320 réponses à ce sujet

[Persephone]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

erynnar wrote...

LOL! This^ A warm and willing companion, or two, and shooting lightening at fools. 

I find this position infuriatingly selfish and anti-storytelling. 

alex90c wrote...

i suppose you could say i've learned to love to hate him?

I'm pretty sure this was part of the plan.

He wasn't the party comic relief anymore.  Nor was he intended to be.  

He's an abomination now, with singular devotion to a cause. 

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

They ruined him as a person. They evolved him as a character. Imo.

I would agree with this summary on the condition that they also ruined Justice as a spirit, but evolved him as a character as well.

They destroyed each other, and it was great.

This. Exactly. When a certain thing happened in Act III....I was in tears...shaking. (My Canon Lady Hawke romanced him) Nothing in DAO had such an impact on me. Not even Loghain's Redeemer ending.

[Persephone]

erynnar wrote...

ipgd wrote...

erynnar wrote...

LOL! This^ A warm and willing companion, or two, and shooting lightening at fools. 

And sorry Ms. P, but even Justice gets after him about not being more about mage freedom and he tells Justice, "welcome to the living world." He may have been angry, I would be, but he just wasn't that into rebellion. And there are several convos where that is apparent. So the case could be made that he wouldn't either.

Did you miss the part where he merged with that spirit?

When did it become impossible for characters to change their opinions on issues?

Did you miss the part in Awakenings where Anders told Justice he wasn't interested in being William Wallace? Or the part where Justice mentions that he can't merge with anyone else?

You can disagree with me without being condescending.

Eh....Anders "Welcome to the real world!" was sarcasm, born out of powerless rage. Years of abuse.

Justice never says he CANNOT merge with anyone else. He merely doubts the ethical part of it.

[Mr.House]

Persephone wrote...
This. Exactly. When a certain thing happened in Act III....I was in tears...shaking. (My Canon Lady Hawke romanced him) Nothing in DAO had such an impact on me. Not even Loghain's Redeemer ending.

A couple of things did that for me.

1: A  certain lady comnig back to give the tome back
2: A certain sad death in All that Remains
3: What Anders does in Act 3

[ipgd]

erynnar wrote...

Did you miss the part in Awakenings where Anders told Justice he wasn't interested in being William Wallace?

He changed his mind. Justice convinced him. Sometimes people, real people, do this.

It was not an unbelievable change. Anders had a lot of pent up anger at the templars. The only thing Justice did was convince him to want freedom for all mages, and not just himself.

Or the part where Justice mentions that he can't merge with anyone else?

He never says he can't merge with anyone else. In fact, in the banters I posted previously, it's blatantly suggested that Nathaniel convinces him to strongly consider it.

[Persephone]

Mr.House wrote...

Persephone wrote...
This. Exactly. When a certain thing happened in Act III....I was in tears...shaking. (My Canon Lady Hawke romanced him) Nothing in DAO had such an impact on me. Not even Loghain's Redeemer ending.

A couple of things did that for me.

1: A  certain lady comnig back to give the tome back
2: A certain sad death in All that Remains
3: What Anders does in Act 3

Oh yes. And a certain even involving Sunshine/Carver in Act I...and when it was brought up again by Hawke in Fenris' Act III quest.........(Loved that little touch......now THAT would get through to Fenris)

[erynnar]

Persephone wrote...

erynnar wrote...

ipgd wrote...

erynnar wrote...

LOL! This^ A warm and willing companion, or two, and shooting lightening at fools. 

And sorry Ms. P, but even Justice gets after him about not being more about mage freedom and he tells Justice, "welcome to the living world." He may have been angry, I would be, but he just wasn't that into rebellion. And there are several convos where that is apparent. So the case could be made that he wouldn't either.

Did you miss the part where he merged with that spirit?

When did it become impossible for characters to change their opinions on issues?

Did you miss the part in Awakenings where Anders told Justice he wasn't interested in being William Wallace? Or the part where Justice mentions that he can't merge with anyone else?

You can disagree with me without being condescending.

Eh....Anders "Welcome to the real world!" was sarcasm, born out of powerless rage. Years of abuse.

Justice never says he CANNOT merge with anyone else. He merely doubts the ethical part of it.

Well, then an argument can be made that what happened to Anders and Justice would not have happened as well. I still say they should have made a totally new character, a mage that grew up and escaped from the circle and Meredith's tyrrany. I would have felt closer to the story and the ending (me, as in imho). I would have had better insight into what was going on, how Meredith acted and who she was, same for Orsino.

I took Anders and as saying no to Justice, or Justice never asking due to the ethics. Like I said, just as easy to argue for or against what happened.

[leggywillow]

ipgd wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Did you miss the part in Awakenings where Anders told Justice he wasn't interested in being William Wallace?

He changed his mind. Justice convinced him. Sometimes people, real people, do this.

It was not an unbelievable change. Anders had a lot of pent up anger at the templars. The only thing Justice did was convince him to want freedom for all mages, and not just himself.

This, this, this.

People are confusing "character development and/or growth" with "retcon" and it is absolutely maddening.

[Persephone]

leggywillow wrote...

ipgd wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Did you miss the part in Awakenings where Anders told Justice he wasn't interested in being William Wallace?

He changed his mind. Justice convinced him. Sometimes people, real people, do this.

It was not an unbelievable change. Anders had a lot of pent up anger at the templars. The only thing Justice did was convince him to want freedom for all mages, and not just himself.

This, this, this.

People are confusing "character development and/or growth" with "retcon" and it is absolutely maddening.

*Persephone approves +100*

And +10 because of your pretty Fem-Shep there!

[Persephone]

erynnar wrote...

Persephone wrote...

erynnar wrote...

ipgd wrote...

erynnar wrote...

LOL! This^ A warm and willing companion, or two, and shooting lightening at fools. 

And sorry Ms. P, but even Justice gets after him about not being more about mage freedom and he tells Justice, "welcome to the living world." He may have been angry, I would be, but he just wasn't that into rebellion. And there are several convos where that is apparent. So the case could be made that he wouldn't either.

Did you miss the part where he merged with that spirit?

When did it become impossible for characters to change their opinions on issues?

Did you miss the part in Awakenings where Anders told Justice he wasn't interested in being William Wallace? Or the part where Justice mentions that he can't merge with anyone else?

You can disagree with me without being condescending.

Eh....Anders "Welcome to the real world!" was sarcasm, born out of powerless rage. Years of abuse.

Justice never says he CANNOT merge with anyone else. He merely doubts the ethical part of it.

Well, then an argument can be made that what happened to Anders and Justice would not have happened as well. I still say they should have made a totally new character, a mage that grew up and escaped from the circle and Meredith's tyrrany. I would have felt closer to the story and the ending (me, as in imho). I would have had better insight into what was going on, how Meredith acted and who she was, same for Orsino.

I took Anders and as saying no to Justice, or Justice never asking due to the ethics. Like I said, just as easy to argue for or against what happened.

Not really. Justice CLEARLY is considering it after that banter with Nate. And Anders is the perfect candidate. It works brilliantly.

Now, your idea is very interesting too. But here I prefer how DAII handled it.

[upsettingshorts]

erynnar wrote...

Well, then an argument can be made that what happened to Anders and Justice would not have happened as well.

Then make one, showing your work.  Like ipgd and others were doing.  Stating that a counter-argument might exist isn't really a strong counter-argument.  Not that I'm the ultimate arbiter of such things, that's just my opinion.

Here's what I mean - if you're going to object to say, the interpretation that states that Nathaniel seems to convince Justice that merging with a mortal just might work out - post their banters and explain why. 

Otherwise it's simply "Well, I didn't see that" in response to people who went back looking for it and found it.

I wouldn't be in favor of the new character approach myself.  I like the whole "breaking down characters for effect" thing, hard to break down someone as effectively if they haven't been established.  They'd have to establish New DAA Anders and then turn him into DA2 Anders within the latter game exclusively.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 juillet 2011 - 09:41 .

[ipgd]

erynnar wrote...

Well, then an argument can be made that what happened to Anders and Justice would not have happened as well.

If you are completely against the concept of character development, sure.

I still say they should have made a totally new character, a mage that grew up and escaped from the circle and Meredith's tyrrany.

It would not have had the same effect. Anders's character in Awakening exists to inform the tragedy of his character arc in DA2. Without knowing what he was like before merging with Justice, we would have no idea what he really means when he says it was a horrible mistake. He was purposefully established as a likeable character so he could be later torn down to dramatic effect.

A new character would not have had that benefit. We would have no idea what he really lost. With Anders, we do.

[DreGregoire]

The developers did an excellent job of keeping the secret safe from people in Awakenings, but going back and replaying contains many moments where you can see the why of events between Awakenings and DA2. The conversations between Justice and Anders really had a impact on Anders, even though (to me) at the time they didn't appear to.

I am slowing revising my definition of develop, because obviously I only use the term (previously) in a manner that refers to positive drastic change in a persons character. So in that case I can see where others see development (negatively and positively, but not in relation just to character) in the DA2 characters; however, I don't agree that there is less of that in DAO . If I change my opinion is that me developing? I don't believe it is. I believe it's just me viewing things differently. It doesn't change my character. When I look at Anders I see his character and I don't believe his character changes from the beginning of DA2 to the end of DA2.

Did that make any sense? *sighs*

Upsettingshorts wrote...

He's an abomination now, 

Bite your tongue! LOL. Blasphemy ! Justice is not a demon, just a spirit. *smirks*

[erynnar]

She is a prettyFem-Shep!

And my apologies, if I am not clear. I need a nap. I am not claiming ret-con or not that I Anders turning into William Wallace mage terrorist couldn't happen. I am arguing they could and should have done a better job of setting it up in DA2.

The tells were subtle in Awakenings and Anders could have gone either way. More of the happy go lucky Anders who sinks into what he became by Act 3 would have made more sense. Not insta-broody I'm a whiner Anders from Act 1, when supposedly he and Justice had just merged timeline wise.

[upsettingshorts]

DreGregoire wrote...

Bite your tongue! LOL. Blasphemy ! Justice is not a demon, just a spirit. *smirks*

Justice doth protest too much.

[Persephone]

ipgd wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Well, then an argument can be made that what happened to Anders and Justice would not have happened as well.

If you are completely against the concept of character development, sure.

I still say they should have made a totally new character, a mage that grew up and escaped from the circle and Meredith's tyrrany.

It would not have had the same effect. Anders's character in Awakening exists to inform the tragedy of his character arc in DA2. Without knowing what he was like before merging with Justice, we would have no idea what he really means when he says it was a horrible mistake. He was purposefully established as a likeable character so he could be later torn down to dramatic effect.

A new character would not have had that benefit. We would have no idea what he really lost. With Anders, we do.

This. SO this. While I agree that DAII's plot writing could use some polish (Esp. Act III), its character writing had more moments of brilliance than any character of DAO did, IMHO. Well, except Loghain. (Disregarding the subtle as a sledgehammer "eeeeeeeeeeevil" war council scene)

[Mr.House]

The fact of the matter is this, you can not like what they did to Anders/Justice but don't say it makes no sense/a retcon ect when me and ipgd have posted proof that foreshadowed what would happen to Anders/Justice.

[alex90c]

Persephone wrote...

ipgd wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Well, then an argument can be made that what happened to Anders and Justice would not have happened as well.

If you are completely against the concept of character development, sure.

I still say they should have made a totally new character, a mage that grew up and escaped from the circle and Meredith's tyrrany.

It would not have had the same effect. Anders's character in Awakening exists to inform the tragedy of his character arc in DA2. Without knowing what he was like before merging with Justice, we would have no idea what he really means when he says it was a horrible mistake. He was purposefully established as a likeable character so he could be later torn down to dramatic effect.

A new character would not have had that benefit. We would have no idea what he really lost. With Anders, we do.

This. SO this. While I agree that DAII's plot writing could use some polish (Esp. Act III), its character writing had more moments of brilliance than any character of DAO did, IMHO. Well, except Loghain. (Disregarding the subtle as a sledgehammer "eeeeeeeeeeevil" war council scene)

oh come on, DA:O had amazing characters like oghren!

oghren <_<

[Persephone]

erynnar wrote...

She is a prettyFem-Shep!

And my apologies, if I am not clear. I need a nap. I am not claiming ret-con or not that I Anders turning into William Wallace mage terrorist couldn't happen. I am arguing they could and should have done a better job of setting it up in DA2.

The tells were subtle in Awakenings and Anders could have gone either way. More of the happy go lucky Anders who sinks into what he became by Act 3 would have made more sense. Not insta-broody I'm a whiner Anders from Act 1, when supposedly he and Justice had just merged timeline wise.

Having read Hepler's short story, I have to disagree there. Utterly.

And he's not a broody whiner in Act I. Given what happened at the Chantry (I still tear up at his "No!" when Karl turns around) , he has EVERY right not to be happy & funny for a while. (And he still has his humor in Act I, he delivers some delicious snark!)

[Mr.House]

alex90c wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ipgd wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Well, then an argument can be made that what happened to Anders and Justice would not have happened as well.

If you are completely against the concept of character development, sure.

I still say they should have made a totally new character, a mage that grew up and escaped from the circle and Meredith's tyrrany.

It would not have had the same effect. Anders's character in Awakening exists to inform the tragedy of his character arc in DA2. Without knowing what he was like before merging with Justice, we would have no idea what he really means when he says it was a horrible mistake. He was purposefully established as a likeable character so he could be later torn down to dramatic effect.

A new character would not have had that benefit. We would have no idea what he really lost. With Anders, we do.

This. SO this. While I agree that DAII's plot writing could use some polish (Esp. Act III), its character writing had more moments of brilliance than any character of DAO did, IMHO. Well, except Loghain. (Disregarding the subtle as a sledgehammer "eeeeeeeeeeevil" war council scene)

oh come on, DA:O had amazing characters like oghren!

oghren <_<

I hate Oggy so much that he hurts the cast of DAO, even the ones I like. That's how much I hate him.

[ipgd]

DreGregoire wrote...

When I look at Anders I see his character and I don't believe his character changes from the beginning of DA2 to the end of DA2.

It does, though.

Compare:

Act 2
    * Anders: Boiling in oil.
    * Varric: Too prosaic. Trapped in a cave with hungry bears, right at the spring thaw.
    * Anders: That lets him off too easy. Dipped in molten gold and left as a statue in the Viscount's Keep.
    * Varric: Ooh. That's poetic!
    * Hawke: What are you two talking about?
    * Varric: What to do to Bartrand when I find him.
    * Anders: Any suggestions?

Act 3
    * Varric: So, the knight-commander... Boiling in oil? That one never gets old.
    * Anders: This is past time for joking.
    * Varric: I'm helping you indulge in elaborate revenge fantasies. I think it's good for you.
    * Anders: Meredith will die. Do not doubt that.
    * Varric: Go away, Justice. Can Anders come out and play?
    * Anders: Stop.
    * Varric: You are no fun anymore.

[Persephone]

alex90c wrote...

Persephone wrote...

ipgd wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Well, then an argument can be made that what happened to Anders and Justice would not have happened as well.

If you are completely against the concept of character development, sure.

I still say they should have made a totally new character, a mage that grew up and escaped from the circle and Meredith's tyrrany.

It would not have had the same effect. Anders's character in Awakening exists to inform the tragedy of his character arc in DA2. Without knowing what he was like before merging with Justice, we would have no idea what he really means when he says it was a horrible mistake. He was purposefully established as a likeable character so he could be later torn down to dramatic effect.

A new character would not have had that benefit. We would have no idea what he really lost. With Anders, we do.

This. SO this. While I agree that DAII's plot writing could use some polish (Esp. Act III), its character writing had more moments of brilliance than any character of DAO did, IMHO. Well, except Loghain. (Disregarding the subtle as a sledgehammer "eeeeeeeeeeevil" war council scene)

oh come on, DA:O had amazing characters like oghren!

oghren <_<

Heh, Oghren. Funny the first time. Annoying ever since.

Wynne...a parody of the wise old sage, annoying as hell.

Ano-er...Alistair.......

Vico---er...Morrigan.

Etc.

[alex90c]

"look at me make a complete mockery of the grey warden joining!"

screw you oghren, I wanted mhairi

Modifié par alex90c, 02 juillet 2011 - 09:49 .

[upsettingshorts]

Oghren is a cruelly misunderstood character. He is a tragic figure, and the Warden - adding insult to injury - encourages his alcoholism.

DA:A only makes this aspect of his character even more clear. His entire attitude is exposed as a defense mechanism concealing his shattered sense of self-worth.

As Sigrun eventually points out in a banter, Oghren is terrified. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 juillet 2011 - 09:50 .

[Persephone]

ipgd wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

When I look at Anders I see his character and I don't believe his character changes from the beginning of DA2 to the end of DA2.

It does, though.

Compare:

Act 2
    * Anders: Boiling in oil.
    * Varric: Too prosaic. Trapped in a cave with hungry bears, right at the spring thaw.
    * Anders: That lets him off too easy. Dipped in molten gold and left as a statue in the Viscount's Keep.
    * Varric: Ooh. That's poetic!
    * Hawke: What are you two talking about?
    * Varric: What to do to Bartrand when I find him.
    * Anders: Any suggestions?

Act 3
    * Varric: So, the knight-commander... Boiling in oil? That one never gets old.
    * Anders: This is past time for joking.
    * Varric: I'm helping you indulge in elaborate revenge fantasies. I think it's good for you.
    * Anders: Meredith will die. Do not doubt that.
    * Varric: Go away, Justice. Can Anders come out and play?
    * Anders: Stop.
    * Varric: You are no fun anymore.

That Act III banter sent chills down my spine. It still does. His voice is so.......full of despair, yet.....also void of any sentiment. Brilliant voice acting, that.

[DreGregoire]

ipgd wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

When I look at Anders I see his character and I don't believe his character changes from the beginning of DA2 to the end of DA2.

It does, though.

Compare:

I removed the spoiler quote because this is no spoiler section. That isn't his character changing that's his mood. I get grumpy too but I still am the same me I was when I was singing in joy at the top of my lungs moments before.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 02 juillet 2011 - 09:50 .