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[jlb524]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Marethari made it clear she thought the ancient elves wanted to abandon the Eluvian, while Merrill studied lore and gathered information from the shard. I'd put my trust in Merrill - who is informed - over Marethari, who is going by her speculation on the issue.

That never made any sense to me...where is she getting that idea from?

RE:  the Eluvian...Merrill knows the risks/dangers involved but thinks the possible reward is worth it.  It's not much different from Hawke dragging Merrill off to face a High Dragon, fight a bunch of pissed of qunari as they tear through Kirkwall, etc.

[Complistic]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Something I couldn't be bothered to read all of it

She said she'd be willing to sacrifice herself just to bring back something, any knowledge from the past. That's some seriously destructive behavior and it's neglectful on hawke's part to even consider helping her proceed down that path, regardless if he knows every single detail or not.

I've done the friendship path, it feels like you're helping her destroy herself. It is not a good feeling at all, but if you want to be like merrill and pretend everythings rainbows and butterfiles while she's messing around with demons go right ahead. They gave the option for a reason.

[LobselVith8]

Mr.House wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill only learned blood magic from Audacity - Gaider addressed that she studied lore and had extrapolated information from the shard when she was building the Eluvian. She learned blood magic to cleanse the shard - since she isn't corrupted like the elves in the Elven Ruins who were infected with the taint because of the broken shards of the Eluvian, Merrill clearly cleansed the shard of its corruption. Hawke telling Merrill that she shouldn't build a device that he's 100% ignorant about is thinking that he's right, which is ludicrious.

You still think the demon was true to it's word, which is not the case when the demon decided to try to kill Merrill AFTER the Keeper told her everything. The demon wanted the Keeper, it did not care for Merrill or the mirror, it tricked Merrill and used her to weaken the Keeper so he could have a body, it worked but the Keeper manged to screw him over, if he really wanted to help Merrill he would not have tried to kill her, it's simple as that.

I would agree with you if the demon tried to convince Merrill the Keeper was lieing, but that does not happen.

Audacity already had a body - why would it need anything else now? Marethari and Audacity were now an abomination, which is likely what Audacity wanted all along, especially if Marethari gives no indication that Merrill was in any actual danger from dealing with Audacity while trapped inside the totem. Marethari didn't "screw over" Audacity, Marethari gave it exactly what it wanted - a body, and a foothold in the real world.

[LobselVith8]

Complistic wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Something I couldn't be bothered to read all of it

She said she'd be willing to sacrifice herself just to bring back something, any knowledge from the past. That's some seriously destructive behavior and it's neglectful on hawke's part to even consider helping her proceed down that path, regardless if he knows every single detail or not.

I've done the friendship path, it feels like you're helping her destroy herself. It is not a good feeling at all, but if you want to be like merrill and pretend everythings rainbows and butterfiles while she's messing around with demons go right ahead. They gave the option for a reason.

In other words, Merrill is no different than The Warden who stays in Ferelden to save his people, despite the risks involved - when the pragmatic choice is to abandon Ferelden for Orlais and to join the Orlesian Wardens. Merrill wanted to save the People from their centuries old plight - that doesn't sound destructive to me.

[TEWR]

Complistic wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Something I couldn't be bothered to read all of it

She said she'd be willing to sacrifice herself just to bring back something, any knowledge from the past. That's some seriously destructive behavior and it's neglectful on hawke's part to even consider helping her proceed down that path, regardless if he knows every single detail or not.

I've done the friendship path, it feels like you're helping her destroy herself. It is not a good feeling at all, but if you want to be like merrill and pretend everythings rainbows and butterfiles while she's messing around with demons go right ahead. They gave the option for a reason.

Merrill's not the only person who can work with demons. The Warden and Hawke both can and trick the demons, which is what Merrill says is possible in DA2.

Merrill knows working with demons is risky, but she also knows a loophole to get around it.

[FJVP]

Something that I never understood is why Marethari never bothered to warn Merrill that demon would attempt to possess her if she managed to fix the mirror. And is it true that it would possess her? How did she know this?

[sphinxess]

Complistic wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Something I couldn't be bothered to read all of it

She said she'd be willing to sacrifice herself just to bring back something, any knowledge from the past. That's some seriously destructive behavior and it's neglectful on hawke's part to even consider helping her proceed down that path, regardless if he knows every single detail or not.

I've done the friendship path, it feels like you're helping her destroy herself. It is not a good feeling at all, but if you want to be like merrill and pretend everythings rainbows and butterfiles while she's messing around with demons go right ahead. They gave the option for a reason.

Rather estreme yes? You would rather have her act like Marethari who doesn't tell her clan anything before playing with the demon? When I go mountain climbing I dont think there is really any chance I will get lost but I still leave a map of where I plan to hike. Same with Merrill - she acts like a responsible adult and takes precautions.
If she gets possessed the mirror won't be fixed - she has had years to come up with trades the demon might go for that don't involve trading her body away.

Modifié par sphinxess, 02 juillet 2011 - 08:02 .

[jlb524]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I have no idea. The demon was firmly trapped within a statue - it could not have escaped through the mirror. The only way I could see how, would be if the demon gave her an activation spell for the mirror that actually turned out to be a spell that would free him from his prison, and then try and possess her.

I think that's one possible explanation, though probably not likely, given that the Eluvian is a portal that links to a place beyond the Fade.  I feel that's why Merrill did take the precautions she did...in the off-chance that some crazy crap like that did happen.

[FJVP]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I have no idea. The demon was firmly trapped within a statue - it could not have escaped through the mirror. The only way I could see how, would be if the demon gave her an activation spell for the mirror that actually turned out to be a spell that would free him from his prison, and then try and possess her.

That seems to be a possible explanation, though I can't see how in the world the mirror and the statue could connect in such a way that it would let the demon loose.

[congealeddgtllvr]

sphinxess wrote...

Complistic wrote...

She said she'd be willing to sacrifice herself just to bring back something, any knowledge from the past. That's some seriously destructive behavior and it's neglectful on hawke's part to even consider helping her proceed down that path, regardless if he knows every single detail or not.

I've done the friendship path, it feels like you're helping her destroy herself. It is not a good feeling at all, but if you want to be like merrill and pretend everythings rainbows and butterfiles while she's messing around with demons go right ahead. They gave the option for a reason.

Rather estreme yes? You would rather have her act like Marethari who doesn't tell her clan anything before playing with the demon? When I go mountain climbing I dont think there is really any chance I will get lost but I still leave a map of where I plan to hike. Same with Merrill - she acts like a responsible adult and takes precautions.
If she gets possessed the mirror won't be fixed - she has had years to come up with trades the demon might go for that don't involve trading her body away.

Because no mage was ever outsmarted/overpowered/beaten by a demon when they were sure they wouldn't be.  

[bleetman]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...


I have no idea. The demon was firmly trapped within a statue - it could not have escaped through the mirror. The only way I could see how, would be if the demon gave her an activation spell for the mirror that actually turned out to be a spell that would free him from his prison, and then try and possess her.

I think we can safely assume Audacity wasn't helping Merrill out of the kindness of it's heart. It wanted something, and if it's got the know how to restore the mirror, I don't consider it much of a stretch to assume this is essentially what it had in mind.

My problem with trusting that Merrill knows exactly what she's doing is that, well, her assertions just aren't backed up by anything that actually happens. By the time act three rolls around, even she's not convinced of it anymore, regardless of Hawke's stance on the matter. Given that, presumably, Audacity was the first time she'd dealt with a demon directly (and it gave her what she wanted without much hassle) I find her initial "s'cool, I know what I'm doing" argument a little suspect, especially when it evaporates a few years down the line, after a lot more experience in the matter.

Modifié par bleetman, 02 juillet 2011 - 08:11 .

[sphinxess]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

Complistic wrote...

She said she'd be willing to sacrifice herself just to bring back something, any knowledge from the past. That's some seriously destructive behavior and it's neglectful on hawke's part to even consider helping her proceed down that path, regardless if he knows every single detail or not.

I've done the friendship path, it feels like you're helping her destroy herself. It is not a good feeling at all, but if you want to be like merrill and pretend everythings rainbows and butterfiles while she's messing around with demons go right ahead. They gave the option for a reason.

Rather estreme yes? You would rather have her act like Marethari who doesn't tell her clan anything before playing with the demon? When I go mountain climbing I dont think there is really any chance I will get lost but I still leave a map of where I plan to hike. Same with Merrill - she acts like a responsible adult and takes precautions.
If she gets possessed the mirror won't be fixed - she has had years to come up with trades the demon might go for that don't involve trading her body away.

Because no mage was ever outsmarted/overpowered/beaten by a demon when they were sure they wouldn't be.  

Well we are just going to have to disagree on the risk then - however its not the fade where a demon pretty much only needs a invite to gain possession - the demon is stuck inside a statue...

Of course I could see it play out this way also:
Audacity: Ill trade you an Elf for the secret...
Merrill: I know of an Elf - would you like one with Lyrum markings?

Modifié par sphinxess, 02 juillet 2011 - 08:25 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

sphinxess wrote...

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Because no mage was ever outsmarted/overpowered/beaten by a demon when they were sure they wouldn't be.  

Well we are just going to have to disagree on the risk then - however its not the fade where a demon pretty much only needs a invite to gain possession - the demon is stuck inside a statue...

And I am 100% sure every other mage had a good reason why their case was the special/unique/safe one.  

[FJVP]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

FJVP wrote...

That seems to be a possible explanation, though I can't see how in the world the mirror and the statue could connect in such a way that it would let the demon loose.

No, no. I didn't mean that they would connect. This is the scenario I'm suggesting:

Demon: "So, fixed the mirror, did you? And it still doesn't work you say? Golly, that's because you need this spell/ritual/something to activate it! Now give it a go!"

*Merrill gives it a go*

Demon: "Ha! I lied! It doesn't activate the mirror, it was a trick! Instead, it's a spell/ritual/something that frees me from this cage!"

Merrill: "All this work for nothing? You are a very mean spirit."

Demon. "I know. Now stand still while I try to possess you."

Oh, in that case I would offer Anders to the demon instead. After all what's one more spirit inside him?

[congealeddgtllvr]

sphinxess wrote...
Of course I could see it play out this way also:
Audacity: Ill trade you an Elf for the secret...
Merrill: I know of an Elf - would you like one with Lyrum markings?

I'd be fine with this.  

[dragonflight288]

I honestly can't bring myself to rival Merrill because I honestly agree with what she's doing. I also recognize the dangers involved. I think the majority of the Merrill hate comes from the fact that her story cannot have a happy ending. She either gives up, gets exiled, or her entire clan is destroyed. But we never even get to see her make an attempt. I cannot speculate on if she would succeed or if she would fail. There isn't enough evidence to suggest either path.

But I happen to agree with her on the basis that the potential rewards outweigh the risks. Only the interference of Merethari prevents us from finding out for sure.

[RangerSG]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

That said, it's an interesting spin, and it 'can' be done without being demeaning to her.

Well, that's being more generous than a lot of people.  

As for all the people who know for a fact that Merrill was never in any danger, can you explain why she was worried about becoming an abomination herself by the end?  

I don't think Merrill wasn't in danger. I think she had an acceptable plan to deal with the risk, and far more understanding of the lore and issues at stake (being the person involved) than Marethari, who basically has washed her hands of the lore.

A lot of people look at Merrill's nature and think "Sweet, innocent, oblivious." But she's clear she went into the deal with her eyes open. She knew the risks and had protection against the worst possibility in Hawke.

On 'both' sides of the Merrill/Marethari debate, people pretty much take one side's words as gospel. Marethari relates what she was TOLD the demon's plan was. But that doesn't mean it really was that, or playing on her fears & overprotection, or that Merrill didn't have a way to deal that didn't involve becoming an Abomination.

IMHO, what it comes down to is Marethari had no faith in Merrill, and Merrill had lost trust in Marethari because of it. Neither could bridge that gap, and there's no way either of them 100% right or wrong. It comes down to the question of whether the PC believes that Merrill has a right to learn her lore and has planned for the dangers, or whether by using BM and making a deal with a demon she's abrogated the right to be trusted.

[dragonflight288]

I don't think Merrill wasn't in danger. I think she had an acceptable plan to deal with the risk, and far more understanding of the lore and issues at stake (being the person involved) than Marethari, who basically has washed her hands of the lore.

A lot of people look at Merrill's nature and think "Sweet, innocent, oblivious." But she's clear she went into the deal with her eyes open. She knew the risks and had protection against the worst possibility in Hawke.

On 'both' sides of the Merrill/Marethari debate, people pretty much take one side's words as gospel. Marethari relates what she was TOLD the demon's plan was. But that doesn't mean it really was that, or playing on her fears & overprotection, or that Merrill didn't have a way to deal that didn't involve becoming an Abomination.

IMHO, what it comes down to is Marethari had no faith in Merrill, and Merrill had lost trust in Marethari because of it. Neither could bridge that gap, and there's no way either of them 100% right or wrong. It comes down to the question of whether the PC believes that Merrill has a right to learn her lore and has planned for the dangers, or whether by using BM and making a deal with a demon she's abrogated the right to be trusted.

I think that's one of the best ways to put the Merrill/Merethari debate.

[In Exile]

RangerSG wrote...
I agree. I think Merill knew the boundaries she was willing to work within, and then brought adequate precaution (Hawke) to ensure the demon couldn't profit by freeing itself through her anyway. It's more a matter of Marethari being an overprotective parent, IMHO. And Hawke too, if you go rivalry. That said, it's an interesting spin, and it 'can' be done without being demeaning to her.

Merril was always careless with the demon, because she was arrogant. She thought that all she needed to do to "beat" the demon was isolate herself, and protect herself from posession. Hawke was there because Merril thought: "If Audacity tries to posses me, Hawke will kill me."

But Merril never thought Audacity would just take advantage of her isolating herself and push Marethari. Merril was never the target and Marethari got played - but Marethari got played because Merril tried to isolate herself and thought she "won" by isolating everyone from her actions.

She never took a second to think how a woman who loved her like a mother might act to her suddenly giving on on her role as First. Merril is short-sighted, and prideful.

Edit:

To go against the grain: Merril is a special kind of social idiot. She's obviously a very talented mage... but her various conversations show she has a fundamental lack of understand of what happens around her, and how people behave.

And that's no less a serious failing, and Audacity played her like a golden fiddle.

Modifié par In Exile, 02 juillet 2011 - 10:26 .

[dragonflight288]

I believe Merethari got played because Merethari allowed herself to be. The Dalish wanted Merrill gone, and they wanted to leave Kirkwall. They were waiting for more halla from a sister clan (picked that up from one of the random things said by an elf in Act 3).

Merethari was the only one who wanted Merrill back. You won't find another elf in the clan who supports that. They all hate and fear her. Merethari put herself in a position to be played by the demon as a result of her motherly love for Merrill.

[congealeddgtllvr]

In Exile wrote...

To go against the grain: Merril is a special kind of social idiot. She's obviously a very talented mage... but her various conversations show she has a fundamental lack of understand of what happens around her, and how people behave.

I agree.  It's very good and consistent writing IMO.  

I genuinely believe Merrill is brilliant in magical matters, but unfortunately life isn't as simple as "be really really good at one thing and everything else will just fall into place."  

[RangerSG]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

In Exile wrote...

To go against the grain: Merril is a special kind of social idiot. She's obviously a very talented mage... but her various conversations show she has a fundamental lack of understand of what happens around her, and how people behave.

I agree.  It's very good and consistent writing IMO.  

I genuinely believe Merrill is brilliant in magical matters, but unfortunately life isn't as simple as "be really really good at one thing and everything else will just fall into place."  

I'm going to disagree this far. I think Merrill AND Merathari were mistaken to think Merrill was the SOLE target of the demon. He had more than one game to play. I think he would have preferred the younger/stronger/more ambitious Merrill. But he was perfectly willing to escape through the Keeper as well. It's consistent with a Demon to play a double game.

And yes, I agree the M/M was one of the best written parts of the game. Probably 2nd after the Arishok, to me.