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[Jeth Prime]

He shows a bit of it when Liara vista the ship in ME2.

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

Well, let's be honest, the VA for Shepard is not the best in the industry. But, that gives us a chance to play with the limitations. Shepard's doesn't have to say everything out loud. a lot of things that are going on, stay within, and might only gain importane for you, the player, when you think about it.

For example, I'm a tali-mancer. Tali is a part of Shepard's crew. he develops a relationship with her, end of story.

OR....Tali, as a young quarian, became part of Shepard's crew. But, Ashley was first, and she had her sights set on Shepard. Shepard started to develop feelings for Ashley...and they were about to blossom, until they arrived at Virmire. And for the second time in his life, Shepard failed, and had to leave Ashley to die. It ripped a wound, so deep, it still hurts to this day. And, here's Tali...for her, a few years have passed by, but for you, it's only a few months. And, yet...she knows the pain of losing a loved one. She knows the burden of responsibility, to fight for your people. And yet, she can make you smile...

That's my point. You don't have to say everything out loud. Between the lines are entire galaxies of possibilities, blank, open, and ready for you to be filled in.

[Sheppard-Commander]

Jeth Prime wrote...

He shows a bit of it when Liara vista the ship in ME2.

I'm fighting for all living life everywhere...I guess... *shrugs*

So anticlimactic and poorly written dialogue.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

Samuel_Valkyrie wrote...

And yet, she can make you smile...

http://s3.amazonaws.....jpg?1302752733

[SilentK]

I would like to have the option for my FemShep to show that she is living a difficult life. She get's everything done, no question about it. But all the hardships are taking their toll on her. Below is a bit of a wall of text, but in ME2 FemShep can get to talk about how difficult her mission is if she romances Jacob.


Shep: Let's just talk for a bit. Unofficial. You and me.
Jacob: I'd like that, Shepard. Been some rough running so far. Feels good to put a lid on my past and focus on what's important. Our mission. What it means. You. You're hitting me in a way that I wasn't expecting. I won't let old wounds get in the way of that.
Shep: What are you looking for Mr Taylor? Anything more than commander and crew?
Jacob: You like toying with me. All right, here it is: I've been dreading this talk ever since we found the Gernsback. I want you around because you're a soldier too. Gotta get it -- all that weight isn't worth carrying.
Shep: You're too close to see how it affects you. I would be, too.
Jacob: Well, maybe that's more about you. Out of all of us, you're the one who could probably most use a place to vent. So Shepard, how about we turn it around? What are you carrying? What do you need to get rid of.



(Here my FemShep goes with survivors guilt... it suits her and hey... she has lost a few friends along the way  )

Shep: Every call I make is life or death. Why am I the only one who gets a second chance?
Jacob: Hard to keep the big goals in mind when people are dying around you, huh?
Shep: We're saving the damn galaxy, but the individual cost is.... huge.
Jacob: That's good though. It's a **** job, but it needs you. Lose that dread and you end up like the Illusive Man. Is there anything human left in his eyes? You take that responsibility and you own it, Shepard. That's why I want to be there. With you. 
Shep: Thanks for listening. Do you want a turn?
Jacob: Telling me felt good, right? Made you think someone understood. But you know what? It's still there. You dealt with it before and you'll have to keep dealing. Because you know what's more important? Everything.


I think that the dialouge works really well, there's a bit more of the "love"-stuff in the end but I wanted to show this part. FemSheps gets the opportunity to unload a bit but she doesn't end up crying buckets or something like that. Simply recognizing that it's a difficult life sometimes but too much is at stake for her to simply let it go. Like Jacob said, she dealt with it before and she will keep on dealing with it, because everything is too important. Don't know if MaleShep has anything like this with one of his LI:s but this is one of my fav scenes with any of FemShep's LI:s.

edit: spelling... as always.

Modifié par SilentK, 02 juillet 2011 - 11:25 .

[Captain Crash]

A little emotion would be great!  Shepard was a relentless killing machine with little focus on her in ME2.  The lack of any emotion at the end of Arrival was really weird.    Oh I just killed 300,000 people but im more concerned about going back to Earth for a trial...   


Showing emotion isnt a sign of weakness and it will at least make her look human again.    I know everyones not in agreement, but at least give us a option.  Isnt Mass Effect about choice after all? 

[Siansonea]

Yeah, Jacob's stock went up 1000% when I became aware of that exchange and his "back off and quit trying to fix me" dialogue.

[Samuel_Valkyrie]

DaveExclamationMarkYognaut wrote...

Samuel_Valkyrie wrote...

And yet, she can make you smile...

http://s3.amazonaws.....jpg?1302752733

Thanks for that.

[demonic_cookie]

Just for the record? People who think that women support emotions more because "people just work that way"? Are wrong. People are conditioned to work that way. Boys don't cry, but girls should be sympathetic, that's what everything around us says through all our lives. And you know what? Girls are actually coming out on top of it for a change. Females have less heart-related problems, and in general live longer than men. So you can be stoic, guys, and say that it's the way to deal with troubles... We'll see you when we're 80... or not.

On topic though, I would like some player-defined displays of emotion. I expect Shepard will have some really brutal decisions to make, and I would love to be able to at least discuss some of those with my squad, or LI. Getting a hug from Tali definitely needs to be somewhere there. Tears I'm not so sure can be implemented so they don't annoy the stoic crowd.

Also I really don't get where this "ME is just a silly sci-fi piece" coming from. War? Genocide? Scientific experimentation that not only breaks the limits of ethical but sets those limits on fire, blows them up, and then salts the earth? Since when is ME a light-hearted scif-fi flick? Was I the only one who felt sick after Overlord, or reveled in homicidal glee after Garrus getting his revenge for his team?

That said, I trust people remember the Feros colonies thing on Illium? If that is the level of emotion we're going to get, I vote no. Becuase that was just way overdone, cheezy and blegh.

Modifié par demonic_cookie, 03 juillet 2011 - 12:07 .

[Zkyire]

demonic_cookie wrote...

Just for the record? People who think that women support emotions more because "people just work that way"? Are wrong. People are conditioned to work that way. Boys don't cry, but girls should be sympathetic, that's what everything around us says through all our lives. And you know what? Girls are actually coming out on top of it for a change. Females have less heart-related problems, and in general live longer than men. So you can be stoic, guys, and say that it's the way to deal with troubles... We'll see you when we're 80... or not.

On topic though, I would like some player-defined displays of emotion. I expect Shepard will have some really brutal decisions to make, and I would love to be able to at least discuss some of those with my squad, or LI. Getting a hug from Tali definitely needs to be somewhere there. Tears I'm not so sure can be implemented so they don't annoy the stoic crowd.

Also I really don't get where this "ME is just a silly sci-fi piece" coming from. War? Genocide? Scientific experimentation that not only breaks the limits of ethical but sets those limits on fire, blows them up, and then salts the earth? Since when is ME a light-hearted scif-fi flick? Was I the only one who felt sick after Overlord, or reveled in homicidal glee after Garrus getting his revenge for his team?

That said, I trust people remember the Feros colonies thing on Illium? If that is the level of emotion we're going to get, I vote no. Becuase that was just way overdone, cheezy and blegh.

Male and female reactions are a mixture of social conditioning and brain chemistry. To suggest that biology has nothing to do with this is preposterous.

And to suggest that women live a couple years longer than men solely because they're more in touch with their feelings is also preposterous.

Modifié par IEatWhatIPoo, 03 juillet 2011 - 12:14 .

[Zkyire]

DuckSoup wrote...

Yes, I do. To call it 'unfortunate' that women will mainly support Shepard showing emotions is dumb. 

And it just as easily could have meant that he/she was saying that it's unfortunate that more men don't want it.

But you insulted him/her without looking for clarification.

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

demonic_cookie wrote...
Also I really don't get where this "ME is just a silly sci-fi piece" coming from. War? Genocide? Scientific experimentation that not only breaks the limits of ethical but sets those limits on fire, blows them up, and then salts the earth? Since when is ME a light-hearted scif-fi flick? Was I the only one who felt sick after Overlord, or reveled in homicidal glee after Garrus getting his revenge for his team?

Star Wars has war, genocide, torture, and so on. As does, say, Flash Gordon. It's about tone, not about content. For instance, Alderaan blowing up is clearly a horrific event, but having Leia break down and cry would have been inconsistent with the tone of the story. In other words, not everyting has to go for realism, and Mass Effect hasn't so far.

Modifié par DaveExclamationMarkYognaut, 03 juillet 2011 - 12:28 .

[mauro2222]

Dexi wrote...

No.
Shepard is the only chance the galaxy has because he is who he is. He kills when he has to because he knows so, and if he kills when it's not necessarily called for, he does it because he wishes it, for his own amusement or not, fully aware of the consequences.

No time for crying like a baby. No time to let yourself affected by what until now passed unnoticed, because it will affect his performance, and he doesn't need that, not now when the galaxy is under full war.
It's a restless fight and if you sit down to cry it's game over for you.



I've been in very tough situations, I had to pull myself and other people out of **** and sometimes when I saw my face in the mirror I nearly burst into tears. But I never sat down and cried for I always considered that crying means I acknowledge the hardship and the situation's superiority over my strength and morale.
Truth is, once I knew it's almost finally over in nights I did lay down and cry, but of joy mixed with burden, joy that it's finally over and breakdown thinking of what I had to go through.


I'd expect as much from Shepard. He is a leader and he knows all this. He needs to be strong for himself and for others as long as its required, but once he gets the job done he can stay put and be a baby unbothered for however long he wants.

<_< That´s what we want to see, we don´t need tears, we want the moment "I saw my face in the mirror" that you described. For me if he/she allows himself to let fall a tear, breaks something or gets frozen looking around contemplating the destruction, that would be the best moment for me. 

[demonic_cookie]

To imply that women are weak, and are "just born" to be weak because we express our emotions more, is also preposterous, but it doesn't stop some men here doing that, while being remarkably condescending in the process.

Also, to suggest that all women's brain work in a specific way that is different from all men's brains is completely off the mark. The neurological range within the species is vast, and an idea of "typical male brain" and "typical female brain" is something that authors of books like "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus" use to justify their crap theories.

DaveExclamation, I guess we have different understanding of ME's tone. For me Tali's loyalty mission, Jack's loyalty mission (however poorly executed at times), and Overlord, were clear indication that they wanted to include more emotional depth. LotSB was a step in that direction, while at the same time including some of the funniest battle banter ever. Bioware failed more than they succeeded, but the trying was there.

Also, "breaking down and crying", and "showing signs of emotion" or even "shedding a few tears/holding back tears" are different things. Do not confuse them.

[mauro2222]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...

Well, if I ever wondered about the emotional maturity of folks around here, this thread would be the perfect place to satisfy that curiosity. I'd like to see how the lot of you would react if you were actually confronted with a difficult situation. The macho BS "stone cold" approach is simply cultural conditioning, if something horrific actually happened to you kids, you'd bawl like a newborn—and that would be perfectly appropriate.

Really, the idea that crying=weakness is one of the silliest fallacies there is. Thank you, social conditioning.

I love you.

Me too.

[blothulfur]

Personally I thought that Tali's visit to the normandy and her and Shep's conversation showing a brief crack in the psychological armour the commander has girded himself with was brilliantly done, it's the little things that are the most telling in that scene such as Shep's last line and the slow pan out that illustrates that he is on his own in that big cabin and feeling it, cinematically it's really well produced.

And the fact that Shepards facade crumbles for just a moment is all the more illuminating for being such a rare occurence, if it happened all the time his team wouldn't be particularly inspired and it would lessen the impact. He's leading people on a suicide mission, if he has doubts what the hell is that going to do for morale they need the legend not the man.

He's being a good officer.

[Siansonea]

demonic_cookie wrote...

To imply that women are weak, and are "just born" to be weak because we express our emotions more, is also preposterous, but it doesn't stop some men here doing that, while being remarkably condescending in the process.

Also, to suggest that all women's brain work in a specific way that is different from all men's brains is completely off the mark. The neurological range within the species is vast, and an idea of "typical male brain" and "typical female brain" is something that authors of books like "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus" use to justify their crap theories.

DaveExclamation, I guess we have different understanding of ME's tone. For me Tali's loyalty mission, Jack's loyalty mission (however poorly executed at times), and Overlord, were clear indication that they wanted to include more emotional depth. LotSB was a step in that direction, while at the same time including some of the funniest battle banter ever. Bioware failed more than they succeeded, but the trying was there.

Also, "breaking down and crying", and "showing signs of emotion" or even "shedding a few tears/holding back tears" are different things. Do not confuse them.

I would very much like to know how old some of these so-called "men" are—I strongly suspect the most immature remarks are coming from people who are technically too young to be playing these games in the first place.

[ADLegend21]

SilentK wrote...

I would like to have the option for my FemShep to show that she is living a difficult life. She get's everything done, no question about it. But all the hardships are taking their toll on her. Below is a bit of a wall of text, but in ME2 FemShep can get to talk about how difficult her mission is if she romances Jacob.


Shep: Let's just talk for a bit. Unofficial. You and me.
Jacob: I'd like that, Shepard. Been some rough running so far. Feels good to put a lid on my past and focus on what's important. Our mission. What it means. You. You're hitting me in a way that I wasn't expecting. I won't let old wounds get in the way of that.
Shep: What are you looking for Mr Taylor? Anything more than commander and crew?
Jacob: You like toying with me. All right, here it is: I've been dreading this talk ever since we found the Gernsback. I want you around because you're a soldier too. Gotta get it -- all that weight isn't worth carrying.
Shep: You're too close to see how it affects you. I would be, too.
Jacob: Well, maybe that's more about you. Out of all of us, you're the one who could probably most use a place to vent. So Shepard, how about we turn it around? What are you carrying? What do you need to get rid of.



(Here my FemShep goes with survivors guilt... it suits her and hey... she has lost a few friends along the way  )

Shep: Every call I make is life or death. Why am I the only one who gets a second chance?
Jacob: Hard to keep the big goals in mind when people are dying around you, huh?
Shep: We're saving the damn galaxy, but the individual cost is.... huge.
Jacob: That's good though. It's a **** job, but it needs you. Lose that dread and you end up like the Illusive Man. Is there anything human left in his eyes? You take that responsibility and you own it, Shepard. That's why I want to be there. With you. 
Shep: Thanks for listening. Do you want a turn?
Jacob: Telling me felt good, right? Made you think someone understood. But you know what? It's still there. You dealt with it before and you'll have to keep dealing. Because you know what's more important? Everything.


I think that the dialouge works really well, there's a bit more of the "love"-stuff in the end but I wanted to show this part. FemSheps gets the opportunity to unload a bit but she doesn't end up crying buckets or something like that. Simply recognizing that it's a difficult life sometimes but too much is at stake for her to simply let it go. Like Jacob said, she dealt with it before and she will keep on dealing with it, because everything is too important. Don't know if MaleShep has anything like this with one of his LI:s but this is one of my fav scenes with any of FemShep's LI:s.

edit: spelling... as always.

This is why he's the BEST LI, not my absolute favorite, but the best.

[Siansonea]

If Jacob didn't have "alligator mouth" animation and Chiclet teeth, he'd be one of my very favorite characters.

[sevach]

I think people should be given the choice wether they want Shep to remain a rock solid thru the storm or not.
I wouldn't want my renegade getting all teary eyed and emotional.

[mauro2222]

"Cry is a sign of weakness, if you don't cry you're tough" what the...?
Since when emotional repression is good for the health of the brain?

[DaveExclamationMarkYognaut]

demonic_cookie wrote...

DaveExclamation, I guess we have different understanding of ME's tone. For me Tali's loyalty mission, Jack's loyalty mission (however poorly executed at times), and Overlord, were clear indication that they wanted to include more emotional depth. LotSB was a step in that direction, while at the same time including some of the funniest battle banter ever. Bioware failed more than they succeeded, but the trying was there.

Maybe another issue is the assumption that tears = emotional depth, when more often than not it's the complete opposite. Compare Super Metroid and Other M - plot point for plot point, Super Metroid is much more effective at conveying emotion than Other M is, entirely without any grandiose displays of emotion. Stuff like people crying can be effective (like in The Odyssey) but rarely is.

Back to the tone issue, take Star Wars - that movie is completely capable of conveying emotional depth without straying into grimdark territory. The emotional "down" notes in that trilogy were understated and therefore didn't get in the way of the excitement/adventure tone the movies were going for. The once place a character (Luke) did cry was during the "Luke, I am your father" scene, which had an important place in his character arc (the tension re: fighting his father and/or becoming his father) and corresponded with an emotional "down" note in the story as a whole.

Now, the "tone" of Mass Effect is clearly a completely subjective issue where reasonable people may differ substantially, but it feels to me that it's going for a similar tone to Star Wars. That's why I think that it needs to be careful about the emotional arc of the story in the same way that Star Wars was. So, it's less "never have Shep cry" and more "if they have Shep cry, they should make sure it's in response to something along the lines of 'Luke, I am your father' and not something out of Other M."

[Gibb_Shepard]

lilco wrote...

I'd like to see femshep shed a tear or two when her LI dies.

I bet feminists would hate it though.

:|

This hahaha.

"If ManShepard doesn't cry, neither does Femshep!! She is not some bimbo with emotions, she's a hardened military commander!!"