22 réponses à ce sujet

[randomcheeses]

This has been irritating me:

1. Dwarfs have no connection to the fade and they don't dream.

2. Dwarfs still have emotions.

3. A mage who undergoes the Rite of Tranquility loses their connection to the fade.

4. The also lose their emotions and from what we see in DA2 they suddenly do everything they are told by Templars. Even skeevy things. Ser Alrik, please go die in a fire forever, thanks.

So. . . Why? Why does cutting the connection to the fade tear away their emotions, and their ability to reason logically. Why do they do whatever they're told, even though intellectually they should still be able to tell that doing action X is morally questionable/physically or mentally harmful/ not in their best interests in any way. After all, we have emotions, but wer're not ruled by them. Losing said emotions should not equal turning into a doormat.

So does this mean that the Chantry is lying about the true extent of the RoT? Is it maybe possible that someome could be cut off from the fade and their magic without giving them what amounts to serious brain damage.
And does the Chantry/Templars do it on purpose, perhaps because if the mage's brain is not messed with to not only remove their emotions, but also their free will, they would be very, very pissed off and try to do everything they could to find a cure for the Rite in order to get their connection to the fade and their magic back.

Basically, are the Templar Order and the Chantry even bigger jerks than we realise?

[Icy Magebane]

TBH, before DA2, I didn't think dwarves could dream OR enter the Fade in any way... although I suppose Oghren (and probably Sigrun) proved otherwise in DA:A. I think he made some comment about that, but... that is too long ago and I don't remember.

To answer your question about Tranquility, it's been said/theorized that if the mage in question sees the person giving orders as a figure or authority, they follow instructions, period. In the case of a "morally reprehensible act," the mage has no morality and simply does what they are told. The only possible exception to this would be disobeying orders from someone they see as in a position of authority, such as when Owain refused to give the Mage Warden a rod of fire without the proper paperwork. Emotions aren't related to this type of behavior... having no emotions simply means that they do not care one way or the other, even though they find some things to be "preferable," such as not dying. But as we also saw with Owain, he went to no lengths to actually preserve his own life when the Ferelden Circle was overrun with abominations...

I still have no idea why Anders was able to restore his friend's connection to the Fade, but then again, I also don't know exactly what is involved in the Rite. Apparently it isn't permanent, no matter what we have been lead to believe so far...

Anyway, that's how I see it. You'll have to draw your own conclusions about who is and isn't a jerk though... not interested in trying to convert anybody right now. The whole topic seems a little loaded anyway...

Modifié par Icy Magebane, 02 juillet 2011 - 04:59 .

[DPSSOC]

randomcheeses wrote...
So. . . Why? Why does cutting the connection to the fade tear away their emotions,

My guess is it may be a result of the trauma of being severed from the Fade rather than born without a connection.  Because Dwarves are born with no connection to the Fade it doesn't have the same psychological effect as having it chopped off.  It's the mind's response to trauma and maybe, with counselling, they could get better and simply no one's thought to try (accepting it as part of the Tranquil package).

randomcheeses wrote...
and their ability to reason logically. Why do they do whatever they're told, even though intellectually they should still be able to tell that doing action X is morally questionable/physically or mentally harmful/ not in their best interests in any way.  After all, we have emotions, but wer're not ruled by them. Losing said emotions should not equal turning into a doormat.

But without emotion they don't care.  They may acknowledge that something is harmful to them but it doesn't matter.  It's like the Loki Mechs in ME2.  You can shoot their leg off and they acknowledge it (they don't try to stand up and keep walking), but they don't stop.

randomcheeses wrote...
And does the Chantry/Templars do it on purpose, perhaps because if the mage's brain is not messed with to not only remove their emotions, but also their free will, they would be very, very pissed off and try to do everything they could to find a cure for the Rite in order to get their connection to the fade and their magic back.

Keep in mind that the Rite of Tranquility is, in most cases, voluntary so I don't see many mages getting upset if it didn't get rid of their emotions.  Aside from Kirkwall I got the impression that making a mage Tranquil as a punishment was rare (otherwise why would they need Aeonar).  Jowan in Origins is only being forced to be Tranquil because he's resorted to Blood Magic which means he's too dangerous to keep as an apprentice (high risk of possession), and they'd probably have to kill him if he took the Harrowing (same reason).  So rather than kill him they try to let him have at least some kind of life.

As for free will that's an emotional response rather than an intellectual concept; the desire, want, need to exert your will on the world.

[Foolsfolly]

FYI, it's Right of Tranquility not Rite.

And:

1. Dwarfs have no connection to the fade and they don't dream.

2. Dwarfs still have emotions.

Nothing to do with a race that has a connection to Fade suddenly having that ripped away from them. That's like saying, "Why do people feel crippled when they have their arms ripped off, worms have no arms and don't feel impaired."

[sphinxess]

DPSSOC wrote...

randomcheeses wrote...
So. . . Why? Why does cutting the connection to the fade tear away their emotions,

My guess is it may be a result of the trauma of being severed from the Fade rather than born without a connection.  Because Dwarves are born with no connection to the Fade it doesn't have the same psychological effect as having it chopped off.  It's the mind's response to trauma and maybe, with counselling, they could get better and simply no one's thought to try (accepting it as part of the Tranquil package).

randomcheeses wrote...
and their ability to reason logically. Why do they do whatever they're told, even though intellectually they should still be able to tell that doing action X is morally questionable/physically or mentally harmful/ not in their best interests in any way.  After all, we have emotions, but wer're not ruled by them. Losing said emotions should not equal turning into a doormat.

But without emotion they don't care.  They may acknowledge that something is harmful to them but it doesn't matter.  It's like the Loki Mechs in ME2.  You can shoot their leg off and they acknowledge it (they don't try to stand up and keep walking), but they don't stop.

randomcheeses wrote...
And does the Chantry/Templars do it on purpose, perhaps because if the mage's brain is not messed with to not only remove their emotions, but also their free will, they would be very, very pissed off and try to do everything they could to find a cure for the Rite in order to get their connection to the fade and their magic back.

Keep in mind that the Rite of Tranquility is, in most cases, voluntary so I don't see many mages getting upset if it didn't get rid of their emotions.  Aside from Kirkwall I got the impression that making a mage Tranquil as a punishment was rare (otherwise why would they need Aeonar).  Jowan in Origins is only being forced to be Tranquil because he's resorted to Blood Magic which means he's too dangerous to keep as an apprentice (high risk of possession), and they'd probably have to kill him if he took the Harrowing (same reason).  So rather than kill him they try to let him have at least some kind of life.

As for free will that's an emotional response rather than an intellectual concept; the desire, want, need to exert your will on the world.

if the Knight-Commander determines the mage isn't strong enough for the harrowing the Rite of Tranquility is performed. I thought the paperwork is signed to make Jowen tranquel because they suspected he might be a bloodmage - if they knew for sure it is an automatic death sentence.

[dragonflight288]

There are no trials for apostates and maleficarum. No prisons. There is death or the Circle. And the templars don't even stop to ask questions.

[DPSSOC]

sphinxess wrote...
if the Knight-Commander determines the mage isn't strong enough for the harrowing the Rite of Tranquility is performed. I thought the paperwork is signed to make Jowen tranquel because they suspected he might be a bloodmage - if they knew for sure it is an automatic death sentence.

Irving says Greigor has proof, or at least enough proof to convince him, and if memory serves they both signed off on the order (suggesting they both had to).

[dragonflight288]

Irving says Gregoire had eyewitness testimony. And the proof was probably the confiscated blood magic books.

[Wulfram]

Foolsfolly wrote...

FYI, it's Right of Tranquility not Rite.

No.  Tranquility is a Rite.  Annulment and Conscription are Rights.

[DreamerM]

DPSSOC wrote...

Irving says Greigor has proof, or at least enough proof to convince him, and if memory serves they both signed off on the order (suggesting they both had to).

They were completely right about Jowen, too. Even so, it's harsh that even curiosity about blood magic (you don't have to be a blood mage to want to read a book about it) will put you on the fast-track to Tranquility.

As for the inconsistencies in the Tranquil between DA:O and DA2, I'd like to point out that part of it might be the voice acting. The Tranquil in DA:O seemed like functional people: they can run stores, carry on conversations, and even think for themselves. That Tranquil you meet in the storeroom during Broken Circle will refuse to leave, even if you tell him that it's safer by the door, so he still has some agency of his own. The Wonders of Thedas shop in Denerium is run by a Tranquil who doesn't seem to take orders from anybody.

I wouldn't put it past the Kirkwall Templars to "train" their Tranquil to obey orders somehow. I don't think it's an automatic side-effect of being Tranquilized...

[Torax]

Just so we're accurate in regards to Jowain's case. They knew of his research and his closeness to the initiate. The proof of him being a "Blood Mage" was eye witness testimony of him practicing Blood Magic. That part is the area of becoming a Blood Mage and in that scenario the Judge is the Knight Commander. But he apparently already talked this over with Irving so it's not like he undermines him on the subject. Irving may have thought Jowain was salvageable but I also think Irving & Gregoir both underestimated what Jowain was capable of and how far he would go.

They were going to make him Tranquil as a solution for someone already troubled and giving enough warning signs that he was a danger to himself and those around him. What decisions did he make in all of Origins did not end up with a self destructive result?

As for Tranquil while they do lack emotions, they do have free will. Many are just more likely to decide that the assured housing, food and structure of life of which they were used to as being more preferential to the unknown outside world. Though some supposedly return to their families. They have the freedom to leave the Circle they just have to ask it. But since it's an unkind and unfair World that doesn't mean all Circles and Templars follow said rules. As long as they are not caught I'm sure many skirt and do things their own way. On both sides. I highly doubt all are innocent. Be them Templars or Mages. If DA2 teaches anything it's that both sides are guilty just too many seem to look at it with polarized lenses.

Modifié par Torax, 02 juillet 2011 - 11:30 .

[In Exile]

Torax wrote...

Just so we're accurate in regards to Jowain's case. They knew of his research and his closeness to the initiate. The proof of him being a "Blood Mage" was eye witness testimony of him practicing Blood Magic. That part is the area of becoming a Blood Mage and in that scenario the Judge is the Knight Commander. But he apparently already talked this over with Irving so it's not like he undermines him on the subject. Irving may have thought Jowain was salvageable but I also think Irving & Gregoir both underestimated what Jowain was capable of and how far he would go.

Irving didn't give a damn about Jowan. When he learned about Lilly, he wanted to use Jowan to prove a point about the Chantry; he's a sly political player, and Jowan was a sacrifice to shame the Chantry and put Gregoire and the rest of the templars on worse footing.

[DPSSOC]

In Exile wrote...
Irving didn't give a damn about Jowan. When he learned about Lilly, he wanted to use Jowan to prove a point about the Chantry; he's a sly political player, and Jowan was a sacrifice to shame the Chantry and put Gregoire and the rest of the templars on worse footing. 

Doesn't that require Irving to have predicted Jowan and Lilly attempting to break into the repository before giving the go ahead on the Rite of Tranquility?  When it's made clear (if you approach Irving) that he wasn't aware of what they were planning (though he finds out before you finish if you don't tell him).  Also I got the impression that Irving was looking for more of an eye for an eye thing.  He loses an apprentice so he's going to make sure the Chantry can't just handwave Lilly's involvement.

[In Exile]

DPSSOC wrote...
Doesn't that require Irving to have predicted Jowan and Lilly attempting to break into the repository before giving the go ahead on the Rite of Tranquility?

Irving already knows. If you play stupid enough when you go to see him, he essentially calls you out on the entire thing, and knows that it was Lily who saw that Jowan was going to be made Tranquil.

When it's made clear (if you approach Irving) that he wasn't aware of what they were planning (though he finds out before you finish if you don't tell him).  Also I got the impression that Irving was looking for more of an eye for an eye thing.  He loses an apprentice so he's going to make sure the Chantry can't just handwave Lilly's involvement.

I think Irving is very careful to have books on bloodmagic just lying around for anyone to take. It lets him expose the really dangerous elements of the Circle.

[TEWR]

Adaptation and evolution. Dwarves live near blue lyrium, which may be the reason why they don't enter the Fade when they dream. They do dream, just not like humans and elves do by entering the Fade.

Over time, their close proximity to blue lyrium may have caused their connection to the Fade to cease.

The Rite of Tranquility seems to be the harsh version of what the Dwarves underwent. Since magical research is severely frowned upon by the Chantry, they wouldn't be able to discover a better way.

[thats1evildude]

Two factors to consider:

1) As TPAM pointed out, dwarves lost their connection to the Fade through lyrium exposure through centuries, or possibly millenia, of living underground. The Rite of Tranquility occurs instantly, with no chance to adapt.

2) The Rite of Tranquility strikes me as being rather crude. The loss of emotions could be a side-effect. When the rite is performed, it could be damaging other portions of the brain in addition to severing the mage's link to the Fade.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 03 juillet 2011 - 06:11 .

[Dragonella1]

[quote]randomcheeses wrote...

So. . . Why? Why does cutting the connection to the fade tear away their emotions, and their ability to reason logically. Why do they do whatever they're told, even though intellectually they should still be able to tell that doing action X is morally questionable/physically or mentally harmful/ not in their best interests in any way. After all, we have emotions, but wer're not ruled by them. Losing said emotions should not equal turning into a doormat.

quote]

 
Emotions may not rule us but they play a crucial role in our motivation. Let's not forget that in Kirkwall the templars were quite 'generous' in applying corporal punishment. So it was a choice do what they wanted or suffer physical pain. For someone who can feel emotions the reasons to risk beating might be shame or guilty feeling when doing something morally unacceptable or compaction for potential victim, but for someone unable to feel emotions there is no reason at all to risk pain , which Tranquil still can feel. I can't recall any example of Tranquils doing something obviously harmful to him/herself when ordered by a templar.

[Huntress]

randomcheeses wrote...

This has been irritating me:

1. Dwarfs have no connection to the fade and they don't dream.

2. Dwarfs still have emotions.

3. A mage who undergoes the Rite of Tranquility loses their connection to the fade.

4. The also lose their emotions and from what we see in DA2 they suddenly do everything they are told by Templars. Even skeevy things. Ser Alrik, please go die in a fire forever, thanks.

So. . . Why? Why does cutting the connection to the fade tear away their emotions, and their ability to reason logically. Why do they do whatever they're told, even though intellectually they should still be able to tell that doing action X is morally questionable/physically or mentally harmful/ not in their best interests in any way. After all, we have emotions, but wer're not ruled by them. Losing said emotions should not equal turning into a doormat.

So does this mean that the Chantry is lying about the true extent of the RoT? Is it maybe possible that someome could be cut off from the fade and their magic without giving them what amounts to serious brain damage.
And does the Chantry/Templars do it on purpose, perhaps because if the mage's brain is not messed with to not only remove their emotions, but also their free will, they would be very, very pissed off and try to do everything they could to find a cure for the Rite in order to get their connection to the fade and their magic back.

Basically, are the Templar Order and the Chantry even bigger jerks than we realise?

Dwarves are born that way, soemthing about them working with lyrium for centuries have somewhat separated them from the fade, of course this same "Gift" as some call it, is making them unable to re-produce as much as the ones connected to the fade, dwarves are been born less every day.

Again they are NOT been sever disconnected from the fade, they are born unable to dream but they still can be forced to the fade by spirits. ( probably because they have a soul)

A normal person ( mage) been sever from the fade lose connection to emotions, like pride, jelousy, anger, the need for survival..  the process is done with magic spells, this is painful, shocking, traumatising, thats why none of the tranquil wish to talk about it.( they probably can't describe it because they do not feel )
I think is something like a brain operation, the moment the doctors put a sharp metalic object inside the brain it break's connections that are need it and this connection can't be put back together again, My mom had an operation and we didn't notes much changes on her until now, 5 years after, of course in the game it shows almost inmediately.

The break from the fade is not done little by little is done suddenly, and everyhting that this beasts are doing to the mage is probably done with mage been awake and aware. When people lose emotion or feeling they become broken.
Thats how I see tranquils, broken.

[Torax]

Actually in regards to the Tranquil. The one in Ostagar will tell a non mage about the process. Meanwhile Owain will not tell a mage player character how they are made tranquil because they asked him not to. Which is basically the equivalent to a how a harrowed mage is not supposed to tell the apprentices about what actually goes on during the harrowing. In other words Tranquil can freely tell anyone but a mage about the process. At least that is how it was portrayed in Origins anyhow.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Humans and elves develop using their connection to the fade to do all sorts of stuff, such as reason, make judgments, and feel. Dwarves, not having ever had a connection to the fade, have not made the fade a critical element of these processes.

You can see a sort of similar thing with some real world disabilities. A child born blind will have the vision centers of their brain partially re-purposed, and partially diminished in size to make room for other expanded sensory centers. Blind an adult whose brain has already developed, and you will not see nearly the same effect. Those born with deformed limbs or hands can make better use of them than someone who acquired a similar deformity during adulthood. In this fantasy case, dwarves have just taken this principle to the extreme, and are actually completely adapted to being unconnected to the fade, to the point of not being disabled at all, where as an adult who gets severed from the fade becomes horribly disabled.

[WhiteKnyght]

randomcheeses wrote...

This has been irritating me:

1. Dwarfs have no connection to the fade and they don't dream.

2. Dwarfs still have emotions.

3. A mage who undergoes the Rite of Tranquility loses their connection to the fade.

4. The also lose their emotions and from what we see in DA2 they suddenly do everything they are told by Templars. Even skeevy things. Ser Alrik, please go die in a fire forever, thanks.

Well if Feynriel's tranquility is any indication. I assume that the Templars send the mages into the fade before branding them. Which means the part of them with the feelings and emotions remains in the Fade, leaving the body as a cold emotionless husk.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Dwarves are a different species than elves or humans and presumably lacking a connection to the fade is a different experience for them, so they developed differently. So I don't think dwarves still having emotions means that the Chantry is lying about how the Rite works on human or elf  mages.

The Rite of Tranquility is not intended to enforce compliance. And according to the devs, as I understand, it doesn't actually do so. Its portrayal in DA 2 was a little at odds with DA 1, but I guess the implication is that, without emotions they concluded that in those particular sets of circumstances, complying with the Templar wishes was logical.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 05 juillet 2011 - 07:12 .