, and that Anders' arc in DAA/DA2 did not cross this "B" state threshold.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 juillet 2011 - 11:44 .

[OdanUrr]

“We're not quarrelling! We're in complete agreement! We hate each other!”

Nanette Fabray (b. 1920) U.S. actress

“Where two discourse, if the one's anger rise,
The man who lets the contest fall is wise.”

Euripides (480? - 406? B.C.) Greek tragedian

[ipgd]

DreGregoire wrote...

It is, imo, part of the crisis but I don't believe that he has completed the crisis, or maybe dealt with how the crisis changes who he is. Now we just sound cryptic.

You originally stated that you don't believe Anders changed at all. Which is it?

I'd personally say that a willingness to forsake the cause that drove his entire character for the previous six years is a pretty significant change myself, but hey, what do I know? It's not like it comes out of nowhere; all of the dialogue with him in Act III show his mental instability and his loss of self-confidence.

Friendship Anders is similarly changed. Where in Act I and II he voices great doubts and apprehensions about his decision to merge with Justice, by Act III he has accepted it and further assimilates himself into Justice.

He changes gradually in all three acts, each path ultimately culminating in the post-Chantry events, but by that point both versions of Anders are significantly different people from who they were at the beginning of the game, and even more different from each other. They could not go "either way" at that point; by the end of the game, Anders is fundamentally different.

[Morroian]

csfteeeer wrote...

Jesus Christ People, Can't you just ignore this Guy?

He's been Kissing DA2's A** non-stop for a while now, Just Ignore cause he'll just keep making threads about how DA2 is great in DAO is crap and Blah blah blah.

So what, the fact is the discussion has become quite interesting.

[DreGregoire]

In response to ipgd:

Ah yes because when something happens or I do something in reallife I immediately see and understand how it changes me (without any processing time) or if it changes me at all. Because after all Anders/Justice and I aren't thinking, reasoning individuals. Sorry but that isn't how things work for me.

[upsettingshorts]

Whether or not you recognize and are conscious of a change does not mean it has not already taken place, or witnessed as a change by an outside observer.

DreGregoire wrote...

 Because after all Anders/Justice and I aren't thinking, reasoning individuals

What does this mean?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 juillet 2011 - 11:54 .

[ipgd]

DreGregoire wrote...

In response to ipgd:

Ah yes because when something happens or I do something in reallife I immediately see and understand how it changes me (without any processing time) or if it changes me at all. Because after all Anders/Justice and I aren't thinking, reasoning individuals. Sorry but that isn't how things work for me.

So, wait, what? Because you didn't notice the change until now, it never happened? You aren't the Ultimate Quantum Observer of character analysis, you know.

Modifié par ipgd, 02 juillet 2011 - 11:56 .

[DreGregoire]

ipgd wrote...

He changes gradually in all three acts, each path ultimately culminating in the post-Chantry events, but by that point both versions of Anders are significantly different people from who they were at the beginning of the game, and even more different from each other. They could not go "either way" at that point; by the end of the game, Anders is fundamentally different.

I do see where you are coming from but my issue is permanance. Are these truly changes to his core being or are they just temporary reactions to the situations.

[DreGregoire]

d

Modifié par DreGregoire, 04 juillet 2011 - 08:50 .

[DreGregoire]

ipgd wrote...

So, wait, what? Because you didn't notice the change until now, it never happened?

Sorry if you thought that was what I was saying, the point I was trying to get across is that I believe those reactions/behavoirs are temporary. I understand that you may not agree, it is just my take on things

[DreGregoire]

*tries to leave again.* I'm sorry people but I think we have totally derailed this topic. I've enjoyed interacting with you all immensely. Keep well.

[Xalen]

DreGregoire wrote...
Are these truly changes to his core being

That's kind of the point, no?

Well, this is certainly a refreshing change from "he was totally different in DAA" and "he's just a terrorist I hate him" discussions, but I'm thoroughly confused at some of presented arguments

[ipgd]

DreGregoire wrote...

I do see where you are coming from but my issue is permanance. Are these truly changes to his core being or are they just temporary reactions to the situations.

Given that templar rivalry Anders is heavily implied to have killed himself after the game (supported by the fact Varric's "all except for X" romance line does not fire for romanced, templar-sided Anders), I'd say, uh... doesn't get much more permanent than that.

What makes you think these changes would be temporary? In the case of the post-chantry dialogue, the stimulus is exactly the same; the difference is in the prior six years of conditioning friend/rival Anders have had through Hawke's influence. Their reactions are wildly different, and I see no indication that either version of him would be likely to randomly regress past that point considering every bit of dialogue leads up to and demonstrates those changes outright.

[DreGregoire]

Ugh come on I'm trying to eat here. My food is getting cold in between shovel sessions. LOL.

At ipgd. I feel that they are not because of the huge climatic event that happens. Despite what has come before. Again I can see your view if you look at just the impact of the pc on Anders, but I tend to look at the whole. It could be a failing of mine, but it's not easy to change me.

At Xalen, I'm sorry I'm not sure how to better explain myself to you to help you understand my particular brand of crazy. Feel free to IM me outside of this thread.

Take care all

[ipgd]

DreGregoire wrote...

I feel that they are not because of the huge climatic event that happens.

These changes are thoroughly indicated before that huge, climactic event.

Furthermore, those changes... are the entire reason that climactic event happens.

[upsettingshorts]

samtoswarden wrote...

Varric you mean the lier?HA your funny but really Varric come on this dude get his ass handed to him by his own brother got in trouble and had the nerve to be a filthy lier and his better?tell me another joke

Did you play the same game?

[Persephone]

samtoswarden wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Filament wrote...

I maintain that Oghren was a more developed character than people gave him credit for. Awakening kind of threw that under the bus, perhaps. (a smidge of further development drowned out by a sea of mindless comic relief)

And Varric totally owns him, both when it comes to making me laugh AND as a character with more depth than initially assumed.

Varric is my fave Bioware character of all time. (Tie with Loghain, but Loggy didn't get enough screen time)

Varric you mean the lier?HA your funny but really Varric come on this dude get his ass handed to him by his own brother got in trouble and had the nerve to be a filthy lier and his better?tell me another joke

*Facepalm*

What's a "lier"? 

Other than that......I have no words.......

[DreGregoire]

ipgd wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

I feel that they are not because of the huge climatic event that happens.

These changes are thoroughly indicated before that huge, climactic event.

Furthermore, those changes... are the entire reason that climactic event happens.

I always got the impression that Anders planned that all from the very beginning. I believe it's the reason he went to Kirkwall in the first place. I don't believe that the changes have any bearing on that event.

[Mr.House]

samtoswarden wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Filament wrote...

I maintain that Oghren was a more developed character than people gave him credit for. Awakening kind of threw that under the bus, perhaps. (a smidge of further development drowned out by a sea of mindless comic relief)

And Varric totally owns him, both when it comes to making me laugh AND as a character with more depth than initially assumed.

Varric is my fave Bioware character of all time. (Tie with Loghain, but Loggy didn't get enough screen time)

Varric you mean the lier?HA your funny but really Varric come on this dude get his ass handed to him by his own brother got in trouble and had the nerve to be a filthy lier and his better?tell me another joke

What game did you play?

[Persephone]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

samtoswarden wrote...

Varric you mean the lier?HA your funny but really Varric come on this dude get his ass handed to him by his own brother got in trouble and had the nerve to be a filthy lier and his better?tell me another joke

Did you play the same game?

I often ask myself that very question.......hasn't stopped since release day. Actually, the bashing started way earlier.

[DreGregoire]

Persephone wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

samtoswarden wrote...

Varric you mean the lier?HA your funny but really Varric come on this dude get his ass handed to him by his own brother got in trouble and had the nerve to be a filthy lier and his better?tell me another joke

Did you play the same game?

I often ask myself that very question.......hasn't stopped since release day. Actually, the bashing started way earlier.

I constantly have to stop myself from typing those same words. (not today though) But I guess we are bound to see things differently. It's what makes humans so unique.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 03 juillet 2011 - 12:24 .

[Mr.House]

Persephone wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

samtoswarden wrote...

Varric you mean the lier?HA your funny but really Varric come on this dude get his ass handed to him by his own brother got in trouble and had the nerve to be a filthy lier and his better?tell me another joke

Did you play the same game?

I often ask myself that very question.......hasn't stopped since release day. Actually, the bashing started way earlier.

DA2 bashing started when DA2 was announced, I should know, I was one of the bashers

[upsettingshorts]

DreGregoire wrote...

I always got the impression that Anders planned that all from the very beginning. I believe it's the reason he went to Kirkwall in the first place

And what was this impression of yours based upon?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 03 juillet 2011 - 12:25 .

[ipgd]

DreGregoire wrote...

I always got the impression that Anders planned that all from the very beginning. I believe it's the reason he went to Kirkwall in the first place. I don't believe that the changes have any bearing on that event.

From what? What evidence do you have to support this hypothesis? What dialogues or banters from the game suggest that?

Stating something does not make it true. An argument is not persuasive without any facts or evidence to back it up.