320 réponses à ce sujet

[ipgd]

I suppose if you really want to believe something is true, any evidence to the contrary is inconsequential.

[upsettingshorts]

ipgd wrote...

I suppose if you really want to believe something is true, any evidence to the contrary is inconsequential.

It's the BSN way.

[erynnar]

"You are required to do nothing, least of all believe. Shut one's eyes tight or open one's arms wide, either way, one's a fool." -Flemeth

[erynnar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I suppose if you really want to believe something is true, any evidence to the contrary is inconsequential.

It's the BSN way.

For both camps.

[upsettingshorts]

erynnar wrote...

For both camps.

There are no camps. 

[erynnar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

erynnar wrote...

For both camps.

There are no camps. 

Sides then.

[upsettingshorts]

erynnar wrote...

Sides then.

That's not what I meant.

The concept of "sides" is a construct.  They don't exist.  There are only individuals with opinions, some with more basis in logic and analysis than others.

[erynnar]

I meant those that love, like, are meh, and hate DA2. And they exist in numbers, and therefore, are groups.

Opinion is emotional and has very little to do with logic. Which is mostly what BSN contains from all posters (you and me included). The things that can be discerned by logic seem to be the only things that almost all agree on (reused dungeons etc), but bother people, emotionally to varying degrees (opinions).

Still, the opinions can be numerically put into different groups as percentages, should anyone be so inclined. So yes, camps, or groups.

[upsettingshorts]

erynnar wrote...

And they exist in numbers, and therefore, are groups.

Not really.  That would imply cohesiveness that does not exist.

erynnar wrote...

Opinion is emotional and has very little to do with logic.

Maybe your emotions don't.

erynnar wrote...

Still, the opinions can be numerically put into different groups as percentages, should anyone be so inclined. So yes, camps, or groups.

And yet, those who are in these so-called "groups" often do not agree on much of anything beyond some useless overall "feeling" about DA2. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 02 juillet 2011 - 10:52 .

[Aaleel]

I liked Varric's character a lot, my favorite character in the game.

Origins and DA2 handled the characters differently.

I liked characters interacting with me when I walked into camp and voicing concerns.

I liked proving to Sten that women could be warriors. I liked that he stopped me and asked me how I intended to stop the Blight past mere words. I liked that I had to prove myself worthy of leadership, because it made the moment when he said he would follow me anywhere that much more fulfilling.

I liked Morrigan being a smart mouthed ***** in the beginning. But by the end being almost in tears as she told she never really had anyone she could ever call a friend.

I liked reaffirming Leliana's faith or making her look back to her past, or stopping Alistar from being a doormat and eventually making him king.

DA2 did things differently but better or worse is up to the player.

[OdanUrr]

erynnar wrote...

Opinion is emotional and has very little to do with logic.

“It is only about things that do not interest one that one can give a really unbiassed opinion, which is no doubt the reason why an unbiassed opinion is always absolutely valueless.”

Oscar Wilde said that.

[Cutlasskiwi]

Persephone wrote...

ipgd wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Well, then an argument can be made that what happened to Anders and Justice would not have happened as well.

If you are completely against the concept of character development, sure.

I still say they should have made a totally new character, a mage that grew up and escaped from the circle and Meredith's tyrrany.

It would not have had the same effect. Anders's character in Awakening exists to inform the tragedy of his character arc in DA2. Without knowing what he was like before merging with Justice, we would have no idea what he really means when he says it was a horrible mistake. He was purposefully established as a likeable character so he could be later torn down to dramatic effect.

A new character would not have had that benefit. We would have no idea what he really lost. With Anders, we do.

This. SO this. While I agree that DAII's plot writing could use some polish (Esp. Act III), its character writing had more moments of brilliance than any character of DAO did, IMHO. Well, except Loghain. (Disregarding the subtle as a sledgehammer "eeeeeeeeeeevil" war council scene)

For the most part I agree that characters were handled better in DA2. I was surprised by how attached I got to all the followers. In DAO I only really got attached to Sten, Loghain and Shale. I just wish that certain characters had been more tied to the plot other than just screaming about how much mages suck. Now, don't get me wrong; I like Fenris but Izzy who is also skippable is tied to the plot in some ways. And given the mage tension floating around in the game I really wanted a stronger connection to the plot for Fenris.

Modifié par Yellow Words, 02 juillet 2011 - 10:57 .

[DreGregoire]

d

Modifié par DreGregoire, 04 juillet 2011 - 08:51 .

[ipgd]

DreGregoire wrote...

For a persons core being (personality/character what have you) to change the person must complete a crisis situation and then make changes to their core beliefs.

Which certainly happens with Anders.

Here, compare friendship to rival (spoilers):

Friendship:
Rival:

If you seriously think Alistair's hardening mechanic is more significant of a character change than what Anders undergoes... well.

[erynnar]

OdanUrr wrote...

erynnar wrote...

Opinion is emotional and has very little to do with logic.

“It is only about things that do not interest one that one can give a really unbiassed opinion, which is no doubt the reason why an unbiassed opinion is always absolutely valueless.”

Oscar Wilde said that.

A very wise and talented man, that Mr. Wilde.

[Xalen]

Ok, so you view "change" as something that happens at a singe point in time. It's not the definition I'd use, but whatever, let's work with that. Others were talking about change as a prolonged process.
 

DreGregoire wrote...

In my Opinion, Anders/Justice does not complete his crisis before the end of DAII; therefore, the change to who he is has not happened if it ever will. You almost see a bit of a change towards the very end..

While Alistair's "change" (as passing a crisis point) can happen at any time in DAO, and Anders's happens (it does happen, see ipgd's examples) only in Act 3 conclusion, I fail to see how that makes Alistair's more relevant and significant (I'd say it makes it less)

Modifié par Xalen, 02 juillet 2011 - 11:26 .

[DreGregoire]

Xalen wrote... Ok, so you view "change" as something that happens at a singe point in time.

No I do not see it as that. As I stated in my answer to you. I do not believe that the Anders/Justice crisis is complete, it's an ongoing situation until the moment DA2 ends. A crisis isn't always just a single event. It can be but it doesn't have to be. That's why I used the term crisis situation instead of the term moment.

And I did not speak of relevancy or importance. You asked for an example and I gave you the simplist one I hoped you had experienced. What Anders/Justice is going through is extreme.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 02 juillet 2011 - 11:29 .

[Persephone]

DreGregoire wrote...

Xalen wrote...

@DreGregoire, I gotta ask, if this is not the change of the character, can you provide an example of something that you would consider as such?

Well I went to go to write a blog to answer this because I feel it's a bit off topic but blogging is down. pffft.

Anyways,

For a persons core being (personality/character what have you) to change the person must complete a crisis situation and then make changes to their core beliefs. Since this is about DAO vs DA2 I feel comfortable in using Alistair as an example and then a non spoiler Anders.

Alistair tends to live in lala land some of the time, thinking that things are all roses and the negative is cut and dry. Wardens are awesome, noble, warriors vs. the reality that wardens do what they must despite high ideas.

Now you come to his crisis moment when he meets (spoiler) and (spoiler) treat him so well. If you tell him (spoiler- hardening line) he starts to really think and contemplate what you have told him. Wait, he hasn't changed yet. That comes after he talks to you about believing you are right, but we don't see the results until later (landsmeet).

I actually hate hardened Alistair's tantrum at the Landsmeet far more. To me he has not changed for the better, he has only become even more self centered.

As my Warden tells him in my fic: You are the least selfish person I know, yet the most self centered.

*Runs away*

[Xalen]

So SPOILER is not a crisis situation and doesn't complete the Anders's change?
He expects to die after that, ffs, I don't know how it can get any more complete than that 

Modifié par Xalen, 02 juillet 2011 - 11:31 .

[ipgd]

DreGregoire wrote...

I do not believe that the Anders/Justice crisis is complete, it's an ongoing situation until the moment DA2 ends.

All character development is ongoing.

I'm not really seeing your point, other than that you apparently want to believe that Anders did not change and so move the goalposts in response to challenges to your opinion.

[DreGregoire]

Xalen wrote...

So SPOILER is not a crisis situation and doesn't complete the Anders's change?

It is, imo, part of the crisis but I don't believe that he has completed the crisis, or maybe dealt with how the crisis changes who he is. Now we just sound cryptic.

[csfteeeer]

Jesus Christ People, Can't you just ignore this Guy?

He's been Kissing DA2's A** non-stop for a while now, Just Ignore cause he'll just keep making threads about how DA2 is great in DAO is crap and Blah blah blah.

[Xalen]

csfteeeer wrote...
Can't you just ignore this Guy?

Can you?

[Persephone]

csfteeeer wrote...

Jesus Christ People, Can't you just ignore this Guy?

He's been Kissing DA2's A** non-stop for a while now, Just Ignore cause he'll just keep making threads about how DA2 is great in DAO is crap and Blah blah blah.

No.

Besides, there's a rather interesting discussion going on now. Much more valuable than 50 "OMGZ! DAII sucks! Curse you, EAware!" threads.:innocent:

[Mr.House]

csfteeeer wrote...

Jesus Christ People, Can't you just ignore this Guy?

He's been Kissing DA2's A** non-stop for a while now, Just Ignore cause he'll just keep making threads about how DA2 is great in DAO is crap and Blah blah blah.

Why can't you ignore him? The point that you just posted that shows me you are not ignoring him.