320 réponses à ce sujet

[hoorayforicecream]

erynnar wrote...

She is a prettyFem-Shep!

And my apologies, if I am not clear. I need a nap. I am not claiming ret-con or not that I Anders turning into William Wallace mage terrorist couldn't happen. I am arguing they could and should have done a better job of setting it up in DA2.

The tells were subtle in Awakenings and Anders could have gone either way. More of the happy go lucky Anders who sinks into what he became by Act 3 would have made more sense. Not insta-broody I'm a whiner Anders from Act 1, when supposedly he and Justice had just merged timeline wise.

He wasn't insta-broody I'm a whiner Anders in act 1 though. He's got a mission (freedom for mages), but he still jokes and laughs. He makes fun of Aveline ("Did he ever ask you to play “the naughty mage and the helpless recruit?” Maybe the “secret desire demon and the upstanding knight?”), Carver ("Right. Wonder what you're compensating for."), and Varric. He makes pithy, sarcastic comments (when he enters the Rose for the first time). He's not all broody all the time, but it's clear he's a changed man from DAA. He even jokes a little in Act 2 with Sebastian ("Is that supposed to be Andraste's face on your crotch?").

He stops joking so much by the time act 3 rolls around because he's changed. It's a pretty big difference, as it is intended to be.

Modifié par hoorayforicecream, 02 juillet 2011 - 09:52 .

[Brockololly]

leggywillow wrote...
Even if you don't buy that it was deliberate foreshadowing for Dragon Age 2, you still really can't deny that Awakening Anders was harboring a lot of rage and resentment that he covered up with humor.  I really don't understand how people seemed to miss that part of Anders' character and claim that he was just shallow comic relief.  It wasn't subtle or hidden.  It couldn't have been more obvious that he was deflecting with humor to hide his pain if David Gaider himself popped out of the screen and began beating the player with a gigantic sign.

Sure, but I'm not sold that the DA writers have this overarching master plan down to the level of minutiae with including a handful of banters to foreshadow future events. I think they'd like to have us think that (paging Arl Foreshadow) but its just as likely based on what you saw in Awakening that Anders could have become the recluse hermit mage shacked up with a pretty woman than what he became in DA2.


And to the point of the thread, with a character like Anders where he pulls a 180 from Awakening to DA2, my biggest issue is that his character development is mostly in terms of telling and not showing, from the perspective of the player. The biggest event in Anders' life is likely joining with Justice and yet do we see that? No. We just meet Anders and he's completely different than Awakening Anders and its only uncovered via dialogue. Which is fine, but I think makes for a very disjointed and less engaging character arc.

Obviously you're playing as a new character anyway, but even still, the player knows what Anders was like in Awakening and he is in no way like that in DA2. Sure you could argue the interest then comes from unravelling how Awakening Anders became DA2 Anders, but why not SHOW that progression? If you saw that happen during DA2 and then see Anders fully descend to Mr. Mage Terrorist, that would be far more compelling than simply having him show up in DA2 as essentially a completely different character. As it is, DA2 Anders came across as astoundingly boring and one note to me. Seeing more of the transition between Awakening Anders and DA2 Anders would have made him far more interesting and fully realized I think.

[upsettingshorts]

DreGregoire wrote...

I removed the spoiler quote because this is no spoiler section. That isn't his character changing that's his mood. I get grumpy too but I still am the same me I was when I was singing in joy at the top of my lungs moments before.

They're both good examples of his persistent mood in the two acts.

[Persephone]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Oghren is a cruelly misunderstood character. He is a tragic figure, and the Warden - adding insult to injury - encourages his alcoholism.

DA:A only makes this aspect of his character even more clear. His entire attitude is exposed as a defense mechanism concealing his shattered sense of self-worth.

As Sigrun eventually points out in a banter, Oghren is terrified. 

The ONE Oghren moment where he truly moved me is the "Let the stone run red with the blood of heroes etc." line.

And then DAA came........

[upsettingshorts]

Persephone wrote...

And then DAA came........

DAA dialed up the silly with Oghren to match his even more fragile mental state.

The dude is a trainwreck.  And deep down, he absolutely knows it.

[ipgd]

DreGregoire wrote...

I removed the spoiler quote because this is no spoiler section. That isn't his character changing that's his mood. I get grumpy too but I still am the same me I was when I was singing in joy at the top of my lungs moments before.

... Serious?

What your moods are like are part of your personality.

[Persephone]

Filament wrote...

I maintain that Oghren was a more developed character than people gave him credit for. Awakening kind of threw that under the bus, perhaps. (a smidge of further development drowned out by a sea of mindless comic relief)

And Varric totally owns him, both when it comes to making me laugh AND as a character with more depth than initially assumed.

Varric is my fave Bioware character of all time. (Tie with Loghain, but Loggy didn't get enough screen time)

[Persephone]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Persephone wrote...

And then DAA came........

DAA dialed up the silly with Oghren to match his even more fragile mental state.

The dude is a trainwreck.  And deep down, he absolutely knows it.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.........finally unlocking enough of his approval to get his DAA quest....you have a point.

[erynnar]

I love Varric too Ms. P! It isn't just the chest hair. He does make me laugh so hard.

[upsettingshorts]

Varric and Oghren really have no business being compared to each other beyond "they're both dwarves."

Oghren has more in common with DAA Anders than I think a lot of people would be comfortable admitting.

The biggest hint as to Oghren's DAA mindset?  He no longer thinks the jokes at his expense are funny.  His fragile ego can no longer handle it, even if it was originally part of his coping mechanism.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 juillet 2011 - 09:56 .

[alex90c]

Persephone wrote...

Filament wrote...

I maintain that Oghren was a more developed character than people gave him credit for. Awakening kind of threw that under the bus, perhaps. (a smidge of further development drowned out by a sea of mindless comic relief)

And Varric totally owns him, both when it comes to making me laugh AND as a character with more depth than initially assumed.

Varric is my fave Bioware character of all time. (Tie with Loghain, but Loggy didn't get enough screen time)

i might rarely agree with you about things, but varric really does blow oghren out of the water. varric's cool and funny without being over the top funny, but oghren's just. eh.

if sigrun replaced him in DA:O however, i think after doing ostagar i'd probably go to Orzammar first :happy:

[Sutekh]

Filament wrote...

I maintain that Oghren was a more developed character than people gave him credit for. Awakening kind of threw that under the bus, perhaps. (a smidge of further development drowned out by a sea of mindless comic relief)

I kinda disagree. I truly appreciated Oghren in Awakening, because he felt much more alone and desperate, and losing himself in a sea of booze. "Tragic drunk" in a way. The comic moments only added to that, for me.

[Persephone]

erynnar wrote...

I love Varric too Ms. P! It isn't just the chest hair. He does make me laugh so hard.

He's pretty much universally loved. (Or at least I encountered little to no Varric hate) Which is good. Now where is that romance, Bioware? Varric is the ONLY sane one of the bunch. 

[ipgd]

Persephone wrote...

And Varric totally owns him, both when it comes to making me laugh AND as a character with more depth than initially assumed.

Varric doesn't really have much depth at all. He's kind of a one dimensional character.

Which is not a bad thing, because it cleverly ties into his role as the story's unreliable narrator. He's also nearly flawlessly and universally likeable despite that, which is certainly something very hard to pull off. He is very well and carefully written.

[DreGregoire]

[

Modifié par DreGregoire, 04 juillet 2011 - 08:51 .

[Persephone]

ipgd wrote...

Persephone wrote...

And Varric totally owns him, both when it comes to making me laugh AND as a character with more depth than initially assumed.

Varric doesn't really have much depth at all. He's kind of a one dimensional character.

Argh, non spoiler...

But Varric has his hidden deep moments. His protective side. His *Spoiler* with Bartrand in Act II. He looks out for Hawke & her friends very effectively.

[erynnar]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

erynnar wrote...

She is a prettyFem-Shep!

And my apologies, if I am not clear. I need a nap. I am not claiming ret-con or not that I Anders turning into William Wallace mage terrorist couldn't happen. I am arguing they could and should have done a better job of setting it up in DA2.

The tells were subtle in Awakenings and Anders could have gone either way. More of the happy go lucky Anders who sinks into what he became by Act 3 would have made more sense. Not insta-broody I'm a whiner Anders from Act 1, when supposedly he and Justice had just merged timeline wise.

He wasn't insta-broody I'm a whiner Anders in act 1 though. He's got a mission (freedom for mages), but he still jokes and laughs. He makes fun of Aveline ("Did he ever ask you to play “the naughty mage and the helpless recruit?” Maybe the “secret desire demon and the upstanding knight?”), Carver ("Right. Wonder what you're compensating for."), and Varric. He makes pithy, sarcastic comments (when he enters the Rose for the first time). He's not all broody all the time, but it's clear he's a changed man from DAA. He even jokes a little in Act 2 with Sebastian ("Is that supposed to be Andraste's face on your crotch?").

He stops joking so much by the time act 3 rolls around because he's changed. It's a pretty big difference, as it is intended to be.

Meh, I romanced him with my rogue and he seemed more whiney than funny even from the start. The fact that he ceased being funny at all...meh. I know it was for his character, but I came to despise the guy. 

Left his butt in the infirmary my second playthrough unless I had to do his quests, and I left them until the last. Never took him anywhere, despite BioWare's trying to railroad me into taking him as a healer (my mage was not one). I refused. Him and Sebastian could both have cheerfully rotted for all the likes of me.

I romanced Fenris the second time, took ironic pleasure in making him fall for a mage, despite his constant whining about how evil mages are (oh except Hawke of course). 

I just didn't like or connect with Anders of DA2. It would have had more impact if they had given me someone new, built up my affections for them, only to have them go off the deep end (no spirit/demon/McGuffin needed). That would have been a real kick in the high hanging fruit. As it was...Anders was just annoying to me.

[DreGregoire]

Persephone wrote...

But Varric has his hidden deep moments. His protective side. His *Spoiler* with Bartrand in Act II. He looks out for Hawke & her friends very effectively.

I agree wholeheartedly. The cutscenes with Varric showed us how deeply he cares for and protects those within his circle.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 02 juillet 2011 - 10:12 .

[ipgd]

DreGregoire wrote...

So yes, Anders may be prone to be more moody than most, and that shows even in Awakenings, but that doesn't mean he changed who he is (his core of being).

He did, though.

On the friendship path, he reconciles his cognitive dissonance with Justice and becomes more assimilated with that part of himself, further distancing himself from his individuality and who he was in Awakening.

On the rivalry path, he exacerbates his strain with Justice and retains more individuality at the expense of his mental stability. He becomes highly depressed; Justice becomes further corrupt by his opposition and self-loathing.

Hell, all you need to do is compare his end game dialogues between friendship and rivalry to see he most definitely did change over the course of the game and on his respective paths. He changed more than any of the others, and in a big way.

[DreGregoire]

ipgd wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

So yes, Anders may be prone to be more moody than most, and that shows even in Awakenings, but that doesn't mean he changed who he is (his core of being).

He did, though.

On the friendship path, he reconciles his cognitive dissonance with Justice and becomes more assimilated with that part of himself, further distancing himself from his individuality and who he was in Awakening.

On the rivalry path, he exacerbates his strain with Justice and retains more individuality at the expense of his mental stability. He becomes highly depressed; Justice becomes further corrupt by his opposition and self-loathing.

Hell, all you need to do is compare his end game dialogues between friendship and rivalry to see he most definitely did change over the course of the game and on his respective paths. He changed more than any of the others, and in a big way.

Like I said once before, I don't see either of those end game behaviors to be a change from his character. Could the external stimuli change who he is later down the road? It's very possible; however, him reacting differently to lack of support vs. having the support of a friend doesn't change him. It simply changes how he responds. The stressers either get to him or they don't.  In regards to Justice and assimilation I don't see a change from him from the beginning to the end in a friendship, it remains the same. In the rival Justice does seem to come out more but again it's due to the stimuli. We'll have to agree to disagree.

So long all, I've enjoyed sharing views.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 04 juillet 2011 - 08:51 .

[AtreiyaN7]

alex90c wrote...

right, that short story explained quite a lot.

and it sucks they had to ruin anders's character :/

Change does not equate to ruin. The character evolved in a direction that you may not have liked but one which was perfectly valid, given Anders' and Justice's party banter in DA:A. You'd have to be blind, deaf, and dumb to have missed the hints. Anders having deep-seated anger/resentment towards tepmplars is there right in front of our faces. Have you listened to him about his escape attempts, how he was treated, etc.??? Maybe some players are just too interested in the good-time, skirt-chasing vibe to actually bother with paying attention to what was beneath the character's otherwise shallow surface.

Also, Justice's growing attachment to this world, his interest in the mage cause, his concerns over becoming a demon, and his wondering about what might be if the host were willing, etc would seem, to me, to have hinted at the possibility of his merging with someone else eventually, even if it hadn't turned out to be Anders. It's not like he could stay in Kristoff's decaying corpse forever, so you have to figure he had two choices: to fade away (pun intended) or to discuss the possibility of merging with a friend. I mean, what, did you expect him to go up to some completely random person and suggest a merge? This doesn't seem like something casual to me, and if he'd just forcibly taken over someone that would have been a sure-shot straight to demon-land (the fact that merging with Anders ended up resulting in a metamorphosis into a demonic spirit is unfortunate, but the intention was clearly to avoid that).

Furthermore, Wynne in the first game showed that the merging of a Fade spirit and mage was possible without apparently ill effects - that one didn't always turn into an abomination (or turned into a very nice abomination if you want to use that term). I think she likely represented the flip side of the Anders/Justice situation, where a merging was successful because of the mage's inherent mental stability.

Anders, on the other hand, had deep-seated anger, and he is probably, at least in part, meant to be an example of what happens when you stuff a mentally unstable mage with a Fade spirit. With the way that DA2 plays out, it seems to me that Anders is supposed to be tragic figure. And when someone happens to have, say, violently murdered/killed a bunch of people and later feels guilty about it (per the Anders short story), I don't think he's going to be a barrel of freaking laughs when he's had to turn fugitive and go on the run. Also, Justice wasn't exactly Mr. Comedy, so that likely contributes to merged Anders being somewhat more sober/dour. Despite that, there are flashes of Anders' previous snarkiness, etc. on occasion.

He changed, but all real people change. I know I'm a whole lot different from how I was when I was a little kid. Back then I was sunny as f--- from 5-8 maybe, but after that I morphed into being bitter, sarcastic, and cynical (thanks for that, mom!). I suppose you can go complain to some cosmic writer that my character should never have changed and that I should have maintained my sunny disposition forever and ever. *snort*

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 02 juillet 2011 - 10:40 .

[erynnar]

Persephone wrote...

erynnar wrote...

I love Varric too Ms. P! It isn't just the chest hair. He does make me laugh so hard.

He's pretty much universally loved. (Or at least I encountered little to no Varric hate) Which is good. Now where is that romance, Bioware? Varric is the ONLY sane one of the bunch. 

I know! I want to stroke that chest hair! 

[Xalen]

@DreGregoire, I gotta ask, if this is not the change of the character, can you provide an example of something that you would consider as such?