320 réponses à ce sujet

[txgoldrush]

DreGregoire wrote...

On Anders: I guess if you consider that he tried to give Varric his pillow then he could be construed as moody, but I haven't witnessed the extreme behavior you spoke of.

http://dragonage.wik...Anders/Dialogue

Notice how his dialogue with the other characters becomes less friendly and more hostile by Act III. Espeically Varric, who he no longer jokes with.

When a character that was introduced as a comic relief character no longer wants to joke, thats significant character development.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 02 juillet 2011 - 08:22 .

[DreGregoire]

It's my opinion that how your pc behaves towards the companions in DA2 determines how they respond to you and around you; however, it doesn't change who they are. I can see why you see things the way you do, but I believe that these are characters set in their own ways that are not impacted greatly by external forces (not just your pc but the whole of their environment). I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on certain points. It's been great interacting with you.

[DreGregoire]

txgoldrush wrote...

http://dragonage.wik...Anders/Dialogue

Notice how his dialogue with the other characters becomes less friendly and more hostile by Act III. Espeically Varric, who he no longer jokes with.

When a character that was introduced as a comic relief character no longer wants to joke, thats significant character development.

I never viewed him as comic relief in DA2 that was Varric and the others; Anders was only comic relief in Awakenings. He was already changed when we met him on Hawke in Kirkwall. I found it difficult to get a gentle smile out of him before he resorted to seriousness again

Modifié par DreGregoire, 02 juillet 2011 - 08:27 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

i declare this argument invalid because anders is a ****e character

[alex90c]

Anders a comic relief character? What the hell?

magefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedom

is comic relief?

[Xalen]

Why do I do this? A month ago I promised myself never to argue with people about Anders anymore...I am weak.

A disclaimer: not answer to the posters above me

Well, this is just like I said on page 2:

Andres is also not so subtle to a degree that the game practically beats you on the head with character development, but most people don't notice that with all "he's a whiny emo and a terrorist" whining

It's funny people keep bringing up Anders, when in fact he is the companion whose friendship and rivalry differ most drastically. I'd think that would indirectly indicate that at least some of "character development" is present, but noooooo

the "show, don't tell" thing that OP is addressing is not about showing how character changes through their big plot-defining actions based on previous plot/PC actions/what have you. If you say "only Isabela develops because she may [this is a no spoilers forum, anyone noticed?] based on how you developed relationships with her" or "Anders doesn't develop because he always end up doing SPOILER", that's a bit silly. Because if I apply same logic to real life - no one around me really "develops". They all go to college, find a job, get married etc. Real life is pretty dull, and no matter what a unique snowflake you are, most people end up doing same thing on large scale.

And now I'm going to be flamed and called names for the above, just see...

"Show, don't tell" is about "Let me tell you about my life" versus "go live my life with me". Some people prefer the former, I prefer the latter. Opinions differ, but evidence should not be dismissed. I said countless times, that the amount of dialogue and development may be (and probably is) not enough for 7-year period, but it's still there.

Ugh, I should just let it go

Modifié par Xalen, 03 juillet 2011 - 01:56 .

[txgoldrush]

alex90c wrote...

Anders a comic relief character? What the hell?

magefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedom

is comic relief?

did you even play Awakenings?

[alex90c]

txgoldrush wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Anders a comic relief character? What the hell?

magefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedom

is comic relief?

did you even play Awakenings?

I don't really count Awakenings as his actual personality since it was retconned in to oblivion in Dragon Age 2.

[DreGregoire]

Thanks for the non-spoiler section reminder.

[Persephone]

alex90c wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Anders a comic relief character? What the hell?

magefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedom

is comic relief?

did you even play Awakenings?

I don't really count Awakenings as his actual personality since it was retconned in to oblivion in Dragon Age 2.

No. It really wasn't. TONS of foreshadowing in Awakening. (The anger and outrage is more subdued but it's there. And the banters/talks involving Justice.......playing Awakening again really made me notice those details even more)

[ipgd]

alex90c wrote...

I don't really count Awakenings as his actual personality since it was retconned in to oblivion in Dragon Age 2.

That is not what retcon means. Don't use words you don't understand.

[Rinji the Bearded]

alex90c wrote...

I don't really count Awakenings as his actual personality since it was retconned in to oblivion in Dragon Age 2.

No it's not a retcon.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 02 juillet 2011 - 08:58 .

[Mr.House]

alex90c wrote...

I don't really count Awakenings as his actual personality since it was retconned in to oblivion in Dragon Age 2.

• Anders: Why do spirits seek out mages? I've always wondered.
• Justice: You speak of demons. I am not a demon.
• Anders: Aren't demons simply spirits with unique and sparkling personalities?
• Justice: They have been perverted by their desires.
• Anders: But what do they want from mages?
• Justice: Perhaps they wish the same as I: silence.

───────

• Justice: I see that your feline companion remains with you.
• Anders: He seems happy enough. Isn't that right, Ser Pounce-a-lot?
• Ser Pounce-a-lot: (Meow!)
• Justice: To enslave another creature does not seem just.
• Anders: He's not a slave! He's a friend. And he's also a cat.
• Justice: A cat that lacks freedom.
• Anders: Just ignore him, Ser Pouce-a-lot. They don't have pets in the Fade, apparently.
• Ser Pounce-a-lot: (Meow!)

───────

• Justice: I understand that you struggle against your oppression, mage.
• Anders: I avoid my oppression. That's not quite the same thing, is it?
• Justice: Why do you not strike a blow against your oppressors? Ensure they can do this to no one else?
• Anders: Because it sounds difficult?
• Justice: Apathy is a weakness.
• Anders: So is death. I'm just saying.

───────

• Justice: I believe you have a responsibility to your fellow mages.
• Anders: That bit of self-righteousness is directed at me?
• Justice: You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act to free those who remain oppressed.
• Anders: Or I could mind my business, in case the Chantry comes knocking.
• Justice: But this is not right. You have an obligation.
• Anders: Yes, well... welcome to the world, spirit.

───────

• Anders: Are you saying that you could become a demon, Justice?
• Justice: I said no such thing.
• Anders: You said that demons were spirits perverted by their desires.
• Justice: I have no such desires.
• Anders: You must have some desires...
• Justice: I have none! Desist your questions!

───────

• Anders: I apologize, Justice. I didn't mean to suggest you would become a demon.
• Justice: I should certainly hope not.
• Anders: I just wondered what relation there is between spirits and demons. Demons are a worry to any mage.
• Justice: I do not know what makes demons as they are. Such evil angers me, but I do not understand it.
• Anders: Well, I hope you never come to understand.
• Justice: I as well, mage. More than you could possibly know.

There was no retcon.

[DreGregoire]

Persephone wrote...
 TONS of foreshadowing in Awakening. (The anger and outrage is more subdued but it's there. And the banters/talks involving Justice.......playing Awakening again really made me notice those details even more)

I was pleasantly amazed at how well Awakenings leads into what happens to Anders/Justice.

[KnightofPhoenix]

There is also Anders being much less forgiving to what the Baroness was doing (thinking she was impressive and strong), very similar to his comment to Leliana saying, with disdain, that magic was essentially only dangerous to non-mages.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 juillet 2011 - 09:08 .

[alex90c]

Persephone wrote...

alex90c wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Anders a comic relief character? What the hell?

magefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedom

is comic relief?

did you even play Awakenings?

I don't really count Awakenings as his actual personality since it was retconned in to oblivion in Dragon Age 2.

No. It really wasn't. TONS of foreshadowing in Awakening. (The anger and outrage is more subdued but it's there. And the banters/talks involving Justice.......playing Awakening again really made me notice those details even more)

sarcastic fun-loving mage > grumpy bastard happened during the period of what, I can't even remember how Anders reaching Kirkwall fits in the timeline. Doesn't Awakening and the first year of DA2 overlap?

[Persephone]

DreGregoire wrote...

Persephone wrote...
 TONS of foreshadowing in Awakening. (The anger and outrage is more subdued but it's there. And the banters/talks involving Justice.......playing Awakening again really made me notice those details even more)

I was pleasantly amazed at how well Awakenings leads into what happens to Anders/Justice.

Same. Much preferred it to the sudden personality switch after "hardening" someone with a rather callous one-liner.

[FJVP]

There was not a retcon to his personality, just in his beliefs: link. I guess he just got tired of being prodded by Justice and decided to grant his wishes.

[Mr.House]

alex90c wrote...

Persephone wrote...

alex90c wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Anders a comic relief character? What the hell?

magefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedom

is comic relief?

did you even play Awakenings?

I don't really count Awakenings as his actual personality since it was retconned in to oblivion in Dragon Age 2.

No. It really wasn't. TONS of foreshadowing in Awakening. (The anger and outrage is more subdued but it's there. And the banters/talks involving Justice.......playing Awakening again really made me notice those details even more)

sarcastic fun-loving mage > grumpy bastard happened during the period of what, I can't even remember how Anders reaching Kirkwall fits in the timeline. Doesn't Awakening and the first year of DA2 overlap?

We don't know how long a year is in Thedas, all we know is DAA takes place 6(or 8) months after DAO. Act 1 takes place a year after the events in DAO/DAA.

[ipgd]

    * Anders: Why do spirits seek out mages? I've always wondered.
    * Justice: You speak of demons. I am not a demon.
    * Anders: Aren't demons simply spirits with unique and sparkling personalities?
    * Justice: They have been perverted by their desires.
    * Anders: But what do they want from mages?
    * Justice: Perhaps they wish the same as I: silence.

    * Justice: I understand that you struggle against your oppression, mage.
    * Anders: I avoid my oppression. That's not quite the same thing, is it?
    * Justice: Why do you not strike a blow against your oppressors? Ensure they can do this to no one else?
    * Anders: Because it sounds difficult?
    * Justice: Apathy is a weakness.
    * Anders: So is death. I'm just saying.

    * Justice: I believe you have a responsibility to your fellow mages.
    * Anders: That bit of self-righteousness is directed at me?
    * Justice: You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act to free those who remain oppressed.
    * Anders: Or I could mind my business, in case the Chantry comes knocking.
    * Justice: But this is not right. You have an obligation.
    * Anders: Yes, well... welcome to the world, spirit.

    * Anders: Are you saying that you could become a demon, Justice?
    * Justice: I said no such thing.
    * Anders: You said that demons were spirits perverted by their desires.
    * Justice: I have no such desires.
    * Anders: You must have some desires...
    * Justice: I have none! Desist your questions!

    * Anders: I apologize, Justice. I didn't mean to suggest you would become a demon.
    * Justice: I should certainly hope not.
    * Anders: I just wondered what relation there is between spirits and demons. Demons are a worry to any mage.
    * Justice: I do not know what makes demons as they are. Such evil angers me, but I do not understand it.
    * Anders: Well, I hope you never come to understand.
    * Justice: I as well, mage. More than you could possibly know.

    * Velanna: What will happen to you once Kristoff's body has fully decayed?
    * Justice: I do not know. Perhaps I will be drawn back to the Fade?
    * Velanna: Or remain here, bound to the tiny motes of dust that once were Kristoff.
    * Justice: Do you think that's possible?
    * Velanna: I know less about this than you. How securely is your spirit bound to this body? Can you leave it?
    * Justice: I could, if I chose to.
    * Velanna: Do you want to leave it?
    * Justice: I... do not know anymore.

    * Velanna: It seems you actually like this world.
    * Justice: I do. I have had experiences I cannot even begin to explain.
    * Velanna: A pity that you'll soon fall apart.
    * Justice: I could find and inhabit another corpse. A female body might offer a different perspective, wouldn't you think?
    * Velanna: If I die in your presence, you stay away from my body, you hear me?
    * Justice: Your objection is noted.

    * Nathaniel: Will you ever need to switch bodies, Justice?
    * Justice: I did not even wish to possess this one. Why would I switch to another?
    * Nathaniel: You might need to. Unless you wish to look even more obviously like a corpse.
    * Justice: I...would prefer not to think of it.

    * Justice: This... thing you spoke of. Switching bodies.
    * Nathaniel: Not a favorite topic of yours, I take it?
    * Justice: Would such a thing be permitted? Would it not be considered... abominable?
    * Nathaniel: If they're dead, it's not as if they need the body, Justice.
    * Justice: But I can still feel the man who once lived. I know his body, his... It is not just a body.
    * Nathaniel: That's...good, isn't it? I'd rather you felt that way.
    * Justice: Perhaps you are right.

    * Nathaniel: What if you found a living body to possess?
    * Justice: Even if I knew how, I would not possess the living. Such is an act for demons.
    * Nathaniel: What if the person were willing?
    * Justice: Why would a mortal ever allow such a thing?
   
* Nathaniel: For life. For love. Perhaps together, you can do what they
cannot do alone. If you gave instead of taking, I would consider you no
demon.
    * Justice: It is...something to consider. Thank you, Nathaniel.

And then this gem:

"That ballista is conveniently placed, isn’t it? Well, I’m always up for a spot of iconoclasm!"

There was no retcon.

[Persephone]

alex90c wrote...

Persephone wrote...

alex90c wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Anders a comic relief character? What the hell?

magefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedom

is comic relief?

did you even play Awakenings?

I don't really count Awakenings as his actual personality since it was retconned in to oblivion in Dragon Age 2.

No. It really wasn't. TONS of foreshadowing in Awakening. (The anger and outrage is more subdued but it's there. And the banters/talks involving Justice.......playing Awakening again really made me notice those details even more)

sarcastic fun-loving mage > grumpy bastard happened during the period of what, I can't even remember how Anders reaching Kirkwall fits in the timeline. Doesn't Awakening and the first year of DA2 overlap?

Anders goes much deeper than a sarcastic fun loving mage if you read between the lines. Take his outrage when you click on that statue of Andraste. The facade falls for a moment. Anders uses sarcasm as a shield, a defense mechanism. His banters with Justice are also far deeper than sarcastic & fun loving. The seeds are there. Getting to know Justice fans the flames. Hepler's short story is the transition. In DAII's Act I his old humor & snark still appears while in Act II and esp. Act III, a darker force eradicates that defense mechanism completely.

[Blitzkrieg0811]

This issue has been beaten to death already. Next topic, please...

[alex90c]

Persephone wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Persephone wrote...

alex90c wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Anders a comic relief character? What the hell?

magefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedommagefreedom

is comic relief?

did you even play Awakenings?

I don't really count Awakenings as his actual personality since it was retconned in to oblivion in Dragon Age 2.

No. It really wasn't. TONS of foreshadowing in Awakening. (The anger and outrage is more subdued but it's there. And the banters/talks involving Justice.......playing Awakening again really made me notice those details even more)

sarcastic fun-loving mage > grumpy bastard happened during the period of what, I can't even remember how Anders reaching Kirkwall fits in the timeline. Doesn't Awakening and the first year of DA2 overlap?

Anders goes much deeper than a sarcastic fun loving mage if you read between the lines. Take his outrage when you click on that statue of Andraste. The facade falls for a moment. Anders uses sarcasm as a shield, a defense mechanism. His banters with Justice are also far deeper than sarcastic & fun loving. The seeds are there. Getting to know Justice fans the flames. Hepler's short story is the transition. In DAII's Act I his old humor & snark still appears while in Act II and esp. Act III, a darker force eradicates that defense mechanism completely.

i just found it quite hard to believe how he could be light-hearted in DA:A and turn in to an obnoxious bellend in DA2 over the period of what, a couple of months? he's been oppressed by the circle his entire life and yet his hate only fully manifests during that small period of time?

i'll go read the short story now though, maybe it'll enlighten me about his personality a bit more

[ipgd]

alex90c wrote...

sarcastic fun-loving mage > grumpy bastard happened during the period of what, I can't even remember how Anders reaching Kirkwall fits in the timeline. Doesn't Awakening and the first year of DA2 overlap?

The first year in Kirkwall takes place a year after Hawke arrives in Kirkwall. We have no idea how long it took them to get from Lothering to Gwaren and over to the free marches. Awakening is set 6 months after the events of DAO, and takes place over a couple of months at most.

An inability to employ any degree of observation is not an indication of a retcon. Character development is not a retcon. Do not use words you do not understand.