320 réponses à ce sujet

[Brockololly]

Persephone wrote...
No. It really wasn't. TONS of foreshadowing in Awakening. (The anger and outrage is more subdued but it's there. And the banters/talks involving Justice.......playing Awakening again really made me notice those details even more)

I get what you're saying but the whole argument of "Oh, Awakening totally foreshadows Anders turning into a total dour terrorist stick in the mud!" seems to me a bit like the people who look back at Nostradamus' prophecies and tie them to modern events, only after those events have happened.

I don't think many people were out screaming after Awakening saying Anders was TOTALLY going to become a Justice abomination and try to pull a Mage William Wallace "FREEEEDOOOOOM!" The more likely assumption would have been he settled down with a hot lady and chucked fireballs at passers by.

[jlb524]

txgoldrush wrote...

DAII characters may not have as deep backstories as Origin characters, at least all their interesting things you get to experience...you get to experience their growth, their trials, and their struggles....almost every character plays a role in the plot as well, especially Varric, Aveline, Isabela, and Anders. Instead of chatting with a character at base camp, you go on personal quests with them, then at set points you learn more about them. Its much better than just hearing it throigh boring talks at base. Also, their depth comes out at appropriate times in the story...such as Fenris's past, Varric's relationship with his brother, or Aveline's father. Gifts also lead to them telling more about themselves. The system is way more organic, makes the characters more multidimensional, and allow for more powerful and distinct character development (along with the superior but imperfect friendship/rivalry system). Could the characters use more backstory and depth when or if the format is used again? Yes. But the same ol Bioware formulas used in games past, like DAO, is way more flawed, and must go away.

Regarding characters: DAII SHOWS, DAO just TELLS.

I agree...I prefer this type of development.  I think they were able to do this by limiting dialog to specific locations and times within the game.  With dialog that can be initated at any time and place (ala Origins) you are limited to only discussing backstory/history and can't really tie it in to things that go on in the plot. 

However, I also agree with you and think DA2 could have done it better by adding in a bit of dialog that could be triggered at any place and anytime in the story...this could have been used to fill in the character backgrounds more.

[ipgd]

alex90c wrote...

i just found it quite hard to believe how he could be light-hearted in DA:A and turn in to an obnoxious bellend in DA2 over the period of what, a couple of months? he's been oppressed by the circle his entire life and yet his hate only fully manifests during that small period of time?

i'll go read the short story now though, maybe it'll enlighten me about his personality a bit more

It does not just manifest in a small period of time. His character in Awakening is not a one note, light-heated comic relief character. He deflects with sarcasm and uses humor as a defense mechanism. If you paid attention, you would notice.

He also spent a full year in solitary confinement. Read a little about the psychological effects of solitary confinement.

[por favor]

Blitzkrieg0811 wrote...



This issue has been beaten to death already. Next topic, please...

Hottie 

[upsettingshorts]

Brockololly wrote...

I get what you're saying but the whole argument of "Oh, Awakening totally foreshadows Anders turning into a total dour terrorist stick in the mud!" seems to me a bit like the people who look back at Nostradamus' prophecies and tie them to modern events, only after those events have happened.

I disagree.  Denying the foreshadowing seems to me a bit like the people who close their eyes, plug their ears, and hum loudly to themselves.

Brockololly wrote...

I don't think many people were out screaming after Awakening saying Anders was TOTALLY going to become a Justice abomination and try to pull a Mage William Wallace "FREEEEDOOOOOM!" The more likely assumption would have been he settled down with a hot lady and chucked fireballs at passers by.

That's not the point?  All that needed to be established was that he just might merge with Justice.  And that was done.

One he becomes an abomination, all bets are off.

[DreGregoire]

ipgd wrote...

alex90c wrote...

i just found it quite hard to believe how he could be light-hearted in DA:A and turn in to an obnoxious bellend in DA2 over the period of what, a couple of months? he's been oppressed by the circle his entire life and yet his hate only fully manifests during that small period of time?

i'll go read the short story now though, maybe it'll enlighten me about his personality a bit more

It does not just manifest in a small period of time. His character in Awakening is not a one note, light-heated comic relief character. He deflects with sarcasm and uses humor as a defense mechanism. If you paid attention, you would notice.

He also spent a full year in solitary confinement. Read a little about the psychological effects of solitary confinement.

Not to mention he isn't just Anders anymore. LOL

[Persephone]

ipgd wrote...

alex90c wrote...

i just found it quite hard to believe how he could be light-hearted in DA:A and turn in to an obnoxious bellend in DA2 over the period of what, a couple of months? he's been oppressed by the circle his entire life and yet his hate only fully manifests during that small period of time?

i'll go read the short story now though, maybe it'll enlighten me about his personality a bit more

It does not just manifest in a small period of time. His character in Awakening is not a one note, light-heated comic relief character. He deflects with sarcasm and uses humor as a defense mechanism. If you paid attention, you would notice.

He also spent a full year in solitary confinement. Read a little about the psychological effects of solitary confinement.

This. And he turns into that over the course of DAII, his personality changes a lot from Act I to III, IMHO some of the best writing for a character Bioware has ever done.

*Turns on flame shield*

[ipgd]

Brockololly wrote...

I get what you're saying but the whole argument of "Oh, Awakening totally foreshadows Anders turning into a total dour terrorist stick in the mud!" seems to me a bit like the people who look back at Nostradamus' prophecies and tie them to modern events, only after those events have happened.

I don't think many people were out screaming after Awakening saying Anders was TOTALLY going to become a Justice abomination and try to pull a Mage William Wallace "FREEEEDOOOOOM!" The more likely assumption would have been he settled down with a hot lady and chucked fireballs at passers by.

The point is not that is was the most obvious or likely character development path. The point is that it is heavily hinted through the dialogue in Awakening and that it is not just pulled out of their ass for a completely random 180 degree character flip. They planned this.

[Master Shiori]

Brockololly wrote...

Persephone wrote...
No. It really wasn't. TONS of foreshadowing in Awakening. (The anger and outrage is more subdued but it's there. And the banters/talks involving Justice.......playing Awakening again really made me notice those details even more)

I get what you're saying but the whole argument of "Oh, Awakening totally foreshadows Anders turning into a total dour terrorist stick in the mud!" seems to me a bit like the people who look back at Nostradamus' prophecies and tie them to modern events, only after those events have happened.

I don't think many people were out screaming after Awakening saying Anders was TOTALLY going to become a Justice abomination and try to pull a Mage William Wallace "FREEEEDOOOOOM!" The more likely assumption would have been he settled down with a hot lady and chucked fireballs at passers by.

It was implied that Anders and Justice might merge. What they'd do after that wasn't clear, aside from the fact that Justice wanted Anders to actively help mages.

So while you couldn't come out and say: "Anders will travel to Kirkwall, meet Hawke, blow up the Chantry and thus start a mage revolution", you could see that in the event of Janders happening, he (or they) would focus on helping mages in some way.

[alex90c]

right, that short story explained quite a lot.

and it sucks they had to ruin anders's character :/

[upsettingshorts]

alex90c wrote...

right, that short story explained quite a lot.

and it sucks they had to ruin anders's character :/

Right.  "Ruin."  

They tore him down and did what they did with him for dramatic effect.  And it succeeded. 

[ipgd]

They didn't ruin his character.

[Persephone]

alex90c wrote...

right, that short story explained quite a lot.

and it sucks they had to ruin anders's character :/

Ruin? Ruin how? 

By taking away his "Hey! I'm Alistair 2.0 for your next DA fix!" fame?

Yes, many actually thought this.

[Mr.House]

They didn't ruin him for me.

[erynnar]

Brockololly wrote...

Persephone wrote...
No. It really wasn't. TONS of foreshadowing in Awakening. (The anger and outrage is more subdued but it's there. And the banters/talks involving Justice.......playing Awakening again really made me notice those details even more)

I get what you're saying but the whole argument of "Oh, Awakening totally foreshadows Anders turning into a total dour terrorist stick in the mud!" seems to me a bit like the people who look back at Nostradamus' prophecies and tie them to modern events, only after those events have happened.

I don't think many people were out screaming after Awakening saying Anders was TOTALLY going to become a Justice abomination and try to pull a Mage William Wallace "FREEEEDOOOOOM!" The more likely assumption would have been he settled down with a hot lady and chucked fireballs at passers by.

LOL! This^ A warm and willing companion, or two, and shooting lightening at fools. 

And sorry Ms. P, but even Justice gets after him about not being more about mage freedom and he tells Justice, "welcome to the living world." He may have been angry, I would be, but he just wasn't that into rebellion. And there are several convos where that is apparent. So the case could be made that he wouldn't either.

[KnightofPhoenix]

alex90c wrote...

right, that short story explained quite a lot.

and it sucks they had to ruin anders's character :/

They ruined him as a person. They evolved him as a character. Imo.

[leggywillow]

Brockololly wrote...
I get what you're saying but the whole argument of "Oh, Awakening totally foreshadows Anders turning into a total dour terrorist stick in the mud!" seems to me a bit like the people who look back at Nostradamus' prophecies and tie them to modern events, only after those events have happened.

I don't think many people were out screaming after Awakening saying Anders was TOTALLY going to become a Justice abomination and try to pull a Mage William Wallace "FREEEEDOOOOOM!" The more likely assumption would have been he settled down with a hot lady and chucked fireballs at passers by.

Even if you don't buy that it was deliberate foreshadowing for Dragon Age 2, you still really can't deny that Awakening Anders was harboring a lot of rage and resentment that he covered up with humor.  I really don't understand how people seemed to miss that part of Anders' character and claim that he was just shallow comic relief.  It wasn't subtle or hidden.  It couldn't have been more obvious that he was deflecting with humor to hide his pain if David Gaider himself popped out of the screen and began beating the player with a gigantic sign.

[alex90c]

i don't mean ruin as in they made him suck, i mean how he just became unbelievably irritating. the whole "it's a shame you don't like me just because i'm a mage" conversation he has with carver where carver than tells him to stfu was pretty much the pinnacle of irritating for me, lol.

i suppose you could say i've learned to love to hate him?

[upsettingshorts]

erynnar wrote...

LOL! This^ A warm and willing companion, or two, and shooting lightening at fools. 

I find this position infuriatingly selfish and anti-storytelling. 

alex90c wrote...

i suppose you could say i've learned to love to hate him?

I'm pretty sure this was part of the plan.

He wasn't the party comic relief anymore.  Nor was he intended to be.  

He's an abomination now, with singular devotion to a cause. 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

They ruined him as a person. They evolved him as a character. Imo.

I would agree with this summary on the condition that they also ruined Justice as a spirit, but evolved him as a character as well.

They destroyed each other, and it was great.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 juillet 2011 - 09:26 .

[ipgd]

erynnar wrote...

LOL! This^ A warm and willing companion, or two, and shooting lightening at fools. 

And sorry Ms. P, but even Justice gets after him about not being more about mage freedom and he tells Justice, "welcome to the living world." He may have been angry, I would be, but he just wasn't that into rebellion. And there are several convos where that is apparent. So the case could be made that he wouldn't either.

Did you miss the part where he merged with that spirit?

When did it become impossible for characters to change their opinions on issues?

[OdanUrr]

Brockololly wrote...

(...) and try to pull a Mage William Wallace "FREEEEDOOOOOM!"

I would have loved to see this. It would have been the only cherishable moment from Act III.

[erynnar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

erynnar wrote...

LOL! This^ A warm and willing companion, or two, and shooting lightening at fools. 

I find this position infuriatingly selfish and anti-storytelling. 

alex90c wrote...

i suppose you could say i've learned to love to hate him?

I'm pretty sure this was part of the plan.

He wasn't the party comic relief anymore.  Nor was he intended to be.  

He's an abomination now, with singular devotion to a cause. 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

They ruined him as a person. They evolved him as a character. Imo.

I would agree with this summary on the condition that they also ruined Justice as a spirit, but evolved him as a character as well.

They destroyed each other, and it was great.

I just find it amusing.

[erynnar]

ipgd wrote...

erynnar wrote...

LOL! This^ A warm and willing companion, or two, and shooting lightening at fools. 

And sorry Ms. P, but even Justice gets after him about not being more about mage freedom and he tells Justice, "welcome to the living world." He may have been angry, I would be, but he just wasn't that into rebellion. And there are several convos where that is apparent. So the case could be made that he wouldn't either.

Did you miss the part where he merged with that spirit?

When did it become impossible for characters to change their opinions on issues?

Did you miss the part in Awakenings where Anders told Justice he wasn't interested in being William Wallace? Or the part where Justice mentions that he can't merge with anyone else?

You can disagree with me without being condescending.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

They ruined him as a person. They evolved him as a character. Imo.

I would agree with this summary on the condition that they also ruined Justice as a spirit, but evolved him as a character as well.

They destroyed each other, and it was great.

Indeed. They twisted my naive expectation of Justice becoming "wiser", by turning him into vengeance. And I loved it.

I would have preferred more itneraction with Vengeance and I didn't think Anders was handled as well as he could have been. But I like the concept and the execution, I thought, was decent.