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Merrill rivalry


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#51
Foolsfolly

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Merrill's not the only person who can work with demons. The Warden and Hawke both can and trick the demons, which is what Merrill says is possible in DA2.

Merrill knows working with demons is risky, but she also knows a loophole to get around it.


Of course, nothing's forcing the demons to play fair. Over in the abomination thread we know there's a chance of demons forcing a possession. Merely working with a demon is a risk, you're hoping the thing doesn't try to possess you while you think you're making a bargain to it.

Merrill can know that all she wants...it's a terrible risk for no reward. If the mirror worked, what then? The Tevinters thought it was for communication over large distances, which I'm sure it is in a pinch. But we also know that they're really gateways somewhere.

...what if the thing on the other side is a horror unlike anything Thedas ever dealt with. We don't know what's on the other side. And by helping Merrill do this to 'save her people' she could doom how many others?

The simple fact that the mirror doesn't work, and that we know it doesn't work in the end, isn't justification. If BioWare made the Friendship path open up a hell dimension and have monsters of unknown origin tear into the country side would that remove people thinking Merrill was correct?

The fact that her incompetence made the finished mirror not work is a sign that she knew what she was doing?

#52
Torax

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I doubt she knew enough about the mirror to ever fix it. I found fault in her blindness she had to all things but getting the mirror to work. Including dealing with spirits to do so. I do think she is right that Demons are Spirits so she just sees them all as the same. As individuals I'm sure that some spirits(Demons) are malicious while others are not. I do wager that at least in regards to rules and boundaries, a Spirit of Desire is probably the one most likely to follow a contract or keep their end of a bargain. Since their lust/interest in the wants and wishes of mortals? They live for the deal and would likely see the idea of the deal/contract as the most important thing to their existence. This is possibly not the case for the Spirits that cling to other aspects/emotions. But since they are also individuals, it is likely that even Desire Spirits could differ greatly with some not even making deals? It's in the realm of possibility. Regardless Merrill is most likely right about that key thing, Demons and Spirits are one in the same.

#53
Foolsfolly

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I take the fact that a spirit made a jokey easy going guy who only wanted to be free, smell fresh air, and love beautiful girls into a terrorist as proof that Merrill's right about the spirit/demon thing.

#54
Torax

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Foolsfolly wrote...

I take the fact that a spirit made a jokey easy going guy who only wanted to be free, smell fresh air, and love beautiful girls into a terrorist as proof that Merrill's right about the spirit/demon thing.


Am I the only one that actually hates the character you mentioned? Was basically a giant whiney broody plot point that I can't get rid of until the end of Act 3...

#55
Foolsfolly

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No, no, no, Torax.

I loath Anders.

#56
FieryDove

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RangerSG wrote...

A lot of people look at Merrill's nature and think "Sweet, innocent, oblivious." But she's clear she went into the deal with her eyes open. She knew the risks and had protection against the worst possibility in Hawke.


I think Flemeth said it best:

Step carefully child, no path is darker than when your eyes are shut.

I took that to mean she was going into whatever...blindly.

#57
bebop50

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sphinxess wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

Complistic wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Ghost1041 wrote...

I've been wanting to try a rivalry friendship or romance, how does she act differently in a rivalry? Does she still want to run around and pet the demon trying to eat her? Thanks


The difference is that in Friendship, Hawke trusts Merrill with her quest with the Eluvian and her use of blood magic, while in Rivalry, Hawke thinks he knows better than Merrill about the Eluvian and has disdain for Merrill using blood magic. It's an issue of trust - does the human Hawke trust Merrill with ancient elven technology and magic that he's ignorant about, or does he tell her what to do and make her conform to his perspective?


A hawke that actually cares about Merrill wouldn't let her destroy herself. Which is basically what she's doing.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

In
the rival path you take a more active role in protecting her from the
demon and the path, this is a path for Hawkes who are anti blood magic
or just plain don't like it and don't want to see Merrill hurt. You are
still friends(and lovers if you romance her) but you have just made it
clear you don't approve of her working on the mirror.

Also Merrill likes to be snarky sometimes on the rival path :)



Isn't she snarky sometimes on the friendship path too?

Nah there's one part where she says 'Are you checking up on me, you probaly think I'm gonig to summon a pack of demons."


As much as I'd love to see snarky Merrill, I can't bring myself to do a rivalry with her. It feels so wrong.


You really should try it. I'm doing one now and it really does feel just so much better. She does get mad at first but she really needs someone to watch out for her.


Only if you think she's wrong about the Eluvian. And she has more knowledge about it than the PC, and probably Marethari as well. Could she be? Perhaps. Does that excuse Marethari's whisperings? 


I don't see how you can have a relationship with someone that treats you like a child. Merrill is the one that knows the most about the mirror and feels its a acceptable risk.


Sorry but Merrill's knowledge of the Eluvian is as limited as the keepers most of the knowledge she recieved was from the Demon and that was only enough to set her up, this is the same person who said spirits can't help being who they are and that she could protect herself then went and accepted another Demon's offer in the fade and betrayed you everthing falls back to Merrill accepting a demons help when she was taught not too,it  tempted her and she took the bait because she was the weakest willed. The fact that people blame anyone else but Merrill for her own arrogance surprise me. Plus if you played Morrigan's DLC you know it does much more than communicate and that another clan has a tome about it. Rivalry is the path were she acknowledges her faults. Hawke being a son of a mage knows what happens when you trust a demon so why would he encourge her and now Merrill knows as well <maybe>

#58
Foolsfolly

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FieryDove wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

A lot of people look at Merrill's nature and think "Sweet, innocent, oblivious." But she's clear she went into the deal with her eyes open. She knew the risks and had protection against the worst possibility in Hawke.


I think Flemeth said it best:

Step carefully child, no path is darker than when your eyes are shut.

I took that to mean she was going into whatever...blindly.


Very excellent point. Say what you will about Flemeth but she's definately knowledable on magic and all things ancient. The fact that Flemeth tried to give Merrill a small bit of insight (which Merrill true to fashion brushed off because she's too smart to listen to anyone other than herself) speaks volumes.

#59
Torax

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Foolsfolly wrote...

FieryDove wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

A lot of people look at Merrill's nature and think "Sweet, innocent, oblivious." But she's clear she went into the deal with her eyes open. She knew the risks and had protection against the worst possibility in Hawke.


I think Flemeth said it best:

Step carefully child, no path is darker than when your eyes are shut.

I took that to mean she was going into whatever...blindly.


Very excellent point. Say what you will about Flemeth but she's definately knowledable on magic and all things ancient. The fact that Flemeth tried to give Merrill a small bit of insight (which Merrill true to fashion brushed off because she's too smart to listen to anyone other than herself) speaks volumes.


Flemeth sees many things. She basically reads into most of the companions you can bring with you. So far I've only not seen a comment in regards to Varric or Aveline. Though truthfully I've not brought Aveline for some time. Varric is probably just the smartest one at knowing when not to talk. Like in front of an ancient witch standing in front of him.

#60
sphinxess

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Foolsfolly wrote...

Merrill's not the only person who can work with demons. The Warden and Hawke both can and trick the demons, which is what Merrill says is possible in DA2.

Merrill knows working with demons is risky, but she also knows a loophole to get around it.


Of course, nothing's forcing the demons to play fair. Over in the abomination thread we know there's a chance of demons forcing a possession. Merely working with a demon is a risk, you're hoping the thing doesn't try to possess you while you think you're making a bargain to it.

Merrill can know that all she wants...it's a terrible risk for no reward. If the mirror worked, what then? The Tevinters thought it was for communication over large distances, which I'm sure it is in a pinch. But we also know that they're really gateways somewhere.

...what if the thing on the other side is a horror unlike anything Thedas ever dealt with. We don't know what's on the other side. And by helping Merrill do this to 'save her people' she could doom how many others?

The simple fact that the mirror doesn't work, and that we know it doesn't work in the end, isn't justification. If BioWare made the Friendship path open up a hell dimension and have monsters of unknown origin tear into the country side would that remove people thinking Merrill was correct?

The fact that her incompetence made the finished mirror not work is a sign that she knew what she was doing?


If it opened to a hell dimension that would prove the Dalish keepers were wrong I doubt I would blame Merrill - Merrill is a product of Dalish beliefs - they want Elfish technology restored - its why they meet every ten years or so - to trade information they have discovered. My favorite short fan fiction about the mirror has it open to the place the Elven gods were stuck and they aren't at all happy with what the Humans have done to the Elves.

I'm not sure where incompetence comes into the picture - lack of knowledge sure... Morrigan gets a mirror to work but she had a lot more to go on than just a tainted shard...

Modifié par sphinxess, 03 juillet 2011 - 12:22 .


#61
Foolsfolly

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If it opened to a hell dimension that would prove the Dalish keepers were wrong I doubt I would blame Merrill - Merrill is a product of Dalish beliefs - they want Elfish technology restored


Wait, wait, wait, wait. Before I go any farther in your post I must say I've had a good laugh. Even in the possible event where Merrill opens up a dimension were Cthulhu himself crawls out and devours Thedas it is not Merrill's fault.

That, sir, is hilarious. The loyalty Merrill inspires in people is astonishing.

My favorite short fan fiction about the mirror has it open to the place the Elven gods were stuck and they aren't at all happy with what the Humans have done to the Elves.


Fun theory....not sure what fan fic has to do anything here...but cool theory.

I'm not sure where incompetence comes into the picture - lack of knowledge sure... Morrigan gets a mirror to work but she had a lot more to go on than just a shard...


Like a whole mirror and the fact that she spent 20-30 something years at the feet of Flemeth to learn everything about anything Flemeth wanted Morrigan to know. Plus she has at least two of Flemeth's grimoires. Oh, and a whole mirror which she got up and running properly because she's knowledgeable on the forgotten arcane arts thanks to Flemeth.

These are all things that Merrill's lacking. She's not even a knowledgeable source for blood magic since even that's frowned upon by the Dalish. She just learned that from a demon when Hawke meets her. She's not some kind of experienced old hand at dealing with demons.

And incompetence fits in with the fact that she failed. If I took an old car and said I'd get it to work and then rejected any opinion that contradicted my own inexperience opinion on cars (and trust me I know as much about repairing cars as I do space shuttles) and then when I'm finished the thing didn't start...I'm incompetent for not even taking into consideration the opinions and history of others into my tinkering.

There's also the fact that a car isn't going to open up to another realm where who knows what dwells. But if a car did that then I'd have to not know that's possible and repair the car in a densely populated area, because that's exactly what Merrill did.

Actually it's more like building a fusion reactor in an apartment complex only using wikipedia for a general idea on how fusion reactors work. She was a danger to so many people and she never takes that into consideration.

#62
LobselVith8

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congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Because no mage was ever outsmarted/overpowered/beaten by a demon when they were sure they wouldn't be.  


Merrill addresses that all spirits are dangerous, and cautions Hawke to be careful if he deals with the Profane Abomination. Merrill knows full well that her plan could end up getting her killed, but the potential benefit to the People across Thedas could irrevocably and immeasurably change their lives for the better. Only Merrill has read the lore she gathered about the Eluvian, only Merrill is informed about the ancient elven technology that baffles the protagonist. Merrill couldn't deny that things could go wrong, but the risk could benefit elves across Thedas, so she's taking the risk. It's no different than The Warden who stays in Ferelden to gather an army, even though it's likely a suicide mission, one that Gaider has addressed that Duncan himself wouldn't have taken.

Marethari was careless in putting her suspicions above her clan, endangering their lives when she accepted a demon into her body, and then expecting Merrill and Hawke to deal with the consequences of the Keeper's actions. Was Merrill in any danger from the totem? Marethari gives the impression that she wasn't, that it was the Eluvian that was the threat to Merrill, but it's clear this is all her suspicion. Was Marethari manipulated by Audacity? Possibly. I think so. People want to treat Merrill as though she was an idiot for having a perspective that differs from their own, and I think that's ridiculous, particularly when Merrill putting her life on the line is no different than The Warden doing the same during the Fifth Blight.

#63
LobselVith8

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Foolsfolly wrote...

Merrill can know that all she wants...it's a terrible risk for no reward. If the mirror worked, what then? The Tevinters thought it was for communication over large distances, which I'm sure it is in a pinch. But we also know that they're really gateways somewhere.

...what if the thing on the other side is a horror unlike anything Thedas ever dealt with. We don't know what's on the other side. And by helping Merrill do this to 'save her people' she could doom how many others?


The same could be said of The Warden heading to Haven during the Fifth Blight. How did he know completing the tests in the ruins would lead to the Urn of Sacred Ashes, and not some horror that could eclipse the Archdemon and the darkspawn horde?

FieryDove wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

A lot of people look at Merrill's nature and think "Sweet, innocent, oblivious." But she's clear she went into the deal with her eyes open. She knew the risks and had protection against the worst possibility in Hawke.


I think Flemeth said it best:

Step carefully child, no path is darker than when your eyes are shut.

I took that to mean she was going into whatever...blindly.


I took it to mean that Merrill should be careful, which she is, particularly since she asks Hawke to accompany her to Sundermount after seven years of working on the Eluvian. I'm not sure why people act like a piece of technology that baffled the greatest minds of the Imperium shouldn't be some effort for a lone Dalish elf workng on, as Gaider had addressed, lore she gathered and information she extrapolated from the shard.

bebop50 wrote...

sphinxess wrote...

I don't see how you can have a relationship with someone that treats you like a child. Merrill is the one that knows the most about the mirror and feels its a acceptable risk.


Sorry but Merrill's knowledge of the Eluvian is as limited as the keepers most of the knowledge she recieved was from the Demon and that was only enough to set her up, 


Wrong. Gaider addressed that Merrill was building the Eluvian from lore she had gathered and information she had extrapolated from the shard.

bebop50 wrote...

this is the same person who said spirits can't help being who they are and that she could protect herself then went and accepted another Demon's offer in the fade and betrayed you 


Excuse me, but are you referencing the same quest that railroads every single character, except Anders, into betraying Hawke after less than a minute of dialogue?

bebop50 wrote...

The fact that people blame anyone else but Merrill for her own arrogance surprise me.


If you look at the "Giving Isabela back to the Arishok" thread, there are more than enough people who continually address that people should be held accountable for their own actions. Merrill isn't to blame for a grown adult - the Keeper - making a decision. Merrill isn't to blame for the clan attempting to murder Merrill and Hawke in cold blood if they are told the truth.

bebop50 wrote...

Plus if you played Morrigan's DLC you know it does much more than communicate and that another clan has a tome about it.


Morrigan is vague about the Eluvian because the writers don't want to explain what it is exactly. That's why Hawke can never get Merrill to give a detailed explanation - the writers want to keep the audience in suspense.

#64
Foolsfolly

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Marethari was careless in putting her suspicions above her clan


No. Marethari's crime is that she loved Merrill so much that it clouded her judgment. Had she only looked at Merrill as a student and not as some sort of surrogate daughter than when she banished Merrill she would have moved the clan away from danger and taken a new student. Whatever happens to Merrill after that point is completely up to Merrill.

Instead, she stalled her clan, left them up a mountain, and eventually took a bullet meant for Merrill because she loved Merrill too much.

Sad. But it was a huge mistake. She hung around for 7 years out of the hope that Merrill would abandon her ways and return to her people.

The Keeper's 100% correct in assuming that Merrill could not take on the demon in the statue. It needed a way out and it would have told Merrill anything and she'd have done it thinking it was something to fix the mirror. And then with the demon out who knows what would have happened. In the Fade we saw that she's capable of siding with demons with the littlest of bait.

The Keeper couldn't bare to have that. I cannot tell you what the Keeper and Demon said, or if they fought before the Keeper submitted. We have no idea, it happened off camera. But I know the Keeper was right about Merrill. Had she not become an Abomination then it would have been Merrill up there that we put down.

#65
LobselVith8

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Foolsfolly wrote...

The Keeper's 100% correct in assuming that Merrill could not take on the demon in the statue. It needed a way out and it would have told Merrill anything and she'd have done it thinking it was something to fix the mirror. And then with the demon out who knows what would have happened. In the Fade we saw that she's capable of siding with demons with the littlest of bait.


I agree that Marethari loved Merrill like a daughter, but I disagree that Merrill couldn't deal with Audacity. For all we know, it was Audacity's plan all along to get Marethari, especially if it knew that Merrill could try to rebuild the Eluvian while anticipating that Marethari would react like she did. From what Marethari said, she didn't even think Merrill was in danger of getting possessed by Audacity simply by dealing with the entrapped demon.

Foolsfolly wrote...

The Keeper couldn't bare to have that. I cannot tell you what the Keeper and Demon said, or if they fought before the Keeper submitted. We have no idea, it happened off camera. But I know the Keeper was right about Merrill. Had she not become an Abomination then it would have been Merrill up there that we put down.


I respectfully disagree. It doesn't seem that Audacity could have possessed Merrill from the totem, and I have doubts over Marethari's speculation about the Eluvian, especially because Marethari's argument sounds precisely like what she thinks will be the result of the Eluvian rather than any actual evidence she has.

#66
congealeddgtllvr

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LobselVith8 wrote...

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Because no mage was ever outsmarted/overpowered/beaten by a demon when they were sure they wouldn't be.  

Merrill knows full well that her plan could end up getting her killed, but the potential benefit to the People across Thedas could irrevocably and immeasurably change their lives for the better.


If you're comfortable helping Merrill potentially sacrifice herself that's cool bro.  I'm not.  

People want to treat Merrill as though she was an idiot for having a perspective that differs from their own, and I think that's ridiculous, particularly when Merrill putting her life on the line is no different than The Warden doing the same during the Fifth Blight.


Who are these people?  I am not one of them.  I have commented upthread how I think she is brilliant in some ways and oblivious in others.  I view her as a complicated, nuanced girl.  You view her as a flawless ideal and potential martyr.  We can both enjoy her in our own ways.  

#67
sphinxess

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Foolsfolly wrote...

If it opened to a hell dimension that would prove the Dalish keepers were wrong I doubt I would blame Merrill - Merrill is a product of Dalish beliefs - they want Elfish technology restored


Wait, wait, wait, wait. Before I go any farther in your post I must say I've had a good laugh. Even in the possible event where Merrill opens up a dimension were Cthulhu himself crawls out and devours Thedas it is not Merrill's fault.

That, sir, is hilarious. The loyalty Merrill inspires in people is astonishing.



My favorite short fan fiction about the mirror has it open to the place the Elven gods were stuck and they aren't at all happy with what the Humans have done to the Elves.


Fun theory....not sure what fan fic has to do anything here...but cool theory.



I'm not sure where incompetence comes into the picture - lack of knowledge sure... Morrigan gets a mirror to work but she had a lot more to go on than just a shard...


Like a whole mirror and the fact that she spent 20-30 something years at the feet of Flemeth to learn everything about anything Flemeth wanted Morrigan to know. Plus she has at least two of Flemeth's grimoires. Oh, and a whole mirror which she got up and running properly because she's knowledgeable on the forgotten arcane arts thanks to Flemeth.

These are all things that Merrill's lacking. She's not even a knowledgeable source for blood magic since even that's frowned upon by the Dalish. She just learned that from a demon when Hawke meets her. She's not some kind of experienced old hand at dealing with demons.

And incompetence fits in with the fact that she failed. If I took an old car and said I'd get it to work and then rejected any opinion that contradicted my own inexperience opinion on cars (and trust me I know as much about repairing cars as I do space shuttles) and then when I'm finished the thing didn't start...I'm incompetent for not even taking into consideration the opinions and history of others into my tinkering.

There's also the fact that a car isn't going to open up to another realm where who knows what dwells. But if a car did that then I'd have to not know that's possible and repair the car in a densely populated area, because that's exactly what Merrill did.

Actually it's more like building a fusion reactor in an apartment complex only using wikipedia for a general idea on how fusion reactors work. She was a danger to so many people and she never takes that into consideration.



The Dalish are dying out - its an acceptable risk to them to restore old Elven technology. Of course from a meta-game prespective we know the mirror doesn't lead to a horde of Demons that will come bounding out of the mirror. You could say the same thing for Morrigan that there is a .001 chance she crosses some wires and blows the world up. Then again she is carrying a gods soul in her belly...that doesn't seem all that smart.

Once again where has she failed in restoration? She returned to the mountain after working on the mirror for about 8 years <allowing 2 years to clean the taint from the shard> to try to get more information from the demon. The keeper prevents this from ever happening. Does this mean Merrill has failed? There are plenty of sources where she can continue her research and in about 4 years the Dalish will be having their technology get together. Its an ongoing project.

Its like the golems for the Dwarves. The humans dont need them so its easy to say distroying the anvil is the best policy - but from the Dwarf perspective - I doubt Orzammer would even be there if it wasn't for the use of golems hundeds of years ago.

Modifié par sphinxess, 03 juillet 2011 - 01:17 .


#68
DarkAmaranth1966

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I did the rivalry romance with her. At one point you will think you are going to lose her entirely, but to me it does feel better, I am not giving in to her naive ideas and am asking her to grow up and see the real world outside the clan, which is what she needs.

#69
FieryDove

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Foolsfolly wrote...


Marethari was careless in putting her suspicions above her clan


No. Marethari's crime is that she loved Merrill so much that it clouded her judgment. Had she only looked at Merrill as a student and not as some sort of surrogate daughter than when she banished Merrill she would have moved the clan away from danger and taken a new student. Whatever happens to Merrill after that point is completely up to Merrill.

Instead, she stalled her clan, left them up a mountain, and eventually took a bullet meant for Merrill because she loved Merrill too much.

Sad. But it was a huge mistake. She hung around for 7 years out of the hope that Merrill would abandon her ways and return to her people.

The Keeper's 100% correct in assuming that Merrill could not take on the demon in the statue. It needed a way out and it would have told Merrill anything and she'd have done it thinking it was something to fix the mirror. And then with the demon out who knows what would have happened. In the Fade we saw that she's capable of siding with demons with the littlest of bait.

The Keeper couldn't bare to have that. I cannot tell you what the Keeper and Demon said, or if they fought before the Keeper submitted. We have no idea, it happened off camera. But I know the Keeper was right about Merrill. Had she not become an Abomination then it would have been Merrill up there that we put down.


I agree with you except the last part, I don't think the keeper submitted in the normal sense, she became the prison for the demon.

I think how it played out shows the keeper paying the price that all Blood mages face sooner or later...possession. (or at least many attempts from the demon/demons to do so).

The way the keeper said *she paid the price* she knew exactly what she was doing and until she was done telling Hawke/Merrill about it the keeper was still in control. Once all was said she gave up and let herself and the demon be killed. It was the only way since Merrill would not give up on the mirror no matter what Hawke said or did, friend or rival.

Just my take on it.

#70
TEWR

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Foolsfolly wrote...


Of course, nothing's forcing the demons to play fair. Over in the abomination thread we know there's a chance of demons forcing a possession. Merely working with a demon is a risk, you're hoping the thing doesn't try to possess you while you think you're making a bargain to it.


What I meant was that demons try to trick people, but if a person like Merrill, Hawke, or the Warden also tricks them, they're screwed. That's what Merrill tells Hawke is possible. That you can work with a demon and come out all right, so long as you're careful and know what you're doing.

Hawke can get information from both the Hunger Abomination in the Primeval Thaig and Torpor, and then kill them.

The Warden can trick Kitty into thinking he'll let her possess Amalia.

Merrill can know that all she wants...it's a terrible risk for no reward. If the mirror worked, what then? The Tevinters thought it was for communication over large distances, which I'm sure it is in a pinch. But we also know that they're really gateways somewhere.

...what if the thing on the other side is a horror unlike anything Thedas ever dealt with. We don't know what's on the other side. And by helping Merrill do this to 'save her people' she could doom how many others?


Doubtful. Morrigan's had been active for some time when the Warden comes and nothing came through. Likewise, if there was something dangerous on the other side then Morrigan wouldn't have gone through with the Warden to raise their child.

The simple fact that the mirror doesn't work, and that we know it doesn't work in the end, isn't justification. If BioWare made the Friendship path open up a hell dimension and have monsters of unknown origin tear into the country side would that remove people thinking Merrill was correct?

The fact that her incompetence made the finished mirror not work is a sign that she knew what she was doing?


On the friendship path you can tell her to continue studying the Eluvian, so I imagine that she'll one day get it working.

I wouldn't call it incompetence. She's gotten farther than anyone else has. That to me doesn't fit incompetence. Only Morrigan has gotten any farther than her, but people have to take into account Morrigan had an entire book on the Eluvian. Merrill has only a few bits of lore and the mirror she made.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 03 juillet 2011 - 01:26 .


#71
Foolsfolly

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The same could be said of The Warden heading to Haven during the Fifth Blight. How did he know completing the tests in the ruins would lead to the Urn of Sacred Ashes, and not some horror that could eclipse the Archdemon and the darkspawn horde?


That is a huge stretch. But to put that down easily allow me to state that the ashes were in this realm. Opening a gate into an unknown is far more dangerous than finding soot that's always been in this realm.

It's far better to say that letting Werewolves kill the Dalish is similar. Because, sure you get powerful allies to defeat the darkspawn. But it's an infectious disease that cannot be removed without the now dead Keeper. So even if one Werewolf only infects one other person in its whole life the chain reaction would cause a plague of flesh eating monsters. Think zombie apocalypse only they're faster, agile, and stronger than zombies.

And may I state for the record that any Warden who does that choice is an idiot for that reason. Even the epilogue for that choice is negative since the werewolves loose themselves into being feral beasts again.

I took it to mean that Merrill should be careful, which she is, particularly since she asks Hawke to accompany her to Sundermount after seven years of working on the Eluvian.


She asks Hawke to kill her if she turns into an Abomination. Yes, brownie points for knowing you're limits...but that's like saying "Hey, I don't think I can make this jump" and then jumping. Bringing Hawke along is not like attaching a bungie cord to her before jumping. It's like calling an ambulance ahead of time instead.

In other words, Hawke isn't there to prevent anything, only to clean up her mess when she falls. That isn't preparedness. And a clear sign that she's walking into that expecting to fail, which usually means you fail. Who wins a fight they go into thinking they're going to fail?

I'm not sure why people act like a piece of technology that baffled the greatest minds of the Imperium shouldn't be some effort for a lone Dalish elf workng on, as Gaider had addressed, lore she gathered and information she extrapolated from the shard.


Word of God means nothing. Nothing. The game has no evidence of such lore. Has no evidence of anything other than the fact that she built a mirror that doesn't reflect anything. I just invented a pencil that doesn't write! I'm a genius!

Just because a dev after the fact said, "Oh, yeah. She totally did...stuff we didn't allude to at the time..." is no defense. It's just a dev covering their tracks that there were things that they should have handled better.

See Gaider's comment that Ogres being present at the First Blight before the Qunari arrived is not a plot inconsistency by saying it's a story that hasn't been told yet. Well, sorry but we only know what's in the games and not what you're intending to fix in a later story (or far more likely a codex entry).

Wrong. Gaider addressed that Merrill was building the Eluvian from lore she had gathered and information she had extrapolated from the shard.


Information better stated in the game's story, don't you think? Again, Word of God is not a defense. We're all working with the same information provided by the game. If it's not in-game it doesn't matter.

Because Word of God is almost always a defense of the guys who made the story. It's them answering something they didn't answer in the book, film, video game, or show likely because they didn't notice it at the time.

It's almost never some small bit of information that wasn't important to the story, like saying Merrill had a sister who became a hunter of another tribe. Cool information but nothing to do with the story which is why it was left out of the story. If her using the shard to gleam answers was important (and it is) and that they knew of that before people asked about it then it should have been in the game.

Morrigan is vague about the Eluvian because the writers don't want to explain what it is exactly. That's why Hawke can never get Merrill to give a detailed explanation - the writers want to keep the audience in suspense.


I kind of agree. I think it's a mistake. When you're asking the player to make a choice on something you need to tell them what they're making a choice on.

#72
TEWR

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Just because a dev after the fact said, "Oh, yeah. She totally did...stuff we didn't allude to at the time..." is no defense. It's just a dev covering their tracks that there were things that they should have handled better.


I think Gaider said that before the game was released.

#73
sphinxess

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Sorry, word of god is always counted in these threads - its like when word of god was used to say Meredith takes over the decision on calling the right of annulment from the chantry when the grand cleric is exploded. Not all of us like it - but we no longer argue it.

#74
LobselVith8

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congealeddgtllvr wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill knows full well that her plan could end up getting her killed, but the potential benefit to the People across Thedas could irrevocably and immeasurably change their lives for the better.


If you're comfortable helping Merrill potentially sacrifice herself that's cool bro.  I'm not.  


Hawke asks every companion to potentially sacrifice themselves every time he conscripts one of them for a dangerous mission.

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

People want to treat Merrill as though she was an idiot for having a perspective that differs from their own, and I think that's ridiculous, particularly when Merrill putting her life on the line is no different than The Warden doing the same during the Fifth Blight.


Who are these people?  I am not one of them.  I have commented upthread how I think she is brilliant in some ways and oblivious in others.  I view her as a complicated, nuanced girl.  You view her as a flawless ideal and potential martyr.  We can both enjoy her in our own ways.  


I was addressing some people in general from the different threads where Merrill is addressed, including some of the people who post at the unofficial Dragon Age Wiki. And no, simply because I don't disagree with Merrill doesn't mean I view her as flawless - that's a strawman argument made by people who expect everyone to disagree with Merrill's use of blood magic and rebuilding the Eluvian.

#75
LobselVith8

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DarkAmaranth1966 wrote...

I did the rivalry romance with her. At one point you will think you are going to lose her entirely, but to me it does feel better, I am not giving in to her naive ideas and am asking her to grow up and see the real world outside the clan, which is what she needs.


Merrill's desire to help the People are no more naive than The Warden's desire to use the treaties to save Ferelden from the Fifth Blight. Merrill's denied the chance to give her people back a part of their history, while The Warden is successful.

FieryDove wrote...

I think how it played out shows the keeper paying the price that all Blood mages face sooner or later...possession. (or at least many attempts from the demon/demons to do so).


So the price of blood magic is grown adults making decisions of their own free will? Because no one forced Marethari to risk her clan's life to become an abomination on mere speculation alone.

FieryDove wrote...

The way the keeper said *she paid the price* she knew exactly what she was doing and until she was done telling Hawke/Merrill about it the keeper was still in control. Once all was said she gave up and let herself and the demon be killed. It was the only way since Merrill would not give up on the mirror no matter what Hawke said or did, friend or rival.

Just my take on it.


The Keeper knew she was following through on her opinion - potentially leading to the foolish members of the clan trying to murder Hawke and Merrill in cold blood if Hawke doesn't pander to them.